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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 06 2012 01:08 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:56 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:49 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 06 2012 00:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:23 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? Yeah it's causing rifts. Perhaps people are overreacting. But if the majority of people getting put out by this debate are people defending the use of racist terms as insults (which I think is the case), then I won't shed a tear if they end up leaving the community. Outsiders? They will see a community trying to stamp out immature offensive behaviour. I think that that is a positive aspect that will appeal to outsiders. I think the majority on the defensive here are more against the scale of the reaction because they don't find the issue a big deal, not in favor of racist terms. That's a pretty big difference. Don't simply write off people as 'oh, they like racist terms', because that's an easy way to dismiss reasonable objections. Unless people actually say that. Personally, I'd rather solidify the existing community than grab new people. If you lose your dedicated fanbase in favor of completely new people, that is not necessarily good. This event isn't going to do that, but it's not helpful. I can only speak for myself here, but I'm disgusted with the modern SC2 community. Why would I want to support it with this kind of screeching, self-righteous behavior in the name of TEH ESPORTS that flares up? I'd rather have a vulgar stream that I don't have to actually watch than an insufferable everyone-else that would discourage me participating at all. Well I disagree that the majority are against the scale. But let's say you're right. What should Destiny's punishment be (if anything)? I mean, all in all, he's been de-featured from TL, and he's parted ways with Quantic (which according to Destiny doesn't hurt him that much anyway). I believe these are reasonable reactions by private companies towards a person being rather offensive. When I say majority, I'm referring to majority of those who are also against what happened, not majority of the whole group ('majority on the defensive', as I put it). I don't think many people are supporting racist language so much as they don't think it's a big deal in the context of a ladder game. I hope that's the case, anyway. What should it be? Well, I'm not really in a place to say that, so I can't give you a great answer. It should be something internal between Destiny and Quantic, if anything. My first thought would be 'as long as it's on his stream and not in tournament play, I don't care, people can choose not to support the stream (defeature, not watch)', but that doesn't work - he's still interacting with other players if he's typing it out to them, and you can't just decide to not play him. Like I said, not going to be able to give anything conclusive. 'Just a ladder game' is a bit of a cop-out I think. Just like people use the same 'It's just the internet' excuse. If it was a one-off, then I could see it. However Destiny has a repetitive history of this behaviour. Pretty soon it becomes apparent that this is an individual that you have a problem with, not an isolated incident. Show nested quote +
I don't agree with making it a large public issue and bringing the sponsor into it, however. If the person involved messaged Quantic and told them 'hey, this isn't good, talk to him about it', and then Destiny still decided to cut ties due to the issue, I'd be happier with it.
Isn't that basically what happened though? From the OP: Show nested quote +I've talked to Mark a lot over the past couple days, and we've come to the decision that it'd be best for both of our relationships for me to step aside from Quantic. I really appreciate the help/support from Quantic, and everyone on it, and everything they've done for me up to this point, but I feel like I've become more of a liability than an asset to them. I'm not about to release some hollow/empty apologies that mean nothing, and I can't even guarantee that I won't let any "bigot/racist/hateful/nazi/apocalyptic" speech cross my stream again.
Just replying to this for clarity's sake, since we're being pretty civil, and I was away.
'Just a ladder game' isn't a cop-out to me because it's being compared with the alternative, a tournament game. The two are different, and here is why: if generic streamed game content offends you, you can turn off the stream. You only miss out on the content which you didn't want to see anyways, so that is fair. If conduct in a tournament setting offend you though, you can't 'just not watch' without missing out on a ton of other stuff. You shouldn't have to miss MMA play because you want to avoid watching Combat-EX or whatever. So there's a bigger externality. Furthermore, tournaments draw in more 'average' viewers and sponsorship attention (and are just expected to be more professional), while stream viewership is much more fans and player benefit - it's just that player who loses out if he pushes away interests.
There are a couple flaws with this, because nothing is that simple. Streamed ladder games still involve someone on the other side that's seeing what you're typing - I'd mind less if whatever offensive player said it on stream rather than typing it to the player, because that removes that problem. Orb/Destiny cases don't fall into this, so there's still some problem. Two, a player's stream represents their team now more than ever, so it's not a fully internalized cost. It makes sense that there is some sort of reaction - but in my view, it should be directly between the damaged party (who gets insulted) and the team (who is at risk). Not between them, the sponsors, and ten trillion angry nerds FOR ESPORTS.
