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On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business.
Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway.
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse.
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On May 02 2012 16:54 ThePhan2m wrote:
We Christians love gays, and so does Jesus. Though the bible is pretty clear that living your gayness is a sin, and no more a sin as any other sin like lying, stealing, cheating on your wife etc etc. God loves sinners, and he wants to help them.
This pastor is typical for many churches that put way to much emphasis on it, and hate it like anything else. The pastor need to realize that he is no better than anyone, and that he need to get some compassion and love with their dealing with people instead of all this hardness.
See, there's a problem, you can't just group up being gay in the same category as lying/stealing/cheating and act as if it's not a big deal because being gay IS NOT A CHOICE. It's EXACTLY the same as calling, I don't know, midgets sinners because their genetic code got "messed up". EXACTLY the same. The difference is that sex related issues are always super relevant and concerning to human beings because it's one of the most basic instincts and our brain has the tendency to go "WHA?" when it sees something against the norm.
You can't just waltz through it with that good old "Bible says some things, but the important thing is that Jesus loves you, blah blah blah". I respect your position, it just amazes me to what ends people will lie to themselves just to make everything fit instead of applying common sense.
Other than this off-topic, this is obviously ridiculous. People can believe all they want as long as they can function in a society, but when someone advocates physical violence there's no room for excuses.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot. Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity. I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus. Show nested quote +You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
Just saying you are not the ambassador of Christianity any more than this pastor is. Also homosexuality is not morally wrong or sinful in any way. Ain't no God.
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On May 02 2012 18:16 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:10 Asrathiel wrote:On May 02 2012 18:07 sc14s wrote:
ANNNND you didn't explain anything. I really hate when people do this. If you don't agree with an issue you dont fucking troll by posting a stupid ass picture. My edit nothwithstanding, I'm pretty sure the image clearly explains that while adults hitting adults is against the law, adults hitting children is seen as 'discipline', and this makes no logical sense. Actually it does in the fact that they understand after getting spanked what they did was wrong, It conveys in the strongest of sense (pain) that something is wrong so you should not be doing it. How do you learn things are right and wrong as a child? trial and error- the right things get you positive results (generally) and wrong things get you negative results (i.e you are in the kitchen and touch your finger on the hot stove *OW* it burns gee mayby i shouldn't be touching the stove in the firstplace when it is on)
They theories you are applying here are very outdated behaviorism. Upbringing of a child is more complex than giving negative and positive reinforcements at the right times. And there is great differences from some negative/positive reinforcements and others.
Reinforcing through violence is reinforcing through fear. Whereas it may suceed in abolishing the behavior, it doesn't do so in a very "effective manner" (more to the point: it doesn't make your child a decent human being). The problem with fear induced reinforcements is that they mostly work as long as the threat is present. For instance as long as the child live under your roof. Absent of the threat, the child have no motivation to behave as you like it to. Now, you may succeed in inducing a fear in the child that it can't just move away from, but in doing so you are hurting the child emotionally and may even then not succeed in your endeavor.
What you want to do is have your children internalize a set of good moral rules that they apply to their own behavior absent of threat. You do that by showing the way in your own actions and loving your child. Loved children don't usually go very wrong and when they do, most will regret it and try to change their ways.
I won't spend to much time on the subject it is easy enough to read up on. As a disclaimer I will add that this view doesn't mean that a child go awry just because you hit it a few times during its upbringing. All parents make mistakes and you don't ruin the child doing so. Just don't make bad upbringing tecniques your go to choices or you will give yourself a harder time than was necessary. I will also add that a child that got "put straight" by violence may later internalize good morale through different means, so even if you taught your children not to fight by spanking them, it doesn't mean they will get violent as free adults.
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This is an extremist, like Islamic terrorists, so on. However, I still see this thread being an opportunity for cliched anti-Christian, anti-religion rants.
Do not generalize.
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On May 02 2012 18:40 MidKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:54 ThePhan2m wrote:
We Christians love gays, and so does Jesus. Though the bible is pretty clear that living your gayness is a sin, and no more a sin as any other sin like lying, stealing, cheating on your wife etc etc. God loves sinners, and he wants to help them.
