On May 02 2012 03:52 babylon wrote: I have no issue with bringing social justice issues to the table; what I'm annoyed about is people trying to pretend they actually care about social justice when all they want to do is create more drama and subject yet another community figure to a witchhunt. I highly doubt more than 10% of the people complaining in this thread about Destiny's language actually do anything outside of lambasting people on the internet to promote social justice when confronted with problems in the real world.
If you're gonna try to get Destiny fired, sure, go right ahead, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're making a "big change," especially considering the usual gaming population. Until your concern for these issues steps outside of "I'm going to make a post on the internet about it and then email the sponsors, let me feel good about myself for stamping out the use of racist slurs on a stream watched by a miniscule portion of the population, many of whom use it themselves and/or have encountered it before and have no issues with hearing it or using it in every day life and who couldn't care less if Destiny loses his team so long as he continues to stream," then ... well, I hope you see where I'm going here. What will emailing the sponsors do? Well, in one scenario, a major SC2 team loses its sponsorship and ... people still continue to use whatever words they want. In another, Destiny gets kicked and people still continue to use whatever words they want. Yet in another, nothing happens and people still continue to use whatever words they want.
I see a lot of people complaining that the people raising an outcry don't 'really' have the right motivations. They are merely swept up by outrage or love drama, and do not really care enough about what is wrong with racist language.
While this might be true (but really...what evidence do we have for claims about the motivations of these posters?) it does not change the fact that they are at least taking the right ACTION. That is, they may be doing the right thing, with the wrong motivation. This is a step in the direction of being a good person. As Aristotle argues, first we imitate good people and take good actions (maybe because we are forced!), and this will eventually lead to a good character.
Sure, maybe people are just emailing Quantic and/or sponsors out of momentary passion. But I am alright with this. It is a step in the right direction.
My problem is that it doesn't even send a message about what is "right" or what is "wrong," just that the community has the power to jerk around progamers whenever it decides it's tired of them. I won't lie; I hate falsity, but that's not even the root of my problem with the responses in this thread. Getting swept up in the passion and hanging a community member not because you care for the issues you're even talking about but because you just want to see drama unfold is, yes, part of the issue, because it gives people the feeling that they're doing something, and then they use that as an excuse to not act when they see it happening right in front of their very eyes in the real world. "I object to the use of racist slurs on the internet! Surely that's enough?" is basically the internal reasoning that goes on, because most people are much too polite/afraid to tell people straight to their face that they're offended (if they are); or they'll just shy away and be massive hypocrites because they don't really care, but just like to pretend they do, and it's way easier to pretend online than in person, and hey, brownie points, I'm a good person if I act like I'm super-offended enough to get someone fired over this!
How do we address social justice? By first instilling actual consideration and care for the problems at hand, instead of encouraging people to fake consideration and care. Otherwise, the "right action" (as you consider it) and the "change" that action inspires is short-lived and impermanent, because it is not sincere, and there is no actual change taking place beneath the surface. All we have is a facade that will be lost anyways by the time the next generation rolls around.
There are appropriate ways to go about addressing social justice; trying to dismantle someone's career and livelihood on the internet is not it and does not do anything but fuel the flame.
On May 02 2012 04:20 Freye wrote: words are words, nobody gives a fuck, should i bring your mommy to pat your back and tell you that "he's just jealous"? You pissed him off by being an all-in'er, so he lashed out at you.
I like how people say idra isn't comparable, considering he's told people to go die and stuff like that, and that such a statement is pretty fine since we know it's just hot air uttered in frustration/annoyance, but a racial slur that is used in precisely the same way is going to bring you the complete army of the internet at your doorstep, pitchforks and all.
Stop being a pussy and welcome to the internet.
If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?
At this point its just people coming out of the woodwork to try and cause a shitstorm because they don't like Destiny for whatever reason. Which is fine, just don't watch the stream. But I think half of the posters no longer know what the original message even was, and are blindly lashing out.
On May 02 2012 03:57 Arghmyliver wrote: There is a popular adage -
Stick and stones may break my bones, But words can never hurt me.
