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Sean Harris, a homophobic North Carolina preacher spoke in non-uncertain terms during his sermon about how to treat children exhibiting "gender-variant behavior". Among the things he suggests are hysically assaulting toddlers with "limp wrists," and punching children. Harris says that girls are ok to play sports, as long as they "attempt to look pretty." Harris maniacal sermon comes in the heels of North Carolina's Antigay Amendment One.
I have a few things that I want discussed about this. To be honest, I am one of those that are morally or philisophically vague about this isms - pro-gay, anti-gay, prolife, pro-abortion, etc. I don't really feel the need to stand of one side of the fence or the other. I feel that these are mere natural tensions that occur in a complex society and eventually will play out on what is really for the common good, as it has in most cases, such as with racism, semitism, etc (at least the vulgar part of it). Now on this story, the excessive nature of the preacher's methods is clear from the start, but I'd like to argue this on a purely moral standpoint. What if these antigay people feel so strongly about this issue that they feel the need to go to extreme measures to achieve their goal? Isn't it the same with most things, only that they are now the marginalized sector? Throughout history there are many cases of these, in the end what will count and be considered "humane" is who wins the moral battle.
The pastor
![[image loading]](http://www.advocate.com/sites/advocate.com/files/imagecache/stories/SEANHARRIS%20X400%20ADVOCATE.COM_.jpg)
Link to the audio file
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2012/05/video-amendment1-pastor-gives-parents-special-dispensation-to-use-violence-against-lgbt-kids-4marriagenc.html
Transcript of the sermon
"So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, “Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,” you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed.
Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male. And when your daughter starts acting to Butch you reign her in. And you say, “Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.”
You say, “Can I take charge like that as a parent?”
Yeah, you can. You are authorized. I just gave you a special dispensation this morning to do that."
Source:
http://www.fark.com/cgi/go.pl?i=7082155&s=1
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How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
I wasn't aware this pastor was a state.
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
Pretty much all the states in the bible belt.
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I could never understand why people be anti-gay. What are they trying to protect the public from? Being gay is a part of reality, let the people live however they want lol. It's not like they will ass rape you in the ATM all of a sudden...
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There is something wrong with how you were informed about this issue if you think these "isms" are simply natural tensions. These are people's lives and dignities we are talking about.
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is this guy for real
enjoying penis is not a choice and it's not a learned behavior, though acting effeminate is
I suggest he learn the difference by spending a day limpwristed and spending the next having sex with men to figure it out
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So some radical christians doesn't like gays?????
But seriously, I will just leave this quote from the G-man
"I like your Christ. I do not like Christians. They are so unlike your Christ" - Gandhi
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Seriously I will never get it. What the hell the gays did bad? They just leave their life, with their sexuality. I think too many people think you choose to be gay, do you choose to be heterosexual? Is the sexual orientation of people that important?
I really don't get it and it makes me truly sad.
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On May 02 2012 16:35 TanTzoR wrote:
Seriously I will never get it. What the hell the gays did bad? They just leave their life, with their sexuality. I think too many people think you choose to be gay, do you choose to be heterosexual? Is the sexual orientation of people that important?
I really don't get it and it makes me truly sad.
Even if people DID choose to be gay, they have every right to make that choice. More power to them. That's liberty and freedom to pursue happiness.
Some people's beliefs are so fucking ridiculous 
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On May 02 2012 16:37 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:35 TanTzoR wrote:
Seriously I will never get it. What the hell the gays did bad? They just leave their life, with their sexuality. I think too many people think you choose to be gay, do you choose to be heterosexual? Is the sexual orientation of people that important?
I really don't get it and it makes me truly sad.
Even if people DID choose to be gay, they have every right to make that choice. More power to them. That's liberty and freedom to pursue happiness. Some people's beliefs are so fucking ridiculous
Of course, but I think too many parents think be yelling at their son and telling him to "man up" he will become heterosexual. It's not how it works, the same way you can't make me become homosexual.
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I'm always hesitant to comment on these kinds of stories because my views are normally different from the majority of other posters. It's not even that the pastor is saying that being gay is necessarily bad (I'm sure he feels that way though), he's mostly saying that if you as a parent don't want your child to become gay then you should take some steps in order to prevent it. Similar to how you would discipline your child for undesirable behavior such as lying. Now, as to whether people are born gay, or they turn gay, or they choose to be gay, regardless of how that works, if the person is actually going to be gay then they will be. The pastor isn't advocating child abuse or anything like that, from his religious perspective he's voicing his opinion that parents are able to take measures to possibly prevent the undesired behavior. Now whether the parents even take action, and to what degree, that is different.
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On May 02 2012 16:41 KobyKat wrote:
I'm always hesitant to comment on these kinds of stories because my views are normally different from the majority of other posters. It's not even that the pastor is saying that being gay is necessarily bad (I'm sure he feels that way though), he's mostly saying that if you as a parent don't want your child to become gay then you should take some steps in order to prevent it. Similar to how you would discipline your child for undesirable behavior such as lying. Now, as to whether people are born gay, or they turn gay, or they choose to be gay, regardless of how that works, if the person is actually going to be gay then they will be. The pastor isn't advocating child abuse or anything like that, from his religious perspective he's voicing his opinion that parents are able to take measures to possibly prevent the undesired behavior. Now whether the parents even take action, and to what degree, that is different.
I agree with you. The article is quite sensationalized. He's just advocating traditional gender roles, and for parents to steer their kids to traditional gender roles. Sure it's old fashion, but it's not like he's advocating "physically assaulting toddlers" (talk about loaded language there) like the article wants us to believe.
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I don't understand why some people hate gay's so much it is not like they do anything bad to people.. If someone is gay so what? They were born that way and there is nothing wrong with that at all. I really fail to understand how someone can hate someone just for being gay.
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On May 02 2012 16:41 KobyKat wrote:
I'm always hesitant to comment on these kinds of stories because my views are normally different from the majority of other posters. It's not even that the pastor is saying that being gay is necessarily bad (I'm sure he feels that way though), he's mostly saying that if you as a parent don't want your child to become gay then you should take some steps in order to prevent it. Similar to how you would discipline your child for undesirable behavior such as lying. Now, as to whether people are born gay, or they turn gay, or they choose to be gay, regardless of how that works, if the person is actually going to be gay then they will be. The pastor isn't advocating child abuse or anything like that, from his religious perspective he's voicing his opinion that parents are able to take measures to possibly prevent the undesired behavior. Now whether the parents even take action, and to what degree, that is different.
I don't really follow you, "ow whether the parents even take action, and to what degree, that is different", what do you mean?
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Hardcore anti-gay speaker. Looks at critic. Christian. Big surprise.
Honestly, I never understood why a lot of Christians hate gay people. What did they ever do to them?
People are free to live their lives as they see fit (within reason, of course), and being gay sure as hell doesn't put anyone else at risk. Is it because it's "wrong"? Who said that? The Bible? Sorry, but that is about as subjective a source as can be.
You might think that it's wrong for your children to be gay, but that sure as hell doesn't justify violence, neither mental nor physical. And if you're thinking "He just means a little tap on the shoulder", then you're wrong. He says "A GOOD punch", which in my book, is pretty damn hard.
Let people become what they want to become, not what someone else wants them to be.
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my mom (christian) told me that she "loves" gays more than me (im straight, but for gay rights - im atheist) and thats why she votes against gay marriage etc, because she knows whats right for them and therefore loves them more
i said "wat"
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I'm kind of new here TanTzoR so I'm not sure how to quote you as a reply but what I meant is that the pastor supplied the parents with the information, he did not actually do anything. So now the parents will decide to either take action or not. Maybe they will do nothing, maybe they will take action to show their kid that those behaviors are not allowed in their home, but the option that I fear most is that a parent will go overboard with the punishment. It's clear the pastor is not advocating child abuse but a parent who is distressed about their kid possibly showing signs of being gay may overreact and take the punishment too far, much farther than the pastor would intend for them to take it. It will be unfortunate if a parent takes the punishment too far; unfortunate for the kid, for the parent, and also for the pastor because he may get some of the blame for suggesting any type of punishment for such behaviors.
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We Christians love gays, and so does Jesus. Though the bible is pretty clear that living your gayness is a sin, and no more a sin as any other sin like lying, stealing, cheating on your wife etc etc. God loves sinners, and he wants to help them.
This pastor is typical for many churches that put way to much emphasis on it, and hate it like anything else. The pastor need to realize that he is no better than anyone, and that he need to get some compassion and love with their dealing with people instead of all this hardness.
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On May 02 2012 16:49 KobyKat wrote:
I'm kind of new here TanTzoR so I'm not sure how to quote you as a reply but what I meant is that the pastor supplied the parents with the information, he did not actually do anything. So now the parents will decide to either take action or not. Maybe they will do nothing, maybe they will take action to show their kid that those behaviors are not allowed in their home, but the option that I fear most is that a parent will go overboard with the punishment. It's clear the pastor is not advocating child abuse but a parent who is distressed about their kid possibly showing signs of being gay may overreact and take the punishment too far, much farther than the pastor would intend for them to take it. It will be unfortunate if a parent takes the punishment too far; unfortunate for the kid, for the parent, and also for the pastor because he may get some of the blame for suggesting any type of punishment for such behaviors.
There is a "Quote" wordlink on the top right side of every post that you can click to quote the post.
It looks like this:
PM Profile Quote #
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On May 02 2012 16:49 KobyKat wrote:
It will be unfortunate if a parent takes the punishment too far; unfortunate for the kid, for the parent, and also for the pastor because he may get some of the blame for suggesting any type of punishment for such behaviors.
It's pretty outrageous to imply that encouraging parents to physically punish their children for acting 'gay' or 'butch' or anything like that is entirely acceptable as long as the punishment isn't taken 'too far'.