This pastor is typical for many churches that put way to much emphasis on it, and hate it like anything else. The pastor need to realize that he is no better than anyone, and that he need to get some compassion and love with their dealing with people instead of all this hardness. You can't just waltz through it with that good old "Bible says some things, but the important thing is that Jesus loves you, blah blah blah". I respect your position, it just amazes me to what ends people will lie to themselves just to make everything fit instead of applying common sense.
This may not be popular but you don't have to respect someone's position if it's harmful to others. I don't respect a racist person's position as to why he dislikes a particular race. Why on Earth should I be expected to respect someone's position when it's a position that something completely natural that they cannot change is wrong? You can still respect their religion, their Bible, and their God. But you don't have to respect their position that homosexuality is a sin. And in reality, you shouldn't.
One can't change their sexuality in the same way a person can't change their race or eye color or blood type. It's ridiculous that we are expected to tolerate and respect a position that only causes severe pain simply because it's incorporated into someone's religious views. And not even all Christians think that homosexuality is a sin.
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On May 02 2012 18:42 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot. I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity. I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus. You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. Just saying you are not the ambassador of Christianity any more than this pastor is. Also homosexuality is not morally wrong or sinful in any way. Ain't no God.
Right, I'm certainly not "THE" ambassador of Christianity, nor would I ever claim to be.
There are a lot of people that visit TeamLiquid who may have never sat in a Christian church, read the Bible, etc. I think its fair for me to try and give a voice to another part of the Christian community that otherwise might not have been heard.
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On May 02 2012 16:28 Denzil wrote:
How many american states are this hardcore anti gay?
It took one post for the American bashing to begin....
Honestly, Palestinians and Israelites have been KILLING each other in the name of the bible for years, yet one pastor makes an anti gay remark and the rest of the world flips shit about America? What is truly sickening is how the rest of the world blindly hates America while they refuse to open their eyes to the obsurdities around them in other countries.
At least the mods on this site should know better, you guys are just as bad for enabling it.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot.
It's hard to know for sure what he actually meant. My view is if you're going to joke about hurting children you'd better make _very sure_ that everyone understands it's a joke. I guess I can't prove that he literally meant punching kids. Maybe he didn't either. But it's still very, very wrong to joke about it in this context.
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On May 02 2012 16:44 Zvenn3n wrote:
Hardcore anti-gay speaker. Looks at critic. Christian. Big surprise.
Honestly, I never understood why a lot of Christians hate gay people. What did they ever do to them?
People are free to live their lives as they see fit (within reason, of course), and being gay sure as hell doesn't put anyone else at risk. Is it because it's "wrong"? Who said that? The Bible? Sorry, but that is about as subjective a source as can be.
You might think that it's wrong for your children to be gay, but that sure as hell doesn't justify violence, neither mental nor physical. And if you're thinking "He just means a little tap on the shoulder", then you're wrong. He says "A GOOD punch", which in my book, is pretty damn hard.
Let people become what they want to become, not what someone else wants them to be.
He's the pastor of a radical and independent protestant denomination. He's hardly representative of Christianity in general, and is similarly hardly exemplary.
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Bread and wine are supernaturally transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ.
I follow my own path.
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Hardcore extremist american Christian makes a statement. Nothing to do here. This isn't an argument that can be won, because religion is involved. Religious people will argue with eachother as to what the right interpretation is of the bible considering gay people. Everyone else is going to argue with the religious people that there is actually nothing wrong with being gay for many reasons and the religious people will counter with. But it says so in the bible.