The moral being - shit can only bring you down if you let it.
If you WANT it to mean something horrible, then it always will. And that's a fact.
If I called you Hot Dog and you took it as an offensive term for males, you know? You can let this shit get to you, or you can think to yourself "Gee I made him angry, SUCCESS!"
Except the words we're talking about already do mean something terrible. You don't have to take them that way, the words are being used because they're horrible slurs for a certain group of people. You can swear up and down that you don't mean it in that way, but you chose that word for a reason.
Words like nigger and faggot didn't always carry power as vehicles of racism. But I think they will for a long time in the future so long as people refuse to accept that they are used in other senses.
I don't understand why people are bothered so much, if people tossed out all the racial slurs targeted at my race in a game, I would just chuckle and move on to the next game, why can't all these posters realize they are just words lol, and should stop being offended for other people. Destiny has built his fanbase around his ragey antics and idgaf attitude, so why is it suddenly a big issue, is everyone really so thin-skinned?
It's great that you have thick skin, but not everybody does. And they shouldn't be expected to just deal with it when this shouldn't be acceptable in the first place.
so we should cater to thin skinned people instead?
I have to agree though if someone over the internet insulted my race, sexuality or gender I'm not going to break down into tears nor am I going to let a tear out, why? Because it's the fucking internet. People hide behind the internet because it's easy as a result you become desensitised to what you're doing because the consequences are less.
If you want to do it face to face in person, then we have a problem
It's not about catering to anybody, it's about being a reasonable human being and thinking about how what you say affects other people. The internet isn't just some faceless mass of people anymore, what happens here can and should have real life consequences for people.
On May 02 2012 04:21 besteady wrote: Why is it always white people that feel the need to defend the use of ratial slurs? Its almost like they are unable to relate to racism these words perpetuate.
Honestly, for all the criticism reddit gets for starting witchhunts and grabbing pitchforks all the time, this thread makes reddit look little league. People mailing sponsors directly (LOL ARE YOU UTTERLY STUPID?) and campaigning to get Destiny unfeatured, even wishing his son to get bullied in response....
I don't even like the guy, or watch his stream, but Jesus Christ. Get a grip guys, this is supposed to be TL not the front page of a scandal thriving newspaper. Making massive deals out of every little thing random people do cripples the scene more than the original act.
On May 02 2012 04:14 Phobbers wrote: Holy shit people. First thing I do today is herrr derr get on TL and this is the first thread I see. After that I go on over to Reddit to see if there is another thread, there isn't. Wasn't TL all up in arms about how Reddit is a massive shit hole for going on these massive witch hunts (see orb)? This is getting out of hand, and it seems to me that people only go out of their way to do these kinds of things because they don't like the person, or something idiotic like that.
Also it's Destiny, he defended his use of certain words on a sotg ages ago. You shouldn't be surprised.
Finally, there was a post earlier in this thread by babylon, and I feel it's the best one in here. And I hope more people manage to see it. The reasoning behind it? Because people want drama, and that's it. It's sickening to see what some of you are posting, just to fuel the hate and drama train. If anything, a lot of you should take a look at the things you've posted here and feel embarrassed.
On May 02 2012 03:52 babylon wrote: I have no issue with bringing social justice issues to the table; what I'm annoyed about is people trying to pretend they actually care about social justice when all they want to do is create more drama and subject yet another community figure to a witchhunt. I highly doubt more than 10% of the people complaining in this thread about Destiny's language actually do anything outside of lambasting people on the internet to promote social justice when confronted with problems in the real world.
If you're gonna try to get Destiny fired, sure, go right ahead, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're making a "big change," especially considering the usual gaming population. Until your concern for these issues steps outside of "I'm going to make a post on the internet about it and then email the sponsors, let me feel good about myself for stamping out the use of racist slurs on a stream watched by a miniscule portion of the population, many of whom use it themselves and/or have encountered it before and have no issues with hearing it or using it in every day life and who couldn't care less if Destiny loses his team so long as he continues to stream," then ... well, I hope you see where I'm going here. What will emailing the sponsors do? Well, in one scenario, a major SC2 team loses its sponsorship and ... people still continue to use whatever words they want. In another, Destiny gets kicked and people still continue to use whatever words they want. Yet in another, nothing happens and people still continue to use whatever words they want.