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On May 02 2012 16:48 Silidons wrote:
my mom (christian) told me that she "loves" gays more than me (im straight, but for gay rights - im atheist) and thats why she votes against gay marriage etc, because she knows whats right for them and therefore loves them more
i said "wat"
That's wrong on so many levels
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the pic alone speaks for his insanity. and his wife...lol...
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Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid.
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Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid
It's cute that you downplay it so hard, but the reality is is that these people are mentally insane, and contributing the insanity of our current and growing population, which chooses to obey their ignorant egoism of the refusal of modern day science in exchange for the peer pressure of modern and past day religion. What a fucking joke you people are.
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On May 02 2012 16:48 Silidons wrote:
my mom (christian) told me that she "loves" gays more than me (im straight, but for gay rights - im atheist) and thats why she votes against gay marriage etc, because she knows whats right for them and therefore loves them more
i said "wat"
Hahaha, that's golden. Don't want to say anything else otherwise I'll just end up insulting!
The pastor seems deranged.
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On May 02 2012 16:41 KobyKat wrote:
I'm always hesitant to comment on these kinds of stories because my views are normally different from the majority of other posters. It's not even that the pastor is saying that being gay is necessarily bad (I'm sure he feels that way though), he's mostly saying that if you as a parent don't want your child to become gay then you should take some steps in order to prevent it. Similar to how you would discipline your child for undesirable behavior such as lying. Now, as to whether people are born gay, or they turn gay, or they choose to be gay, regardless of how that works, if the person is actually going to be gay then they will be. The pastor isn't advocating child abuse or anything like that, from his religious perspective he's voicing his opinion that parents are able to take measures to possibly prevent the undesired behavior. Now whether the parents even take action, and to what degree, that is different.
You're assuming here that one can actually "cure" homosexuality (cure between quotes since there's no actual illness). There is no evidence whatsoever that someone can just decide to become straight and feel the same attraction for the opposite sex that he/she used to feel for his/her own sex.
Why not just live and let live?
On a slightly less serious note: If I were to start a religion, I would preach that nutjobs like this pastor can be physically punished until they stop abusing the bible for their hate-speech.
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On May 02 2012 16:41 KobyKat wrote:
I'm always hesitant to comment on these kinds of stories because my views are normally different from the majority of other posters. It's not even that the pastor is saying that being gay is necessarily bad (I'm sure he feels that way though), he's mostly saying that if you as a parent don't want your child to become gay then you should take some steps in order to prevent it. Similar to how you would discipline your child for undesirable behavior such as lying. Now, as to whether people are born gay, or they turn gay, or they choose to be gay, regardless of how that works, if the person is actually going to be gay then they will be. The pastor isn't advocating child abuse or anything like that, from his religious perspective he's voicing his opinion that parents are able to take measures to possibly prevent the undesired behavior. Now whether the parents even take action, and to what degree, that is different.
He's advocating something that doesn't work and is harmful (physically and psychologically) to vulnerable children. Regardless of what justification you try to conjure up, it's not okay. Lying, seriously? "Holy shit, got smacked for lying. Better not lie anymore." vs. "Holy shit, got smacked for being myself. Better not be myself anymore." Yeah, that's similar.
There. Are. No. Steps. To. Prevent. Your. Child. From. Being. Gay.
Would you become homosexual if your parents smacked you around for being straight? No, you wouldn't. Maybe you'd repress your feelings and live your whole life in miserable denial...
This is almost as bad as the radio host who suggested "corrective" rape for a young lesbian.
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On May 02 2012 17:05 ScienceNotBusiness wrote:Show nested quote +
Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid
It's cute that you downplay it so hard, but the reality is is that these people are mentally insane, and contributing the insanity of our current and growing population, which chooses to obey their ignorant egoism of the refusal of modern day science in exchange for the peer pressure of modern and past day religion. What a fucking joke you people are.
Who the fuck are you calling you people?
I said right in my goddamn post I was agnostic and anti-christian. I ridicule retards like the pastor in the OP on a daily basis for the stupid things they do.
Read and understand before you start raging at somebody that actually agrees with you.
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A fool who either actually believes in what he's preaching or is just an attention whore, kind of like the other pastor who threatened to burn a Koran that sparked international riots.
Best thing we can do is ignore him and/or call child services if he has any children.
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Oh look, another nutjob that made the news.
Just remember he is part of a vocal, crazy minority.
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On May 02 2012 16:49 KobyKat wrote:
I'm kind of new here TanTzoR so I'm not sure how to quote you as a reply but what I meant is that the pastor supplied the parents with the information, he did not actually do anything. So now the parents will decide to either take action or not. Maybe they will do nothing, maybe they will take action to show their kid that those behaviors are not allowed in their home, but the option that I fear most is that a parent will go overboard with the punishment. It's clear the pastor is not advocating child abuse but a parent who is distressed about their kid possibly showing signs of being gay may overreact and take the punishment too far, much farther than the pastor would intend for them to take it. It will be unfortunate if a parent takes the punishment too far; unfortunate for the kid, for the parent, and also for the pastor because he may get some of the blame for suggesting any type of punishment for such behaviors.
I'm sorry but I suggest you go look up what advocate means.
In fact, the bigger issue is that you don't seem to think punching children who aren't hetro-normtaive isn't child abuse.
If a child stole something from a shop, and the parent decided to punish the child using physical force for performing an act that is perceived as bad societal wide, then we could have a debate if that was child abuse or not (and we have, in the UK for example, it would really depend on the force, anything that leaves a mark was considered too much)
The pastor says "you should crack the wrists of your effeminate child, punch him, make him a man" That is advocating child abuse.
lets put it another way, I've wore glasses since a young age (a choice over contact lenses), should my parents be allowed to beat me for not wearing contact lenses instead? of course not.
Regardless if you think being gay is a choice or not, this behaviour is only okay if you believe that being gay is a capital crime.
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I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him.
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On May 02 2012 17:05 ScienceNotBusiness wrote:Show nested quote +
Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid
It's cute that you downplay it so hard, but the reality is is that these people are mentally insane, and contributing the insanity of our current and growing population, which chooses to obey their ignorant egoism of the refusal of modern day science in exchange for the peer pressure of modern and past day religion. What a fucking joke you people are.
Before you start ranting about how insane people are, you might want to check what people are saying. He's agnostic and pretty Anti-Christian, and by implication calling him out as a fucking joke calls into question your own bias towards the topic.
Your faith in modern day science is admirable, and I wish you the very best of luck with that. I wonder how you will react to the next scientific paradigm shift? Induction is not about being true, its about having the best possible explanation for the facts at hand.
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On May 02 2012 17:22 Osmoses wrote:
Oh look, another nutjob that made the news.
Just remember he is part of a vocal, crazy minority.
in america? gay marriage is not legal in a majority of states bro...
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On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him.
Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so...
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On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him.
I don't understand people like you. Are you being a mock of yourself? Are you being self-satirizing? You don't hate gay people, you just think they'll go to hell because they're gay, and you also think their very nature is a sin. This is hatred, nothing less. And don't try playing the "don't judge religion by its extremists" card, it doesn't work. I judge the religion by its texts and the people God "sent to the Earth to discern those texts" such as the pope.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:36 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:22 Osmoses wrote:
Oh look, another nutjob that made the news.
Just remember he is part of a vocal, crazy minority. in america? gay marriage is not legal in a majority of states bro...
There's a big gulf between legalising gay marriage and believing you should smack homosexuality out of kids. Just saying....
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On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories.
I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child.
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On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so...
I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate?
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On May 02 2012 16:41 KobyKat wrote:
The pastor isn't advocating child abuse or anything like that,
So what would you call him advising a parent to punch a 4 year old?
My son likes to wear dresses (he's 6 now, has done it since 3 or 4). So far it hasn't made his penis fall off, and I can tell you now, if he's gay, it ain't because dresses 'made' him gay. If that's who he is, then cool. That's who he is.
His father hates it and tries to stop it. He may be successful in stopping the dress-wearing (at least when the kids are with him), but all that's going to achieve is that if our boy grows up and discovers he's gay, he's going to be scared and ashamed at the thought of letting his dad know. If his dad tried to 'beat it out of him' (which I know he wouldn't), that would only serve to fuck up their relationship completely.
Well done, crazy pastor dude.
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The sermons tell us that jesus loves all of us including men so jesus was gay right?  i kid.
All joking aside though the anti-gay christian movement does have basis in that the bible is anti-gay in a really straight forward way it does literally say its wrong to lie with another man like you would with a woman or something of that nature, i can't really recall why it was supposedly put in the bible historically but iirc it was essentially to push back on alot of the more open polytheistic societies like the greeks / romans.
Really though when it all boils down to it for this issue the anti-gay christians (like this pastor) who advocate taking away freedoms and/or forcing children to "be straight" even when its obviously something you are born with (it has a genetic basis in that its the same gene that makes people extra fertile for procreation) are completely ridiculous in wanting to take away the rights of other individuals to keep in the "land of the free" so much derp in american christians makes my country look bad. Can we skip war with iran/n.korea in the future and just nuke the bible belt?  j/k
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On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate?
He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it.
It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse.
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On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse.
Thanks Hypercube 
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On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child.
I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say.
I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically.
He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it.
It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse.
Having sin in your life does not mean you are doomed to eternal torture. I think its a common misconception that Christians believe gay people are going to hell because they are gay and living a gay lifestyle. If someone is feeling threatened for the reasons you stated, then I would suggest they do some self-study on what the Bible says about how you end up in Heaven or Hell.
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On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:
I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say.
I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically.
Even if said with words and not violence, the message is still that 'who you are is not OK'. That's pretty damn psychologically hurtful from where i'm standing.