I don't like the idea of dragging the whole, angry community into it because it promotes kneejerk reactions. The sheer audibility of a bunch of people complaining means you're forced to make a response that may be unnecessary. It may force an overreaction (what if Razer took action against Quantic on a whole?). It's something that could have been avoided if this was handled privately rather than the TL/Reddit standard procedure of name and shame and 100+ page thread.
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Destiny being the personality he is probably should have never joined up with Quantic in the first place. This was completely expected given the circumstances, and like they said, the best outcome for both parties.
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I hate people who cry over racism and other "discriminating" things so god damn much.
Racism is funny. I never watched Destiny before but now im leaving his stream up all day every day.
Deal with it.
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On May 06 2012 03:01 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 02:29 Chocobo wrote:On May 06 2012 01:27 Mordiford wrote:On May 06 2012 01:24 Chocobo wrote:On May 06 2012 01:08 Mordiford wrote:On May 06 2012 00:47 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:45 Mordiford wrote:On May 05 2012 23:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:17 Swift118 wrote:
Im not sure who is more sad; Destiny or all the neckbeards hating on him. I can answer that for you- it's side who is trying to control other people's actions. You still seem to be twisting this around. Destiny can do whatever the fuck he wants, he just has to deal with the consequences that come with it. He's in this situation because of his own behavior. I'm sorry, but no. You are the one who isn't seeing this clearly. Just because Destiny physically has the ability to do what he wants, that doesn't mean that his opponents aren't trying to control his actions. And the "consequences that come with it" have dramatically changed because these people, acting as morality police, have decided to create more serious consequences for him. This is a very extreme example, but suppose you lived in North Korea and got thrown in prison for not showing enough sadness at Kim Jong Il's funeral. Could I say "hey, you can do whatever you want, but now you're just dealing with the consequences of your actions"? The point is that if the consequences are more extreme than what is appropriate for the situation, it's not a good thing. There is nothing wrong with people letting Razer know that they don't like Destiny. Yes. There. Is. YES THERE IS. I can't say this enough times! If you don't like Destiny's stream, don't watch it. Don't support him. You can even stop watching competition that he is entered in. But if something doesn't please you... just avoid it! You don't need to try to have it changed, or have it punished because you don't like it! If other people are entertained by it, let them enjoy it and you can go off and enjoy something else. But the TL community wasn't mature enough to do that. Instead, the attitude of "fuck that guy, I don't like him, I want him to conform to my demands or else I'm going to do whatever I can to harm him" was used. That attitude is not fucking OK. There is something wrong with doing that. And on a secondary level, it's bad for the growth of E-sports. Do you know what happens if this kind of action becomes more common? If Razer is being threatened with boycotts and PR nightmares on a frequent basis, they will simply stop sponsoring gaming teams, because it will stop being worth it. Mass-complaining to a sponsor and threatening boycotts or public accusations of "this company doesn't care if people are racist!" is an action that should only be used as a last resort. Instead, this time it was one of the first ideas that people came up with, and the unthinking mob just followed along with it. If people tried to make Thorzain use inappropriate language and slurs by complaining to Razer that mouz.Thorzain is too vanilla, it would accomplish fuck all in terms of actually hurting Mouz and just make Razer think the community is retarded. Sure, some people who are squeaky clean would be immune to it. Many others, included well-liked players like Huk, have had their moments of inappropriate language, using "faggot" or "nigga" or whatever else. Get a big enough crowd and a handful of ugly screenshots and half the players out there could potentially get dropped from their teams. Well, I think the situation of an angry mob of complainers demanding that people be fired is a pretty fucked up situation, and if it happens on a regular basis it will literally destroy E-sports. This only worked because it was in line with Razer's views, I doubt they'd want themselves associated with racial slurs in any manner. It's that simple. It worked because they can't afford to risk the PR problems of being seen as a company that doesn't punish those views. Quantic and Razer didn't give a shit about it previously. It worked because the angry mob forced them into a situation of having to choose to fire Destiny or risk a PR nightmare. I stand by my statement that it is fucked up when things like people's employment status is determined via angry mob. Your North Korean example is too extreme to even respond to. When the only argument you can broach is from oppressive governments threatening their citizens, there really isn't much to say. It's an analogy. If you understand what they are, then Google it and learn about it. The point I was making is "if something is wrong on a large scale, then it is also wrong on a smaller scale". You seem to be under the impression that I was saying that censoring Destiny is literally as bad as North Korea jailing people who don't worship the Dear Leader. That is not the case. But here, let me use the opposite extreme to show you why this doesn't work. My boss tells me I need to stop calling all the women in the office, "sweet cheeks", "sugar baby" and "honey tits" but I don't want to. He fires me. What an asshole for trying to "force me" to do something