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On May 02 2012 18:50 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:42 Crushinator wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:24 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 18:09 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:56 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:50 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. I think the saddest part about the story is that it might encourage a parent to hurt their child. I listened to the sermon's audio via the link in the OP. The transcript the OP provided doesn't really convey the true meaning of what the preacher was trying to say. I don't agree with the word choice he went with to get his message across, but I also didn't get the impression that he is advocating parents "hurt" their children. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but speech(?) is more about how you say it (body language, tone of voice, etc) than what you say. I personally have never sat in Church and heard a preacher say that parents, or anyone else, should harm anyone for anything be it physically or psychologically. I don't understand you clearly. Are you saying that you listened to the sermon and the transcript is a fabrication? Or that the transcript is accurate but shouldn't be taken literally? Or you just listened to a small part and concluded that he probably wouldn't advocate child abuse? I listened to the 1m41s audio excerpt of the sermon found in the source link of the OP. The transcript in the OP is accurate. I did not think the preacher was advocating child abuse. If I were to write on this forum, "I hate cats" it would be logical to assume that I do indeed hate cats. However, there are many, many different ways for me to verbally say "I hate cats" that would give you the impression that I really don't hate cats. That's probably a terrible example that only makes sense in my own mind, but I hope you can interpret what I'm trying to get across ^^ I actually went ahead and listened to the audio and have to disagree. It wasn't clear at all if he was kidding or not. I can see someone seeing this as literal advice. And if I was a gay child listening to it live, I'd be scared shitless. As others have pointed out your perception is distorted. You can't accept that a preacher would say that hurting children is ok. Which is strange because you are ok with hurting children in your own way (i.e telling them that they are sinful and unless they are prepared to suppress their most basic urges throughout their life they will suffer eternal torture as punishment.) Oh no. I absolutely believe that self described Christian preachers can and do say that hurting children (and people in general) is ok. I just did not get the impression that he literally meant for parents to punch their children. There's a lot of things about the sermon excerpt that I disagree with. I'm certainly not trying to defend what he said. I just feel like some of it is being sensationalized quite a lot. I'm pretty sure alot of Christians do consider some sins worse than others. The Catholic church for example has a pretty elaborate system of ranking the different sins in terms of severity. I'm not Catholic and I strongly disagree with their teachings, especially when it comes to sin, baptism, how you end up in Heaven or Hell, and Jesus. You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin. Just saying you are not the ambassador of Christianity any more than this pastor is. Also homosexuality is not morally wrong or sinful in any way. Ain't no God. Right, I'm certainly not "THE" ambassador of Christianity, nor would I ever claim to be. There are a lot of people that visit TeamLiquid who may have never sat in a Christian church, read the Bible, etc. I think its fair for me to try and give a voice to another part of the Christian community that otherwise might not have been heard.
Yes, I agree that this is perfectly reasonable. Its just that you expressed your personal dogma about sin as though it was the universally accepted position of christians. In reality it is probably not even a belief held by a majority. While I realize that this was probably not your intention, and it is slightly petty on my part to point it out, I do feel like it is important to be precise.
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On May 02 2012 18:45 theBALLS wrote:
This is an extremist, like Islamic terrorists, so on. However, I still see this thread being an opportunity for cliched anti-Christian, anti-religion rants.
Do not generalize.
I don't think many of us are generalizing. We're just pointing out that even the more mainstream Christian position is morally unacceptable from our point of view.
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Homophobic christian who advocates beating children? Well the only thing I think people would disagree upon is the christian part, and any talk of religion usually leads flaming and shit, pretty pointless thread, unless u wna bash religion
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I honestly don't even care about that he was talking about hitting children. The fact that he still thinks that sexuality is a choice is fucking sickening. And how is someone elses sexuality even going to affect you negatively in any way? Except for the sex itself, which you should have to witness whether the person in question is gay or straight, gay people are no different than your average straight person. Just let them do whatever they feel is right, and you focus on your own damn life.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 18:12 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:48 hypercube wrote:On May 02 2012 17:41 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2012 17:38 Kenshin_915 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:30 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope people don't stereotype all Christians or the Christian faith because of this. To me, that is always the saddest part about these kinds of stories. Hundreds/thousands/millions of people will look at this and say "HA! Christians are hateful bigots." Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't hate gay people. I don't think children should be physically abused for gay tendencies. I do believe that living a Gay lifestyle is a sin, but I have plenty of tendencies and behaviors myself that are sinful.