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On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically.
He clearly tells them to punch their kids for behaving gay. There is no ambiguity there. What point are you trying to make here?
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On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically.
I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse?
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i am a christian and i find this both ridiculous and sad
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well he's in the bible belt so that's a given. even worse how he set back women with the comment "as long as they attempt to look pretty"
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On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically.
Perhaps you should consider the likely possibility that you didn't hear any preacher advocating anything harmful in church because that is what you wanted to hear. The God of the bible is not a very nice God and the bible never claims that he is.
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On May 02 2012 17:54 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. He clearly tells them to punch their kids for behaving gay. There is no ambiguity there. What point are you trying to make here?
I think you are missing the point, its on the level of spanking a kid for doing something wrong, which again is something that not all people agree on nowadays (corporal punishment). Personally if you need to know my opinion corporal punishment is okay to an extent that you need negative reinforcement for something that is merits the case (your child using physical violence against someone else, stealing when he/she knows its wrong ect..) I would say "punching" him in the literal sense would be wrong i.e laying him flat, but the punch the pastor meant was like a punch on the shoulder.. hardly actual physical abuse. Not that i am advocating negatively reinforcing being gay since its something you are born with and is not something that you can teach people out of.
edit: just to get rid of the ambiguity what i mean by acceptable corporal punishment would be a spanking or forcing them to eat a bar of soap ect..
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I firmly believe that children should not be assaulted for any reason. It is completely unacceptable to think that violence of any type against any people old or young is acceptable. In my mind I do not think the debate should be about the issue that this man is talking about but that he is asserting (I understand that this does mean doing) that it is ok to be physically or emotionally violent to children to change their behavior, it should not be tolerated by anyone in the community whether they are christian or not. It would plainly be unacceptable for me to assault this man for his beliefs and I would expect that it would apply to everyone.
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On May 02 2012 18:01 sc14s wrote:
Personally if you need to know my opinion corporal punishment is okay to an extent that you need negative reinforcement for something that is merits the case (your child using physical violence against someone else, stealing when he/she knows its wrong ect..)
![[image loading]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/564782_367833389920651_324385204265470_968372_1225541123_n.jpg)
That's all I have to say about that...
... actually I lied, i have one more thing to say on that subject
your child using physical violence against someone else
"Hitting is wrong! You shouldn't hit people! I'm going to show you how wrong it is to hit someone by... by hitting you! Yeah!"
Love the logic there.
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On May 02 2012 18:04 Asrathiel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:01 sc14s wrote:
Personally if you need to know my opinion corporal punishment is okay to an extent that you need negative reinforcement for something that is merits the case (your child using physical violence against someone else, stealing when he/she knows its wrong ect..) That's all I have to say about that ^_^
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture.
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On May 02 2012 16:33 Aelfric wrote:
I could never understand why people be anti-gay. What are they trying to protect the public from? Being gay is a part of reality, let the people live however they want lol. It's not like they will ass rape you in the ATM all of a sudden...
+ Show Spoiler +
It would be pretty funny if it did happen though.
I really wish people could just mind their own businesses.
Why do these people even bother with other people? Are they worried they're going to hell, if they don't "set other people straight" or what?
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On May 02 2012 18:01 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:54 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. He clearly tells them to punch their kids for behaving gay. There is no ambiguity there. What point are you trying to make here? I think you are missing the point, its on the level of spanking a kid for doing something wrong, which again is something that not all people agree on nowadays (corporal punishment). Personally if you need to know my opinion corporal punishment is okay to an extent that you need negative reinforcement for something that is merits the case (your child using physical violence against someone else, stealing when he/she knows its wrong ect..) I would say "punching" him in the literal sense would be wrong i.e laying him flat, but the punch the pastor meant was like a punch on the shoulder.. hardly actual physical abuse. Not that i am advocating negatively reinforcing being gay since its something you are born with and is not something that you can teach people out of.
You seem to be very specific about what the pastor meant. That is a bit odd.
Personally, I don't think corporal punishment is ever ok, it is lazy, barbaric, unnecessary and mostly counter-productive. So that does color my opinion on this, I think using violence to change a person's fundamental nature is outright evil.
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On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse?
I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse.
If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^
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On May 02 2012 18:07 sc14s wrote:
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture.
My edit nothwithstanding, I'm pretty sure the image clearly explains that while adults hitting adults is against the law, adults hitting children is seen as 'discipline', and this makes no logical sense.
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On May 02 2012 18:01 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:54 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. He clearly tells them to punch their kids for behaving gay. There is no ambiguity there. What point are you trying to make here? I think you are missing the point, its on the level of spanking a kid for doing something wrong, which again is something that not all people agree on nowadays (corporal punishment). Personally if you need to know my opinion corporal punishment is okay to an extent that you need negative reinforcement for something that is merits the case (your child using physical violence against someone else, stealing when he/she knows its wrong ect..) I would say "punching" him in the literal sense would be wrong i.e laying him flat, but the punch the pastor meant was like a punch on the shoulder.. hardly actual physical abuse. Not that i am advocating negatively reinforcing being gay since its something you are born with and is not something that you can teach people out of. edit: just to get rid of the ambiguity what i mean by acceptable corporal punishment would be a spanking or forcing them to eat a bar of soap ect..
I hate to be that guy who argues semantics... who am I kidding? I love to be that guy!
Anyways:
would say "punching" him in the literal sense would be wrong i.e laying him flat, but the punch the pastor meant was like a punch on the shoulder.. hardly actual physical abuse.
Think about what you're trying to accomplish with that punch though, why would you punch someone, let alone a kid, to begin with? As you stated you're trying to introduce negative reinforcement, and I doubt a playful punch on the shoulder would make any kid reevaluate anything. You'd have to punch them hard enough or enough times to get their attention, to cause pain (even slightly). It's being dumbed down because NOBODY wants to be the "monster" who recommends child abuse, but at the end of the day you're advocating causing pain to a child via punching them to turn them away from the homosexual lifestyle.
Seems to me like fighting a war on drugs by having sex with the wives of all the drug dealers.
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On May 02 2012 18:09 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:01 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 17:54 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. He clearly tells them to punch their kids for behaving gay. There is no ambiguity there. What point are you trying to make here? I think you are missing the point, its on the level of spanking a kid for doing something wrong, which again is something that not all people agree on nowadays (corporal punishment). Personally if you need to know my opinion corporal punishment is okay to an extent that you need negative reinforcement for something that is merits the case (your child using physical violence against someone else, stealing when he/she knows its wrong ect..) I would say "punching" him in the literal sense would be wrong i.e laying him flat, but the punch the pastor meant was like a punch on the shoulder.. hardly actual physical abuse. Not that i am advocating negatively reinforcing being gay since its something you are born with and is not something that you can teach people out of. You seem to be very specific about what the pastor meant. That is a bit odd. Personally, I don't think corporal punishment is ever ok, it is lazy, barbaric, unnecessary and mostly counter-productive. So that does color my opinion on this, I think using violence to change a person's fundamental nature is outright evil.
How is that a bit odd? it seems to me like that's what he meant when i listened to it.
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On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse.
Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them.
He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin.
Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet.
Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business.
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Why did this cunt get to become a preacher? I mean if I was one I'd sure as hell want this nutcase out off my team cause he'd be making me look bad.
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Just know that because a Pastor says these things it is not what Jesus taught. If someone could point me to a place in the New Testament where Jesus advocated physically harming another person for their sins please let me know. Jesus in fact saved a woman who was going to be stoned to death for being caught in the act of adultery. If anything Jesus would be telling this Pastor NOT to hard the children but instead pray for them.
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On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business.
Where's the part where he said a straight lifestyle will be as sinful as a gay one?
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On May 02 2012 18:10 Asrathiel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:07 sc14s wrote:
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture. My edit nothwithstanding, I'm pretty sure the image clearly explains that while adults hitting adults is against the law, adults hitting children is seen as 'discipline', and this makes no logical sense.
Actually it does in the fact that they understand after getting spanked what they did was wrong, It conveys in the strongest of sense (pain) that something is wrong so you should not be doing it. How do you learn things are right and wrong as a child? trial and error- the right things get you positive results (generally) and wrong things get you negative results (i.e you are in the kitchen and touch your finger on the hot stove *OW* it burns gee mayby i shouldn't be touching the stove in the firstplace when it is on)
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On May 02 2012 17:58 ChriS-X wrote:
i am a christian and i find this both ridiculous and sad
Pretty much in the same boat as you...the ultra-radical and incredibly loud ones get the attention though. Unfortunately it reflects poorly on everyone else who is Christian. People who have unfathomably ignorant and intolerant views like this pastor are embarrassing to me personally as a Christian. It's not even about hating the sin but loving the sinner in this case. Even if you believe that homosexuality is a sin, it's no more a sin than running that stop sign in your neighborhood because no one was up at 3am to see you do it. That's possibly one of the most trivial things you could do but nevertheless you're doing something that you shouldn't. These crazy people making homosexuality out to be something worth mentioning more than greed or lust is stupid...it ludicrous to prioritize anything in the realm of sin anyway.
Him and others like him make me mad because they tarnish the Church's image more than anyone else. I apologize for this kind of stuff...this isn't what Christianity is based off of but it seems to be some zealous cause to pick up if you're an extremist.
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On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child.
It's always that isn't it? Just like the hassle caused for the Catholic church is the worst consequence of priests raping children by the thousands per the current Pope. Such a hardship being the privileged majority.
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6 months he's found in a seedy motel with his pool boy. Calling it now.
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On May 02 2012 18:15 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Where's the part where he said a straight lifestyle will be as sinful as a gay one?
Sin isn't weighted in the eyes of God. Its not -5 points for murder, -3 points for stealing, -2 points for being gay, +20 points for not being gay. Sin is Sin and we all have it, including myself.