right? That is not the same situation at all. A more comparable situation would be if you were at a bar and started calling women those things. Then the women decided that you need to be punished for your inappropriate behavior, so they went to your boss and demanded that you be fired from your job, or else they'll hold a public protest outside of your workplace. If not, then there's clearly a line at which point "forcing" someone to do something or imposing consequences is acceptable. I absolutely agree with this. But I cannot see how the situation of "a person is trying to put on an entertaining show for his audience, and part of it is that he's speaking his mind and being completely uncensored in front of an audience who can choose to watch or not watch it" is something that calls for this kind of response. I'm sorry but if my analogy doesn't apply, how does your North Korean one apply? They're both an example of someone who has the power to make someone change their behavior or suffer consequences. My analogy correctly reflected the situation, which is described as this: a group of people are demanding that individuals conform to the group's standards, or else face a punishment. The individual is free to choose whether to conform. Yours did not accurately reflect the situation. For yours to be accurate, the situation would involve Destiny going to a meeting involving members of Quantic and Razer, and calling them racist terms. Destiny and his ladder opponents are not co-workers who share the same boss, nor is the SC2 ladder their workplace. And how is the North Korean government throwing someone in jail for not crying enough anything like the Destiny situation? It isn't either, you were using an extreme and inapplicable example, I specifically stated mine was there to show how ridiculous yours was.
I'm afraid you still don't understand how analogies work.
Yes, my example was very extreme. That was intentional! It seems to be unclear to some people whether it's ok to force others to conform to your ways or else face punishment. I intentionally used a very extreme example to show that it is not OK to do such a thing, and then used that to demonstrate that if it's not OK on a large scale, then it's not OK on a small scale either.
Here, let's do this one then. The government says you can't defecate on public property or you'll be penalized. That's basically the exact same thing as your North Korean example only it's a lot more understandable. However, your overarching statement still applies here which would make it an unacceptable demand as well. Extend this to just about any ridiculous example you want.
When creating a valid analogy, you can change the intensity of the situation, but you cannot change the nature of the situation itself.
Your new analogy is not comparable to Destiny's situation, because a turd on a public sidewalk negatively affects anyone who travels in that area. Destiny's language only affects anyone who specifically chooses to travel to his specific area of performance, which has warning signs around it and can be easily avoided and ignored by those who don't want to encounter it.
I will not respond further to this as it has gotten so far away from the actual topic of the thread, there is plenty of information about analogies on the internet if you care to find out more.
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I would just like to add - do any of you remember back in 06 when a student was called the "n" word by an honors english teacher? The school district responded by giving him 10 days of unpaid leave. I'm quite sure that his job is just as professional as any pro gamers is.
Just search "teacher calls student n word" on youtube.
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That was intentional! It seems to be unclear to some people whether it's ok to force others to conform to your ways or else face punishment
I really doubt you believe this. For example I'm guessing you think if I walk into your house to take a beer out of your fridge you'd have absolutely no problem compelling me to behave like the rest of society. I'm also guessing you have no problem doing the same to violent thugs of most sorts so lets try not to be disingenuous here.
I'm afraid you still don't understand how analogies work.
In a totalitarian dictatorship like the USSR, North Korea, or some other hell hole if there was a law against Destiny saying bad stuff on his stream he wouldn't be able to stream the way he wanted without being thrown in prison (or otherwise compelled).
In the actual situation we're discussing Destiny is entirely free to do whatever he wants and people are exercising their entirely free right to organize ostracism against him. His stream is still up, his team was free to defend him, and he had no metaphorical gun pointed at him if he didn't obey some dictat of a (non-existent) sovereign. This is, in fact, the entire basis on which society and civilization is based. That you choose to freely deny it is scary.
So your analogy does work- if you completely strip away all context. Its not like these people are trying to get a law against saying bad things on video game streams passed.
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On May 06 2012 03:40 Ultraex2 wrote:
I would just like to add - do any of you remember back in 06 when a student was called the "n" word by an honors english teacher? The school district responded by giving him 10 days of unpaid leave. I'm quite sure that his job is just as professional as any pro gamers is.
Just search "teacher calls student n word" on youtube.
Yep. I think the school district's actions were appropriate there. I don't think the teacher did anything offensive and he certainly isn't racist, and it's understandable that when that kind of language is used at you, you would expect that the person who used the language first finds it acceptable.
However, it was somewhat unprofessional and he could have handled it differently. I think a public school teacher requires a much higher level of professionalism than an online game streamer, and he didn't uphold those high standards. His punishment was just about right.