Hating and/or physically abusing Gay people is not what God and the Christian faith are about. So please, address the man and the issue, but do not lump all Christians into the same group as him. Yeah, I guess subtle, lifelong psycological abuse will just have to do. But ya' know, "hate the sin love the sinner etc etc." But the problem is, being gay isn't a lifestyle, as much as being straight is a lifestyle. It's normal. But hey, screw all the evidence that says so... I'm really sorry, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not advocating "subtle, lifelong psychological abuse." How did you arrive at the conclusion that I think that would be appropriate? He probably means referring to a perfectly normal lifestyle choice as sinful and threatening them with eternal torture for it. It may look acceptable to you but from the outside it fits the definition of abuse. Come on, guys, just cause you brought out your pitch forks doesn't mean you have to stab any christian with them. He likens a "gay lifestyle" to a sin, which I have to disagree with, but also makes it clear that many things are a sin to him - including some of his own behavior. Many christians view life like that - see human behavior as an endless struggle against sinful nature and ask for the forgivenes of their god who will love them any way. He may view homosexuality as a sin like a lie is a sin. Do this mean he would mistreat a gay son? Hopefully not, as he probably wouldn't scorn a lying child. If he would take actions to make his son live a different lifestyle - you can openly disagree and disrespect that, but he hasn't said anything of that nature yet. Also, we should bear in mind that it is a relatively new thing that homosexually is viewed as normal. We cannot expect every member of our society to suddenly agree and we have no right to tell people what to think. We can of course try to shield children from abuse, but certainly not from the directions given by loving parents who have other priorities than us. After all, most good parents have at one point or other in the upbringing of their children tried to push these children in a certain direction. Luckily children don't always do as their parents would like. As long as he isn't hurting his children it isn't our business. Here's the thing: I can make a mistake, hurt someone, lie and accept I made a mistake. I can apologize, maybe feel guilty, make amends and move on. How can a gay person live with himself if he thinks being gay is a sin? It's not like a mistake that can be changed or avoided in the future. Not without inhuman sacrifice anyway.
I pretty much agree and certainly hope he would unconditionally love the child. But I do think a parent can convey the message that they disprove of something without saying it makes the child unloved. I certainly am glad I am not that parent in that awkward situation, but Ithink it can be done. In my eyes it is not completely unlike believing parents who are hurt that teir children are atheist for example (please note I don't say the two situations are the same). Of course, these are not talks that should be had before the youth reached a certain maturity. Again, I would want for both parent and child that this wasn't necessary. I don't like it when christians openly dislike homosexuality. But it is not my place to get between that adult and his son.
On May 02 2012 18:34 hypercube wrote:
You are telling a person that something very basic about them is WRONG. That's very different from telling someone that they made a mistake, or even telling them that they made many mistakes.
It's not like a parent telling their children that they should study law, not music either. It's like a parent telling their children that if they don't study law they'll die of starvation and musicians are inherently bad people. Only slightly worse.
I don't get your metaphors at all. I take it you add the "die of starvation" part to emphasize the emotionally devastating effect of the message, but if there is anything other to it, it is very unclear to me. I think I disagree with this last paragraph though.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
That strikes me as intellectually dishonest; You claim you don't have anything against gay people, but then go on to say that an expression of homosexuality is a sin.
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Just like every other religion (Islam, Eastern Mysticism, etc..) there are extremists that DO NOT represent the WHOLE.
I identify myself of the Christian faith but one of the things that I recognize that God gave humanity was freedom of choice(literally from the start).
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE should have the right to live how they choose as long as it does not PHYSICALLY interfere with the rights of others.
Although I find it shameful, this "pastor" and I use that term loosely should be able to spread his fear mongering any way he chooses. As long as he doesn't actually interfere with another's rights.
If a parent chooses to abuse their child because of this man's beliefs then that is ON THEM.
Words have power, but only to those that GIVE them that power.
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On May 02 2012 18:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +You didn't answer the question: why do you keep saying "the gay lifestyle is a sin" and not "the straight lifestyle is a sin" as well? I didn't say it because I don't believe a physical relationship between a man and a woman is a sin. I do however believe that a physical relationship between a man and another man (or a woman and another woman) is a sin.
There's nothing wrong about a man being with a man or a woman being with a woman. Your book doesn't have any convincing argument in it to prove me wrong.
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EPT