My heterosexual lifestyle does not make me less sinful than someone living a gay lifestyle.
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On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^
I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless.
As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.)
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On May 02 2012 18:22 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:15 Roe wrote:On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Where's the part where he said a straight lifestyle will be as sinful as a gay one? Sin isn't weighted in the eyes of God. Its not -5 points for murder, -3 points for stealing, -2 points for being gay, +20 points for not being gay. Sin is Sin and we all have it, including myself.
I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity.
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On May 02 2012 17:05 ScienceNotBusiness wrote:Show nested quote +
Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid
It's cute that you downplay it so hard, but the reality is is that these people are mentally insane, and contributing the insanity of our current and growing population, which chooses to obey their ignorant egoism of the refusal of modern day science in exchange for the peer pressure of modern and past day religion. What a fucking joke you people are.
I agree with you, but 95% of the USA is religious. The world-wide religion statistic is similar.
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On May 02 2012 18:22 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:15 Roe wrote:On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Where's the part where he said a straight lifestyle will be as sinful as a gay one? Sin isn't weighted in the eyes of God. Its not -5 points for murder, -3 points for stealing, -2 points for being gay, +20 points for not being gay. Sin is Sin and we all have it, including myself. My heterosexual lifestyle does not make me less sinful than someone living a gay lifestyle.
You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well?
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Man that photo just SCREAMS Moral Orel.
A seemingly happy christian family with a lot of fucked up things behind closed doors.//
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I would recommend physical punishment to treat this pastor's stupidity.
Edit ;
On May 02 2012 18:27 guN-viCe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:05 ScienceNotBusiness wrote:
Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid
It's cute that you downplay it so hard, but the reality is is that these people are mentally insane, and contributing the insanity of our current and growing population, which chooses to obey their ignorant egoism of the refusal of modern day science in exchange for the peer pressure of modern and past day religion. What a fucking joke you people are. I agree with you, but 95% of the USA is religious. The world-wide religion statistic is similar.
Where did you get those statistics, because after some research these numbers are wrong.
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
Depends. I would argue that every state in America has people who are anti-gay and homophobic. Especially in more rural areas. Obviously the number of people who feel this way is higher in certain areas of the US, especially the southeastern US and the midwest.
With that said, I lived in North Carolina for the vast majority of my life. I went to college there. In the cities homophobia isn't as prevalent as you'd think. Most people who are my age are generally more accepting of homosexuality and in America I think it's just a matter of waiting until the older generation dies out before homosexuality will be more accepted.
Also, there are ministers in America and likely every country who make sermons like this on a weekly basis. It's nothing new. Some people are just that close minded and will use religion to argue that their anti-gay sentiments aren't just them being assholes. I don't think most Christians realize how much pain they're causing with this ridiculous push against homosexuality. You could just as easily interpret the Bible to believe that drinking alcohol is a sin. Or that marrying someone who isn't the same race as you is a sin. And many Conservative Christians do interpret the Bible to believe that both things are sins. I don't know why homosexuality is singled out and opposed by such a large number of Christians when other, more dated "sins," are largely ignored by huge pockets of Christians.
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On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.)
Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot.
I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity.
I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus.
You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well?
I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
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On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business.
Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway.
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse.
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On May 02 2012 16:54 ThePhan2m wrote:
We Christians love gays, and so does Jesus. Though the bible is pretty clear that living your gayness is a sin, and no more a sin as any other sin like lying, stealing, cheating on your wife etc etc. God loves sinners, and he wants to help them.
This pastor is typical for many churches that put way to much emphasis on it, and hate it like anything else. The pastor need to realize that he is no better than anyone, and that he need to get some compassion and love with their dealing with people instead of all this hardness.
See, there's a problem, you can't just group up being gay in the same category as lying/stealing/cheating and act as if it's not a big deal because being gay IS NOT A CHOICE. It's EXACTLY the same as calling, I don't know, midgets sinners because their genetic code got "messed up". EXACTLY the same. The difference is that sex related issues are always super relevant and concerning to human beings because it's one of the most basic instincts and our brain has the tendency to go "WHA?" when it sees something against the norm.
You can't just waltz through it with that good old "Bible says some things, but the important thing is that Jesus loves you, blah blah blah". I respect your position, it just amazes me to what ends people will lie to themselves just to make everything fit instead of applying common sense.
Other than this off-topic, this is obviously ridiculous. People can believe all they want as long as they can function in a society, but when someone advocates physical violence there's no room for excuses.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot. Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity. I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus. Show nested quote +You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
Just saying you are not the ambassador of Christianity any more than this pastor is. Also homosexuality is not morally wrong or sinful in any way. Ain't no God.
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On May 02 2012 18:16 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:10 Asrathiel wrote:On May 02 2012 18:07 sc14s wrote:
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture. My edit nothwithstanding, I'm pretty sure the image clearly explains that while adults hitting adults is against the law, adults hitting children is seen as 'discipline', and this makes no logical sense. Actually it does in the fact that they understand after getting spanked what they did was wrong, It conveys in the strongest of sense (pain) that something is wrong so you should not be doing it. How do you learn things are right and wrong as a child? trial and error- the right things get you positive results (generally) and wrong things get you negative results (i.e you are in the kitchen and touch your finger on the hot stove *OW* it burns gee mayby i shouldn't be touching the stove in the firstplace when it is on)
They theories you are applying here are very outdated behaviorism. Upbringing of a child is more complex than giving negative and positive reinforcements at the right times. And there is great differences from some negative/positive reinforcements and others.
Reinforcing through violence is reinforcing through fear. Whereas it may suceed in abolishing the behavior, it doesn't do so in a very "effective manner" (more to the point: it doesn't make your child a decent human being). The problem with fear induced reinforcements is that they mostly work as long as the threat is present. For instance as long as the child live under your roof. Absent of the threat, the child have no motivation to behave as you like it to. Now, you may succeed in inducing a fear in the child that it can't just move away from, but in doing so you are hurting the child emotionally and may even then not succeed in your endeavor.
What you want to do is have your children internalize a set of good moral rules that they apply to their own behavior absent of threat. You do that by showing the way in your own actions and loving your child. Loved children don't usually go very wrong and when they do, most will regret it and try to change their ways.
I won't spend to much time on the subject it is easy enough to read up on. As a disclaimer I will add that this view doesn't mean that a child go awry just because you hit it a few times during its upbringing. All parents make mistakes and you don't ruin the child doing so. Just don't make bad upbringing tecniques your go to choices or you will give yourself a harder time than was necessary. I will also add that a child that got "put straight" by violence may later internalize good morale through different means, so even if you taught your children not to fight by spanking them, it doesn't mean they will get violent as free adults.
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This is an extremist, like Islamic terrorists, so on. However, I still see this thread being an opportunity for cliched anti-Christian, anti-religion rants.
Do not generalize.
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On May 02 2012 18:40 MidKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:54 ThePhan2m wrote:
We Christians love gays, and so does Jesus. Though the bible is pretty clear that living your gayness is a sin, and no more a sin as any other sin like lying, stealing, cheating on your wife etc etc. God loves sinners, and he wants to help them.
This pastor is typical for many churches that put way to much emphasis on it, and hate it like anything else. The pastor need to realize that he is no better than anyone, and that he need to get some compassion and love with their dealing with people instead of all this hardness. You can't just waltz through it with that good old "Bible says some things, but the important thing is that Jesus loves you, blah blah blah". I respect your position, it just amazes me to what ends people will lie to themselves just to make everything fit instead of applying common sense.
This may not be popular but you don't have to respect someone's position if it's harmful to others. I don't respect a racist person's position as to why he dislikes a particular race. Why on Earth should I be expected to respect someone's position when it's a position that something completely natural that they cannot change is wrong? You can still respect their religion, their Bible, and their God. But you don't have to respect their position that homosexuality is a sin. And in reality, you shouldn't.
One can't change their sexuality in the same way a person can't change their race or eye color or blood type. It's ridiculous that we are expected to tolerate and respect a position that only causes severe pain simply because it's incorporated into someone's religious views. And not even all Christians think that homosexuality is a sin.
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On May 02 2012 18:42 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot. I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity. I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus. You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. Just saying you are not the ambassador of Christianity any more than this pastor is. Also homosexuality is not morally wrong or sinful in any way. Ain't no God.
Right, I'm certainly not "THE" ambassador of Christianity, nor would I ever claim to be.
There are a lot of people that visit TeamLiquid who may have never sat in a Christian church, read the Bible, etc. I think its fair for me to try and give a voice to another part of the Christian community that otherwise might not have been heard.
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
It took one post for the American bashing to begin....
Honestly, Palestinians and Israelites have been KILLING each other in the name of the bible for years, yet one pastor makes an anti gay remark and the rest of the world flips shit about America? What is truly sickening is how the rest of the world blindly hates America while they refuse to open their eyes to the obsurdities around them in other countries.
At least the mods on this site should know better, you guys are just as bad for enabling it.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot.
It's hard to know for sure what he actually meant. My view is if you're going to joke about hurting children you'd better make _very sure_ that everyone understands it's a joke. I guess I can't prove that he literally meant punching kids. Maybe he didn't either. But it's still very, very wrong to joke about it in this context.
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On May 02 2012 16:44 Zvenn3n wrote:
Hardcore anti-gay speaker. Looks at critic. Christian. Big surprise.
Honestly, I never understood why a lot of Christians hate gay people. What did they ever do to them?
People are free to live their lives as they see fit (within reason, of course), and being gay sure as hell doesn't put anyone else at risk. Is it because it's "wrong"? Who said that? The Bible? Sorry, but that is about as subjective a source as can be.