But I absolutely guarantee you that if the teacher had been a black man, the situation would never have become a big deal at all. Curious how someone's skin color determines the reaction to a situation.
One thing I'm glad about is that most people recognized that the teacher is not a racist and was not using hate speech, instead of flying off the handle and going the angry mob route of "WHITE PEOPLE CAN NEVER SAY THAT WORD, I DEMAND THAT YOU FIRE HIM".
The difference between offensive language and true racist hate speech is important, and people should be able to recognize the two as different things.
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I support Destiny.
Everyone else who doesn't can die horribly painful deaths along with all of their friends and family members.
User was banned for this post.
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Bro's I was thinking. What if..Destiny intentionally BM'd this guy? And since he got in trouble for it, he was kicked from Quantic therefore allowing him to focus 100% on LoL. I SOLVED THE MYSTERY!! Maybe I should have posted in the High Thread..
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On May 06 2012 03:40 Ultraex2 wrote:
I would just like to add - do any of you remember back in 06 when a student was called the "n" word by an honors english teacher? The school district responded by giving him 10 days of unpaid leave. I'm quite sure that his job is just as professional as any pro gamers is.
Just search "teacher calls student n word" on youtube.
This is a slightly different situation. There's no pro-gaming union, but there IS one for teachers, and it's extremely powerful. There was a teacher in New York who collected full salary and benefits for a decade, despite refusing to work. He wouldn't retire, and the city was legally prohibited from firing him. So he was stuck in a minor secretarial position, did maybe an hour or two of office-assistant work a month, and spent the rest of the time earning a brokerage license to manage his city-funded pension.
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Asshat. Quantic is better off without him. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets picked up by complexity soon.
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On May 06 2012 03:59 BaconofWar wrote:
Asshat. Quantic is better off without him. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets picked up by complexity soon.
You realize Complexity removed him for the same reason right? Destiny was part of the ROOT acquisition, shortly after the acquisition he was removed. Why would they pick him back up? That makes no sense at all.
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On May 06 2012 04:02 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:59 BaconofWar wrote:
Asshat. Quantic is better off without him. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets picked up by complexity soon. You realize Complexity removed him for the same reason right? Destiny was part of the ROOT acquisition, shortly after the acquisition he was removed. Why would they pick him back up? That makes no sense at all.
If they reassessed their position, of course it makes perfect sense. Having been on ROOT, Destiny has an pretty great rapport with most of the players on coL through his former teammates. If he and compLexity can get past their differences on the issues that led to the contract dispute during the acquisition, it makes perfect sense that they would take him back on.
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Complexity never really had him.. never got past the signing of the contract because of issues from both sides if i recall somewhat correctly. And from what iv read Destiny wants to be solo atleast for now. which is probly best for everyone until we all cool down.
And honestly despite Destiny saying the stupid racial remarks, Warden and the rest of the anti destiny squad havent shown themselves as a better option. this community aint dying or growing, its just going in circles. atleast in my opinion.
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On May 06 2012 03:52 zawk9 wrote:Show nested quote +That was intentional! It seems to be unclear to some people whether it's ok to force others to conform to your ways or else face punishment I really doubt you believe this. For example I'm guessing you think if I walk into your house to take a beer out of your fridge you'd have absolutely no problem compelling me to behave like the rest of society. I'm also guessing you have no problem doing the same to violent thugs of most sorts so lets try not to be disingenuous here.
That... is... a... different... situtation. That is ---not the same---. That is directly intruding on someone and causing damage to them.
I am beginning to wonder if people are deliberately choosing to misinterpret my words in order to continue an argument, or something.
In the actual situation we're discussing Destiny is entirely free to do whatever he wants and people are exercising their entirely free right to organize ostracism against him. His stream is still up, his team was free to defend him, and he had no metaphorical gun pointed at him if he didn't obey some dictat of a (non-existent) sovereign. This is, in fact, the entire basis on which society and civilization is based. That you choose to freely deny it is scary.
I deny none of that. I completely understand that that is exactly what has happened here.
What I am saying is- that situation is fucked up.
So your analogy does work- if you completely strip away all context. Its not like these people are trying to get a law against saying bad things on video game streams passed.
No, they're not trying to pass a law against it... instead, they're creating an unwritten law and enforcing it when and where they choose, with their self-created punishment.
It's just like the recent news story where the "Million Moms" group demanded that JCPenney stop using Ellen DeGeneres in their ads, because they don't like her and find her actions (such as existing as a gay woman) reprehensible. Even Bill O'Reilly was against that- you don't go demanding that someone get fired just because you don't approve of them.