You might think that it's wrong for your children to be gay, but that sure as hell doesn't justify violence, neither mental nor physical. And if you're thinking "He just means a little tap on the shoulder", then you're wrong. He says "A GOOD punch", which in my book, is pretty damn hard.
Let people become what they want to become, not what someone else wants them to be.
He's the pastor of a radical and independent protestant denomination. He's hardly representative of Christianity in general, and is similarly hardly exemplary.
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Bread and wine are supernaturally transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ.
I follow my own path.
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Hardcore extremist american Christian makes a statement. Nothing to do here. This isn't an argument that can be won, because religion is involved. Religious people will argue with eachother as to what the right interpretation is of the bible considering gay people. Everyone else is going to argue with the religious people that there is actually nothing wrong with being gay for many reasons and the religious people will counter with. But it says so in the bible.
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On May 02 2012 18:50 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:42 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot. I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity. I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus. You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. Just saying you are not the ambassador of Christianity any more than this pastor is. Also homosexuality is not morally wrong or sinful in any way. Ain't no God. Right, I'm certainly not "THE" ambassador of Christianity, nor would I ever claim to be. There are a lot of people that visit TeamLiquid who may have never sat in a Christian church, read the Bible, etc. I think its fair for me to try and give a voice to another part of the Christian community that otherwise might not have been heard.
Yes, I agree that this is perfectly reasonable. Its just that you expressed your personal dogma about sin as though it was the universally accepted position of christians. In reality it is probably not even a belief held by a majority. While I realize that this was probably not your intention, and it is slightly petty on my part to point it out, I do feel like it is important to be precise.
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On May 02 2012 18:45 theBALLS wrote:
This is an extremist, like Islamic terrorists, so on. However, I still see this thread being an opportunity for cliched anti-Christian, anti-religion rants.
Do not generalize.
I don't think many of us are generalizing. We're just pointing out that even the more mainstream Christian position is morally unacceptable from our point of view.
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Homophobic christian who advocates beating children? Well the only thing I think people would disagree upon is the christian part, and any talk of religion usually leads flaming and shit, pretty pointless thread, unless u wna bash religion
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I honestly don't even care about that he was talking about hitting children. The fact that he still thinks that sexuality is a choice is fucking sickening. And how is someone elses sexuality even going to affect you negatively in any way? Except for the sex itself, which you should have to witness whether the person in question is gay or straight, gay people are no different than your average straight person. Just let them do whatever they feel is right, and you focus on your own damn life.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway.
I pretty much agree and certainly hope he would unconditionally love the child. But I do think a parent can convey the message that they disprove of something without saying it makes the child unloved. I certainly am glad I am not that parent in that awkward situation, but Ithink it can be done. In my eyes it is not completely unlike believing parents who are hurt that teir children are atheist for example (please note I don't say the two situations are the same). Of course, these are not talks that should be had before the youth reached a certain maturity. Again, I would want for both parent and child that this wasn't necessary. I don't like it when christians openly dislike homosexuality. But it is not my place to get between that adult and his son.
On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse.
I don't get your metaphors at all. I take it you add the "die of starvation" part to emphasize the emotionally devastating effect of the message, but if there is anything other to it, it is very unclear to me. I think I disagree with this last paragraph though.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin.
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Just like every other religion (Islam, Eastern Mysticism, etc..) there are extremists that DO NOT represent the WHOLE.
I identify myself of the Christian faith but one of the things that I recognize that God gave humanity was freedom of choice(literally from the start).
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE should have the right to live how they choose as long as it does not PHYSICALLY interfere with the rights of others.
Although I find it shameful, this "pastor" and I use that term loosely should be able to spread his fear mongering any way he chooses. As long as he doesn't actually interfere with another's rights.
If a parent chooses to abuse their child because of this man's beliefs then that is ON THEM.
Words have power, but only to those that GIVE them that power.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
There's nothing wrong about a man being with a man or a woman being with a woman. Your book doesn't have any convincing argument in it to prove me wrong.
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On May 02 2012 19:05 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. There's nothing wrong about a man being with a man or a woman being with a woman. Your book doesn't have any convincing argument in it to prove me wrong.
I wouldn't try to convince you, or anyone on TL, that I'm right and "you're" wrong. I'm just trying to articulate my beliefs, as a Christian, as they pertain to this discussion.
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On May 02 2012 18:43 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:16 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 18:10 Asrathiel wrote:On May 02 2012 18:07 sc14s wrote:
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture. My edit nothwithstanding, I'm pretty sure the image clearly explains that while adults hitting adults is against the law, adults hitting children is seen as 'discipline', and this makes no logical sense. Actually it does in the fact that they understand after getting spanked what they did was wrong, It conveys in the strongest of sense (pain) that something is wrong so you should not be doing it. How do you learn things are right and wrong as a child? trial and error- the right things get you positive results (generally) and wrong things get you negative results (i.e you are in the kitchen and touch your finger on the hot stove *OW* it burns gee mayby i shouldn't be touching the stove in the firstplace when it is on) They theories you are applying here are very outdated behaviorism. Upbringing of a child is more complex than giving negative and positive reinforcements at the right times. And there is great differences from some negative/positive reinforcements and others. Reinforcing through violence is reinforcing through fear. Whereas it may suceed in abolishing the behavior, it doesn't do so in a very "effective manner" (more to the point: it doesn't make your child a decent human being). The problem with fear induced reinforcements is that they mostly work as long as the threat is present. For instance as long as the child live under your roof. Absent of the threat, the child have no motivation to behave as you like it to. Now, you may succeed in inducing a fear in the child that it can't just move away from, but in doing so you are hurting the child emotionally and may even then not succeed in your endeavor. What you want to do is have your children internalize a set of good moral rules that they apply to their own behavior absent of threat. You do that by showing the way in your own actions and loving your child. Loved children don't usually go very wrong and when they do, most will regret it and try to change their ways. I won't spend to much time on the subject it is easy enough to read up on. As a disclaimer I will add that this view doesn't mean that a child go awry just because you hit it a few times during its upbringing. All parents make mistakes and you don't ruin the child doing so. Just don't make bad upbringing tecniques your go to choices or you will give yourself a harder time than was necessary. I will also add that a child that got "put straight" by violence may later internalize good morale through different means, so even if you taught your children not to fight by spanking them, it doesn't mean they will get violent as free adults.
Well of course its more advanced than just good or bad behaviors and really I only mean this for extreme cases where your child is way out of line and I am not saying you come out and smack and literally abuse the child. When i was younger for example it wasn't that actual spankings that hurt it was more the leading up to it scaring you from doing the activity anyways i.e i stole some trinkets when i was 8, I was forced to return the objects as well as apologize and then get a spanking knowing it was coming.. i sure as hell never stole again O.O
also do you expect every parent to be a phychologist? =S
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On May 02 2012 19:05 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. There's nothing wrong about a man being with a man or a woman being with a woman. Your book doesn't have any convincing argument in it to prove me wrong.
You're approaching the issue as if the validity of the book is in question. Certainly it is for many. Having faith in the God from the Bible means that there is no "argument."
^_^
Thus is the problem with trying to completely rationalize something truly can't be.
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On May 02 2012 19:05 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. There's nothing wrong about a man being with a man or a woman being with a woman. Your book doesn't have any convincing argument in it to prove me wrong.
Interpretations change in sects and denominations in Christianity. Which is why lots of Christian denominations are fully accepting of homosexuality and do not interpret passage that hint that homosexuality is a sin as valid. Or interpret it different themselves.
Remember, the Bible was the biggest tool used by both advocates of slavery and abolitionists in America. Verses such as Colossians 3:22 were used for centuries to justify that owning slaves was acceptable. Various Christians will likely continue to use passages from the Bible to argue that homosexuality is wrong for centuries. But in all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if in a few decades it is only fringe Christians who hold on to these beliefs on homosexuality in America. I think that in most of Europe it's already only fringe Christian groups that still think homosexuality is a sin.
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On May 02 2012 18:29 NeonFox wrote:I would recommend physical punishment to treat this pastor's stupidity. Edit ; Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:27 guN-viCe wrote:On May 02 2012 17:05 ScienceNotBusiness wrote:
Unfortunately, people always have and always will pick and choose which parts of the bible they follow and which parts they don't. This is a case of people seeing the bible says that being "gay" is a sin to god and unnatural, and refuse to follow up on the part that says all people sin and they are forgiven.
I'm an agnostic and pretty anti-christian, it's plain and simple stupid people making other people look stupid
It's cute that you downplay it so hard, but the reality is is that these people are mentally insane, and contributing the insanity of our current and growing population, which chooses to obey their ignorant egoism of the refusal of modern day science in exchange for the peer pressure of modern and past day religion. What a fucking joke you people are. I agree with you, but 95% of the USA is religious. The world-wide religion statistic is similar. Where did you get those statistics, because after some research these numbers are wrong.
Semantics and polls will change the number considerably. IMO believing in God is synonymous with religion. According to wikipedia, people were polled about their belief in God and 92% did believe. Another wikipedia source states 78% believed in God, 15% believed in a "Universal spirit or higher power".
In that same source, it states that 15% of the USA is "irreligious". 78% identify as christian, 2.4% agnostic, 1.6 athiest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country
16% of the world is irreligious.
So not quite 95%, but close.
.2% of USA prison system is atheist according to this website
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
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On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin.
Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box?
Reading comprehension, poeple!
On May 02 2012 19:08 sc14s wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 18:43 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:16 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 18:10 Asrathiel wrote:On May 02 2012 18:07 sc14s wrote:
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture. My edit nothwithstanding, I'm pretty sure the image clearly explains that while adults hitting adults is against the law, adults hitting children is seen as 'discipline', and this makes no logical sense. Actually it does in the fact that they understand after getting spanked what they did was wrong, It conveys in the strongest of sense (pain) that something is wrong so you should not be doing it. How do you learn things are right and wrong as a child? trial and error- the right things get you positive results (generally) and wrong things get you negative results (i.e you are in the kitchen and touch your finger on the hot stove *OW* it burns gee mayby i shouldn't be touching the stove in the firstplace when it is on) They theories you are applying here are very outdated behaviorism. Upbringing of a child is more complex than giving negative and positive reinforcements at the right times. And there is great differences from some negative/positive reinforcements and others. Reinforcing through violence is reinforcing through fear. Whereas it may suceed in abolishing the behavior, it doesn't do so in a very "effective manner" (more to the point: it doesn't make your child a decent human being). The problem with fear induced reinforcements is that they mostly work as long as the threat is present. For instance as long as the child live under your roof. Absent of the threat, the child have no motivation to behave as you like it to. Now, you may succeed in inducing a fear in the child that it can't just move away from, but in doing so you are hurting the child emotionally and may even then not succeed in your endeavor. What you want to do is have your children internalize a set of good moral rules that they apply to their own behavior absent of threat. You do that by showing the way in your own actions and loving your child. Loved children don't usually go very wrong and when they do, most will regret it and try to change their ways. I won't spend to much time on the subject it is easy enough to read up on. As a disclaimer I will add that this view doesn't mean that a child go awry just because you hit it a few times during its upbringing. All parents make mistakes and you don't ruin the child doing so. Just don't make bad upbringing tecniques your go to choices or you will give yourself a harder time than was necessary. I will also add that a child that got "put straight" by violence may later internalize good morale through different means, so even if you taught your children not to fight by spanking them, it doesn't mean they will get violent as free adults. Well of course its more advanced than just good or bad behaviors and really I only mean this for extreme cases where your child is way out of line and I am not saying you come out and smack and literally abuse the child. When i was younger for example it wasn't that actual spankings that hurt it was more the leading up to it scaring you from doing the activity anyways i.e i stole some trinkets when i was 8, I got a spanking and was forced to return the objects as well as apologize.. i sure as hell never stole again O.O also do you expect every parent to be a phychologist? =S
Nono, they certainly doesn't have to be. Part of my message was that all parents make mistakes and that it quite okay. But it is unwise to advocate faulty upbringing tecniques. If experts provide some good directions and parents are kind and try their best, the child has as good chances as anyone can have.
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On May 02 2012 19:19 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin. Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box? Reading comprehension, poeple!
Saying that you have nothing against homosexuals, while simultaneously believing that homosexuality is a sin can reasonably be construed as intelectually dishonest. If you consider homosexuality a sin, that is obviously a special, additional, condemnation of homosexual people. The fact that other people are sinners too, and that you love everyone, is religious rhetoric that means nothing to me.
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On May 02 2012 19:08 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:05 Roe wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. There's nothing wrong about a man being with a man or a woman being with a woman. Your book doesn't have any convincing argument in it to prove me wrong. I wouldn't try to convince you, or anyone on TL, that I'm right and "you're" wrong. I'm just trying to articulate my beliefs, as a Christian, as they pertain to this discussion.
Well isn't that one of the problem here. Although you are thankfully enough not trying to convince anyone, you are still bringing beliefs into a discussion, which is kind of pointless.
What you say have no evidence at all to support it and that is a strong basis when discussing. I am not trying to tell you not to believe anything, but i don't think claims completly void of any real evidence (i don't think a book in itself can be considered evidence, as it doesn't prove anything about whos words it is. It is just claiming it) are really worth bringing into a discussion at all.
And not regarding you. I thought it was scientifically proven that homosexuality is not a choice. Why even discuss it.
And on the matter: Of course no one should physically abuse the child for anything. And certainly not for what you yourself consider "right". While i agree that some behavour is unwanted in society, for example bullying and murder. I think that it should be a consideration of maximising happines, instead of "this book says so". Of course, happiness must in some way be measured against a desire for freedom of choice though.
And physical abuse is in no way a desired thing in society.
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Religion when used like a weapon to control and stop our evolution is worse then a cancer.. This guy is a old and stupid man, that reads from a book instead of really understanding the words of a great man (Christ), he preached for peace and understanding, love and mercy..
He didn't speak about condoms, genders, race, color, etc..
Open your eyes and follow the man and the message not words on a book written thousands of years ago by people that didn't even know earth is round!
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On May 02 2012 19:01 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway. I pretty much agree and certainly hope he would unconditionally love the child. But I do think a parent can convey the message that they disprove of something without saying it makes the child unloved. I certainly am glad I am not that parent in that awkward situation, but Ithink it can be done. In my eyes it is not completely unlike believing parents who are hurt that teir children are atheist for example (please note I don't say the two situations are the same). Of course, these are not talks that should be had before the youth reached a certain maturity. Again, I would want for both parent and child that this wasn't necessary. I don't like it when christians openly dislike homosexuality. But it is not my place to get between that adult and his son.
I think there are a ton of different issues going on at the same time. From the parents POV there might be no difference between atheism and homosexuality but for the child there's a huge difference. An atheist will almost always know there's nothing wrong with him for not believing in God. A kid who is attracted to his own sex will almost always believe there's something wrong with _him_ if he was taught homosexuality is a sin (and usually even he wasn't).
IDK how these situations play out in practice. I suspect it's very hard to unconditionally love your homosexual child and believe that homosexuality is sinful. Something has to give.
On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse.
I don't get your metaphors at all. I take it you add the "die of starvation" part to emphasize the emotionally devastating effect of the message, but if there is anything other to it, it is very unclear to me. I think I disagree with this last paragraph though. [/QUOTE]
There's the element of going to hell for their sins.
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On May 02 2012 19:26 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:19 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin. Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box? Reading comprehension, poeple! Saying that you have nothing against homosexuals, while simultaneously believing that homosexuality is a sin can reasonably be construed as intelectually dishonest. If you consider homosexuality a sin, that is obviously a special, additional, condemnation of homosexual people. The fact that other people are sinners too, and that you love everyone, is religious rhetoric that means nothing to me.
Okay then. Seems a bit narrow minded to me.
It is natural to have ambigous feelings towards things. Things aren't as easy love or hate. Would I have learned from talking to believers is that they are often quite aware of such ambiguities and mixed feelings. The very idea that all human beings are sinners (thus somewhat dispicable I guess) yet loveable is an example of how religion constantly emphasize the two-fold or many-fold nature of things. Being reared in such an environment probably mean you are more aware of it than the average person.
So I don't think it is only rhetorics when a christian claims to love homosexuals even if the homosexual lifestyle is a sin to him. He think he means what he says. Also, notice how he put: he loves the homosexual (man) but can't approve of his homosexual actions (giving in to his desires). He isn't intellectually dishonest, he jsut sees things different that you and I.
On May 02 2012 19:26 Teoman wrote:And not regarding you. I thought it was scientifically proven that homosexuality is not a choice. Why even discuss it.
EDIT: Misqouted : (
Don't throw this around so lightly, I am sure it hasn't been. Common sense says it hasn't been, it is such a complex phenomenon.
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I do not think this works and it creates a society where it is acceptable to use violence on gays.
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Hahahahahahahahaha, religion.
Words cannot express how stupid it really is.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 02 2012 19:26 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:19 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin. Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box? Reading comprehension, poeple! Saying that you have nothing against homosexuals, while simultaneously believing that homosexuality is a sin can reasonably be construed as intelectually dishonest. If you consider homosexuality a sin, that is obviously a special, additional, condemnation of homosexual people. The fact that other people are sinners too, and that you love everyone, is religious rhetoric that means nothing to me.
What's wrong with loving a sinner? How would you propose religions work then, you either have to do away with the idea of immoral acts or the principle of loving others, they aren't mutually exclusive. If you feel they are mutually exclusive, how do you deal with people who have wronged you, is forgiveness a notion only for the religious? Should christians (or any other person who believes in immoral acts) feel conflicted for loving their kids even if their kids lie to them?
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On May 02 2012 19:33 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:26 Teoman wrote:
Well isn't that one of the problem here. Although you are thankfully enough not trying to convince anyone, you are still bringing beliefs into a discussion, which is kind of pointless. Don't throw this around so lightly, I am sure it hasn't been. Common sense says it hasn't been, it is such a complex phenomenon.
Okay, i might not have explained that enough and it may not have been to considerate written :D
What i was hoping to say was that you can discuss something based on faith. But that is just what it is: faith. It is basicly defined by not having evidence, because then i guess it wouldn't be faith.
So that is why i used the word pointless, because if someone says "I think homosexuality is a sin" (not trying to single you out :D) simply because they believe it or have read it in the bible (which is a matter of belief to) then that argument can't hold any weight against someone who can rationally explain it or even better, provide evidence. It does not mean that you are not allowed to believe otherwise, it simply means, as i said that it is pointless to bring it up.
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Just know that because a Pastor says these things
it is not what Jesus taught. If someone could point
me to a place in the New Testament where Jesus
advocated physically harming another person for
their sins please let me know. Jesus in fact saved a
woman who was going to be stoned to death for being caught in the act of adultery. If anything
Jesus would be telling this Pastor NOT to hard the
children but instead pray for them.
Matthew 5:17-18
"17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter,
will pass from the law until all is accomplished."
^ Jesus upholds the law of the Old Testament.
The Old Testament is full of commandments to kill criminals, smack children, beat disobedient slaves, etc.
It also says:
Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
The law, which Jesus upholds every part of, says that homosexual sex is an abomination.
To those of you who say that smacking of children is child abuse: how many of you were smacked as children and are now over 18? How many of you have raised children with or without smacking?