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On May 06 2012 04:06 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 04:02 Mordiford wrote:On May 06 2012 03:59 BaconofWar wrote:
Asshat. Quantic is better off without him. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets picked up by complexity soon. You realize Complexity removed him for the same reason right? Destiny was part of the ROOT acquisition, shortly after the acquisition he was removed. Why would they pick him back up? That makes no sense at all. If they reassessed their position, of course it makes perfect sense. Having been on ROOT, Destiny has an pretty great rapport with most of the players on coL through his former teammates. If he and compLexity can get past their differences on the issues that led to the contract dispute during the acquisition, it makes perfect sense that they would take him back on.
The dispute was the stuff that he just got released for from Quantic. I don't really see how this makes sense. I highly doubt one of the oldest organizations in eSports is just going to reassess their position on something like racial slurs, particularly after releasing him less than a year ago.
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On May 06 2012 04:08 Chocobo wrote:
It's just like the recent news story where the "Million Moms" group demanded that JCPenney stop using Ellen DeGeneres in their ads, because they don't like her and find her actions (such as existing as a gay woman) reprehensible. Even Bill O'Reilly was against that- you don't go demanding that someone get fired just because you don't approve of them.
It's actually nothing at all like that situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Ellen wasn't caught acting racist because someone beat her in a game of starcraft.
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On May 06 2012 04:12 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 04:08 Chocobo wrote:
It's just like the recent news story where the "Million Moms" group demanded that JCPenney stop using Ellen DeGeneres in their ads, because they don't like her and find her actions (such as existing as a gay woman) reprehensible. Even Bill O'Reilly was against that- you don't go demanding that someone get fired just because you don't approve of them. It's actually nothing at all like that situation. Correct me if I'm wrong but Ellen wasn't caught calling someone a gook because they beat her in a game of starcraft.
I'm glad you quoted that, I would have missed out on that amazing comparison.
On that note: what would Ellen think of someone throwing around the term "faggot" as an insult and then arguing that it's not homophobic?
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On May 05 2012 23:26 Defacer wrote:
Uhhhhhhhh, I don't know any work environment where you can call a client, customer or co-worker an inbred autistic retarded fucking faggot.
Where do you work? At the 4chan restaurant?
I think he was referring to the fact that you commonly hear pros rage at someone, excluding the use of racial slurs. I mean, turn on half those EU Terrans like Kas, Merz, etc, and half the time when they lose, they'll tell their opponent they're fucking terrible, etc. Yet there is nothing wrong with this? You think this would be tolerated in a work place? Absolutely not. Why do people not go after these people?
The problem is you have many people with nothing better to do than try to stir up trouble for whatever short comings in their life. Find someone you don't like? Lets try to get them fired!
Never been a fan of Destiny, but I've gained respect for him standing his ground. Therefore, I've been keeping his stream on 24/7.
At the end of the day, this is just a game. Nothing more, nothing less.
On May 06 2012 04:02 Mordiford wrote:
You realize Complexity removed him for the same reason right? Destiny was part of the ROOT acquisition, shortly after the acquisition he was removed. Why would they pick him back up? That makes no sense at all.
Wow, Complexity never removed him. It was a mutual agreement, as they fully knew Destiny's attitude. Quantic knew of Destiny's attitude previous to signing him. Why they weren't prepared for something like this, more so after the Orb fiasco is insane.
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On May 06 2012 04:42 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 23:26 Defacer wrote:
Uhhhhhhhh, I don't know any work environment where you can call a client, customer or co-worker an inbred autistic retarded fucking faggot.
Where do you work? At the 4chan restaurant?
I think he was referring to the fact that you commonly hear pros rage at someone, excluding the use of racial slurs. I mean, turn on half those EU Terrans like Kas, Merz, etc, and half the time when they lose, they'll tell their opponent they're fucking terrible, etc. Yet there is nothing wrong with this? You think this would be tolerated in a work place? Absolutely not. Why do people not go after these people? The problem is you have many people with nothing better to do than try to stir up trouble for whatever short comings in their life. Find someone you don't like? Lets try to get them fired! Never been a fan of Destiny, but I've gained respect for him standing his ground. Therefore, I've been keeping his stream on 24/7. At the end of the day, this is just a game. Nothing more, nothing less.
As Destiny once said, one can be extremely racist without the use of racist slurs, and on the other side of it, one can have a perfectly legitimate message that still utilizes racist slurs.
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EPT