I was smacked as a kid and it's one of the best things my parents ever did for me. I wasn't at all abused or beaten. I can honestly say that I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now if I hadn't been smacked, and most people in my country agree with me, that smacking is not a bad thing. (Unfortunate, because it is now illegal to smack children in New Zealand. Democracy at work...)
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On May 02 2012 19:33 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:26 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 19:19 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin. Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box? Reading comprehension, poeple! Saying that you have nothing against homosexuals, while simultaneously believing that homosexuality is a sin can reasonably be construed as intelectually dishonest. If you consider homosexuality a sin, that is obviously a special, additional, condemnation of homosexual people. The fact that other people are sinners too, and that you love everyone, is religious rhetoric that means nothing to me. Okay then. Seems a bit narrow minded to me. It is natural to have ambigous feelings towards things. Things aren't as easy love or hate. Would I have learned from talking to believers is that they are often quite aware of such ambiguities and mixed feelings. The very idea that all human beings are sinners (thus somewhat dispicable I guess) yet loveable is an example of how religion constantly emphasize the two-fold or many-fold nature of things. Being reared in such an environment probably mean you are more aware of it than the average person. So I don't think it is only rhetorics when a christian claims to love homosexuals even if the homosexual lifestyle is a sin to him. He think he means what he says. Also, notice how he put: he loves the homosexual (man) but can't approve of his homosexual actions (giving in to his desires). He isn't intellectually dishonest, he jsut sees things different that you and I. Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:26 Teoman wrote:
Well isn't that one of the problem here. Although you are thankfully enough not trying to convince anyone, you are still bringing beliefs into a discussion, which is kind of pointless. Don't throw this around so lightly, I am sure it hasn't been. Common sense says it hasn't been, it is such a complex phenomenon.
I think the major double standard is that most sins like lying or stealing are things you can help. However, demanding that someone eschew homosexual actions is to demand that they remain celibate. I find it rather obnoxious that one would claim that such a requirement is no different than expecting their heterosexual friends to eschew from generally antisocial actions.
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On May 02 2012 19:29 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 19:01 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway. I pretty much agree and certainly hope he would unconditionally love the child. But I do think a parent can convey the message that they disprove of something without saying it makes the child unloved. I certainly am glad I am not that parent in that awkward situation, but Ithink it can be done. In my eyes it is not completely unlike believing parents who are hurt that teir children are atheist for example (please note I don't say the two situations are the same). Of course, these are not talks that should be had before the youth reached a certain maturity. Again, I would want for both parent and child that this wasn't necessary. I don't like it when christians openly dislike homosexuality. But it is not my place to get between that adult and his son. I think there are a ton of different issues going on at the same time. From the parents POV there might be no difference between atheism and homosexuality but for the child there's a huge difference. An atheist will almost always know there's nothing wrong with him for not believing in God. A kid who is attracted to his own sex will almost always believe there's something wrong with _him_ if he was taught homosexuality is a sin (and usually even he wasn't). IDK how these situations play out in practice. I suspect it's very hard to unconditionally love your homosexual child and believe that homosexuality is sinful. Something has to give. Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse. Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:01 hefty wrote:
I don't get your metaphors at all. I take it you add the "die of starvation" part to emphasize the emotionally devastating effect of the message, but if there is anything other to it, it is very unclear to me. I think I disagree with this last paragraph though. There's the element of going to hell for their sins.
I think you put way to much emphasis on this. To many believers (cartainly not all) hell is a place you go for your sins unless you are forgiven. Different societies have different opinions on how difficult this forgiveness is to obtain. To some it may sound very harsh rearing children in an environment where stories of hell are told as an example of condemnation, but it has been so in religious societies forever. Hell, like heaven, is a part of the world to these people and not something you live in constant fear of.
Just as these children are taught that hell is for sinners, they are taught that everyone sins and everyone can be forgiven. You are implying that the notion of hell is akin to psychological torture, while it is a pretty ordinary part of a many christians lives.
Yeah, it kinda baffles me as well to be honest, but I appreciate that this is how they view things. I admit I got a little taken aback when a religious girl once told me (knowing I am an atheist), that it was such a shame I had to burn in hell cause I were a nice guy. Odd to me, but I see were they are coming from.
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I don't even care that this guy hates gay people. I care that he is so stupid he thinks that a male toddler having a limp wrist is going to mean he will be a homosexual.
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On May 02 2012 19:42 taldarimAltar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:26 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 19:19 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin. Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box? Reading comprehension, poeple! Saying that you have nothing against homosexuals, while simultaneously believing that homosexuality is a sin can reasonably be construed as intelectually dishonest. If you consider homosexuality a sin, that is obviously a special, additional, condemnation of homosexual people. The fact that other people are sinners too, and that you love everyone, is religious rhetoric that means nothing to me. What's wrong with loving a sinner? How would you propose religions work then, you either have to do away with the idea of immoral acts or the principle of loving others, they aren't mutually exclusive. If you feel they are mutually exclusive, how do you deal with people who have wronged you, is forgiveness a notion only for the religious? Should christians (or any other person who believes in immoral acts) feel conflicted for loving their kids even if their kids lie to them?
I do not hold any of the beliefs you have assigned to me.
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On May 02 2012 16:25 b0mBerMan wrote: To be honest, I am one of those that are morally or philisophically vague about this isms - pro-gay, anti-gay, prolife, pro-abortion, etc. I don't really feel the need to stand of one side of the fence or the other. I feel that these are mere natural tensions that occur in a complex society and eventually will play out on what is really for the common good, as it has in most cases, such as with racism, semitism, etc (at least the vulgar part of it).
first of all, i'm pretty sure you mean ANTIsemitism.
are you serious? those 'natural tensions' 'play out' because people fight against racism, ANTIsemitism etc., because people chose a side instead of being 'morally or philosophically vague'. its also quite obvious that none of those problems are solved yet. just look around in the world.
you also write: 'Throughout history there are many cases of these, in the end what will count and be considered "humane" is who wins the moral battle.'
i am not sure i understand what you are trying to tell us. you chose not to chose sides, because you do not feel the need for it, because eventually others will fight the struggle and one side will win and dictate the moral point of view. at first i thought u must be trying to criticize something with your statements, but after all i think you are using them to justify that you yourself are not choosing sides. sir, i think you are a sheep.
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
Everybody except Vermont xD
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He should be locked up for this. Inciting violence against children.
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On May 02 2012 16:33 Aelfric wrote:
I could never understand why people be anti-gay. What are they trying to protect the public from? Being gay is a part of reality, let the people live however they want lol. It's not like they will ass rape you in the ATM all of a sudden...
well, to put it in the words the homophobes would use: "new things be scary and i hates them!"
If god exists I find it hard to believe he/she would care about something as trivial as what people like to do with their weiner.
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I agree with him. USA!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 02 2012 19:45 Hertzy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 19:33 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:26 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 19:19 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 19:01 Hertzy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin. Hold on. He did say he thinks a homoesexual lifestyle is a sin and he doesn't try to run from that. He can love sinners though, as to him every is a sinner in their own way. Nothing dishonest about it, you just seem to have a need for his alliances to fit in to your box? Reading comprehension, poeple! Saying that you have nothing against homosexuals, while simultaneously believing that homosexuality is a sin can reasonably be construed as intelectually dishonest. If you consider homosexuality a sin, that is obviously a special, additional, condemnation of homosexual people. The fact that other people are sinners too, and that you love everyone, is religious rhetoric that means nothing to me. Okay then. Seems a bit narrow minded to me. It is natural to have ambigous feelings towards things. Things aren't as easy love or hate. Would I have learned from talking to believers is that they are often quite aware of such ambiguities and mixed feelings. The very idea that all human beings are sinners (thus somewhat dispicable I guess) yet loveable is an example of how religion constantly emphasize the two-fold or many-fold nature of things. Being reared in such an environment probably mean you are more aware of it than the average person. So I don't think it is only rhetorics when a christian claims to love homosexuals even if the homosexual lifestyle is a sin to him. He think he means what he says. Also, notice how he put: he loves the homosexual (man) but can't approve of his homosexual actions (giving in to his desires). He isn't intellectually dishonest, he jsut sees things different that you and I. I think the major double standard is that most sins like lying or stealing are things you can help. However, demanding that someone eschew homosexual actions is to demand that they remain celibate. I find it rather obnoxious that one would claim that such a requirement is no different than expecting their heterosexual friends to eschew from generally antisocial actions.
Well, I agree that it is a bad spot parent put themselves and their children in if they want to let the child know that they can't condone of homosexuality. I certainly hope they are fantastic parents (in all other regards) and able to handle the situation with sufficient care.
It may, and may not, be a bit like the example I mentioned earlier with the atheist child of a religious parent. A girl close to me has been a believer but now thinks herself an agnostic atheist. Her mother is naturally enough very hurt and hopes that the daughter will convert. To her mother atheism means hell, although she would never openly say this to her beloved daughter. The daughter knows this, which means she tries not to bring up the issue too much as it would hurt her mother. The two of them love eachother unconditionally. It isn't such a strange thing after all. People can love what hurt them and love what is very different from them.
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On May 02 2012 19:52 horsebanger wrote:
I agree with him. USA!
I think you are going to get banned in the near future.
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On May 02 2012 19:44 zany_001 wrote:Show nested quote +Just know that because a Pastor says these things
it is not what Jesus taught. If someone could point
me to a place in the New Testament where Jesus
advocated physically harming another person for
their sins please let me know. Jesus in fact saved a
woman who was going to be stoned to death for being caught in the act of adultery. If anything
Jesus would be telling this Pastor NOT to hard the
children but instead pray for them. Matthew 5:17-18 "17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." ^ Jesus upholds the law of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is full of commandments to kill criminals, smack children, beat disobedient slaves, etc. It also says: Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." The law, which Jesus upholds every part of, says that homosexual sex is an abomination. To those of you who say that smacking of children is child abuse: how many of you were smacked as children and are now over 18? How many of you have raised children with or without smacking? I was smacked as a kid and it's one of the best things my parents ever did for me. I wasn't at all abused or beaten. I can honestly say that I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now if I hadn't been smacked, and most people in my country agree with me, that smacking is not a bad thing. (Unfortunate, because it is now illegal to smack children in New Zealand. Democracy at work...)
Wait! How does some people agreing make something a good thing? And how can you be certain that you are better because you were "Smacked"? Can you forsee alternative futures.
I am sure that the government had more research and stastistic in place to outlaw child smacking than your "agreeing".
I was not smacked as a kid. Does that mean that i am by your words "less good". I have yet to see any evidence that smacking children is good for them, but i will not make an uninformed claim that " I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now" if i hadn't been smacked.
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Damn me and my limp wrist.
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On May 02 2012 17:15 Rannasha wrote:
Why not just live and let live?
The first thing that poped into my head when i read this was "because that would be something Christ would do!"
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On May 02 2012 19:43 Teoman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:33 hefty wrote:On May 02 2012 19:26 Teoman wrote:
Well isn't that one of the problem here. Although you are thankfully enough not trying to convince anyone, you are still bringing beliefs into a discussion, which is kind of pointless. Don't throw this around so lightly, I am sure it hasn't been. Common sense says it hasn't been, it is such a complex phenomenon. Okay, i might not have explained that enough and it may not have been to considerate written :D What i was hoping to say was that you can discuss something based on faith. But that is just what it is: faith. It is basicly defined by not having evidence, because then i guess it wouldn't be faith. So that is why i used the word pointless, because if someone says "I think homosexuality is a sin" (not trying to single you out :D) simply because they believe it or have read it in the bible (which is a matter of belief to) then that argument can't hold any weight against someone who can rationally explain it or even better, provide evidence. It does not mean that you are not allowed to believe otherwise, it simply means, as i said that it is pointless to bring it up.
Thank you for your answer, I apprecaite it, but I misqouted you there. See the ealier post for the correction if you wish to.
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On May 02 2012 19:47 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:29 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 19:01 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway. I pretty much agree and certainly hope he would unconditionally love the child. But I do think a parent can convey the message that they disprove of something without saying it makes the child unloved. I certainly am glad I am not that parent in that awkward situation, but Ithink it can be done. In my eyes it is not completely unlike believing parents who are hurt that teir children are atheist for example (please note I don't say the two situations are the same). Of course, these are not talks that should be had before the youth reached a certain maturity. Again, I would want for both parent and child that this wasn't necessary. I don't like it when christians openly dislike homosexuality. But it is not my place to get between that adult and his son. I think there are a ton of different issues going on at the same time. From the parents POV there might be no difference between atheism and homosexuality but for the child there's a huge difference. An atheist will almost always know there's nothing wrong with him for not believing in God. A kid who is attracted to his own sex will almost always believe there's something wrong with _him_ if he was taught homosexuality is a sin (and usually even he wasn't). IDK how these situations play out in practice. I suspect it's very hard to unconditionally love your homosexual child and believe that homosexuality is sinful. Something has to give. On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse. On May 02 2012 19:01 hefty wrote:
I don't get your metaphors at all. I take it you add the "die of starvation" part to emphasize the emotionally devastating effect of the message, but if there is anything other to it, it is very unclear to me. I think I disagree with this last paragraph though. There's the element of going to hell for their sins. I think you put way to much emphasis on this. To many believers (cartainly not all) hell is a place you go for your sins unless you are forgiven. Different societies have different opinions on how difficult this forgiveness is to obtain. To some it may sound very harsh rearing children in an environment where stories of hell are told as an example of condemnation, but it has been so in religious societies forever. Hell, like heaven, is a part of the world to these people and not something you live in constant fear of. Just as these children are taught that hell is for sinners, they are taught that everyone sins and everyone can be forgiven. You are implying that the notion of hell is akin to psychological torture, while it is a pretty ordinary part of a many christians lives. Yeah, it kinda baffles me as well to be honest, but I appreciate that this is how they view things. I admit I got a little taken aback when a religious girl once told me (knowing I am an atheist), that it was such a shame I had to burn in hell cause I were a nice guy. Odd to me, but I see were they are coming from.
Ok, I guess I'll have to reappraise my view on telling someone they'll go to hell. At the very least I admit I don't really understand how religious people view it. I still think the number one issue is how their subject sees it. If someone is scared by being threatened with hell, it's the accuser responsibility to pick up on it. I guess it's the same with all forms of (possible) psychological abuse. If the victim thinks it's abuse, chances are they're right.
OTOH, I'm not very sympathetic to the "it's been like this forever" argument. The past was very different, with the vast majority concerned with day to day survival, having no education and certainly no access to differing points of views. And maybe those who did have access to these luxuries should be condemned for their lack of empathy.
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On May 02 2012 19:59 Teoman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:44 zany_001 wrote:Just know that because a Pastor says these things
it is not what Jesus taught. If someone could point
me to a place in the New Testament where Jesus
advocated physically harming another person for
their sins please let me know. Jesus in fact saved a
woman who was going to be stoned to death for being caught in the act of adultery. If anything
Jesus would be telling this Pastor NOT to hard the
children but instead pray for them. Matthew 5:17-18 "17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." ^ Jesus upholds the law of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is full of commandments to kill criminals, smack children, beat disobedient slaves, etc. It also says: Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." The law, which Jesus upholds every part of, says that homosexual sex is an abomination. To those of you who say that smacking of children is child abuse: how many of you were smacked as children and are now over 18? How many of you have raised children with or without smacking? I was smacked as a kid and it's one of the best things my parents ever did for me. I wasn't at all abused or beaten. I can honestly say that I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now if I hadn't been smacked, and most people in my country agree with me, that smacking is not a bad thing. (Unfortunate, because it is now illegal to smack children in New Zealand. Democracy at work...) Wait! How does some people agreing make something a good thing? And how can you be certain that you are better because you were "Smacked"? Can you forsee alternative futures. I am sure that the government had more research and stastistic in place to outlaw child smacking than your "agreeing". I was not smacked as a kid. Does that mean that i am by your words "less good". I have yet to see any evidence that smacking children is good for them, but i will not make an uninformed claim that " I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now" if i hadn't been smacked.
People agreeing on something does not make it true (argumentum ad populum). I merely stated that to lead on to the illegality of smacking in NZ.
I know myself fairly well, I was a pretty unruly, break-the-rules kid and smacking kept me on the right side of the law.
Over 87.6% of those in NZ who voted in a referendum to prevent the anti-smacking bill (so called) thought that smacking should be legal. The government didn't change the law. The reason they changed it in the first place was most likely in keeping with UN specifications, to improve their trade rating. Regardless, that was merely an aside and not the main part of what I was saying.
I never said that not being smacked made you a worse kid. Straw man argument.
There are plenty of kids I know who weren't smacked and are "nice" kids. But there are plenty of kids I know who weren't smacked and are NOT "nice" kids, and others with similar temperaments who WERE smacked who turned out much better.
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
None of them. He's a whack job and they exist in your country as well.
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On May 02 2012 20:09 zany_001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:59 Teoman wrote:On May 02 2012 19:44 zany_001 wrote:Just know that because a Pastor says these things
it is not what Jesus taught. If someone could point
me to a place in the New Testament where Jesus
advocated physically harming another person for
their sins please let me know. Jesus in fact saved a
woman who was going to be stoned to death for being caught in the act of adultery. If anything
Jesus would be telling this Pastor NOT to hard the
children but instead pray for them. Matthew 5:17-18 "17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." ^ Jesus upholds the law of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is full of commandments to kill criminals, smack children, beat disobedient slaves, etc. It also says: Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." The law, which Jesus upholds every part of, says that homosexual sex is an abomination. To those of you who say that smacking of children is child abuse: how many of you were smacked as children and are now over 18? How many of you have raised children with or without smacking? I was smacked as a kid and it's one of the best things my parents ever did for me. I wasn't at all abused or beaten. I can honestly say that I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now if I hadn't been smacked, and most people in my country agree with me, that smacking is not a bad thing. (Unfortunate, because it is now illegal to smack children in New Zealand. Democracy at work...) Wait! How does some people agreing make something a good thing? And how can you be certain that you are better because you were "Smacked"? Can you forsee alternative futures. I am sure that the government had more research and stastistic in place to outlaw child smacking than your "agreeing". I was not smacked as a kid. Does that mean that i am by your words "less good". I have yet to see any evidence that smacking children is good for them, but i will not make an uninformed claim that " I wouldn't be as "good" a person as I am now" if i hadn't been smacked. People agreeing on something does not make it true (argumentum ad populum). I merely stated that to lead on to the illegality of smacking in NZ. I know myself fairly well, I was a pretty unruly, break-the-rules kid and smacking kept me on the right side of the law. Over 87.6% of those in NZ who voted in a referendum to prevent the anti-smacking bill (so called) thought that smacking should be legal. The government didn't change the law. The reason they changed it in the first place was most likely in keeping with UN specifications, to improve their trade rating. Regardless, that was merely an aside and not the main part of what I was saying. I never said that not being smacked made you a worse kid. Straw man argument. There are plenty of kids I know who weren't smacked and are "nice" kids. But there are plenty of kids I know who weren't smacked and are NOT "nice" kids, and others with similar temperaments who WERE smacked who turned out much better.
Child abuse is never okay. It's this silly attitude of "I got beat, so I'm gonna beat my kids" that keeps this going generation after generation. Please just stop.
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United States42516 Posts
Closing this because there is literally no debate to be had here.
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EPT