Since multiple people have quoted this post, I just want to reissue a word of warning. First, we do not really know the motivations of people who are upset with Destiny's behavior. We cannot be sure that all of their motivation to email Quantic and/or sponsors is from a desire for drama.
And we should not discount the thread just because some people might have the wrong motivations. We can't see into the minds of others. All that we can do is address their words and arguments. Ultimately, if they are making the right choice by emailing Quantic and/or sponsors, then this is, at least, a step in the right direction (regardless of their motivation).
It's instigated by "alternative gaming communities," which is taking advantage of TL as their own personal army. Check their sc2 general if you don't believe it.
I don't understand the implication that Destiny's use of racism is justified because it's in anger. Everybody man up, they're just words, don't get so upset about it.
By the way, Destiny is only mad because you attacked him from one base ingame. So he's justified using those words. He doesn't have to man up and not get offended by a strategy or not get all upset over something. But anyone who is against the throwing around of racial slurs should just shut up.
The people using that argument are so fucking hypocritical. If it's not ok to find it offensive because it doesn't matter, why does he get so offended when he loses in a game that he resorts to racism as his first fallback?
On May 02 2012 04:07 Tyree wrote: You are comparing crying to racial slurs? On what planet are we on? What is going on here??
"Got called a a gook/fag/nigger? Well too bad, go examine your life, its your problem!"
Do you understand just how utterly insane that sounds?
Someone can come up and call your mother a whore, and then straight up tell you that its your and your moms problem, not his. He is a fine individual, purely expressing his emotions, calling a woman a whore is just as normal as crying, eating and sleeping.
For the love of god what is going on in this thread!!!?
Congrats on taking what I said out of context! I'll go over this slowly so I can ensure you wont take anything out of context.
He claimed that would be a reasonable reaction for a casual gamer, but you would expect a pro to hold their composure.
Would you expect a casual gamer to break down in tears after losing? Absolutely not.
Now, with some basic logic, we have deduced a pro gamer doesn't always hold their composure. Great!
Now, Destiny expressed his displeasure in a different way. Was it the correct way to vent his anger? No. Shit happens. And like we deduced above, a regular person, let alone a progamer doesn't always act logically. No, the fact he actually got offended by what some one over the internet said really reflects what I believe are some personal issues going on in life. But great job taking more of my post out of context! If you continue to do so, I wont bother replying as I have a lot of work to do.
On May 02 2012 03:57 Arghmyliver wrote: There is a popular adage -
Stick and stones may break my bones, But words can never hurt me.
The moral being - shit can only bring you down if you let it.
If you WANT it to mean something horrible, then it always will. And that's a fact.
If I called you Hot Dog and you took it as an offensive term for males, you know? You can let this shit get to you, or you can think to yourself "Gee I made him angry, SUCCESS!"
Except the words we're talking about already do mean something terrible. You don't have to take them that way, the words are being used because they're horrible slurs for a certain group of people. You can swear up and down that you don't mean it in that way, but you chose that word for a reason.
Words like nigger and faggot didn't always carry power as vehicles of racism. But I think they will for a long time in the future so long as people refuse to accept that they are used in other senses.
I don't understand why people are bothered so much, if people tossed out all the racial slurs targeted at my race in a game, I would just chuckle and move on to the next game, why can't all these posters realize they are just words lol, and should stop being offended for other people. Destiny has built his fanbase around his ragey antics and idgaf attitude, so why is it suddenly a big issue, is everyone really so thin-skinned?
It's great that you have thick skin, but not everybody does. And they shouldn't be expected to just deal with it when this shouldn't be acceptable in the first place.
so we should cater to thin skinned people instead?
I have to agree though if someone over the internet insulted my race, sexuality or gender I'm not going to break down into tears nor am I going to let a tear out, why? Because it's the fucking internet. People hide behind the internet because it's easy as a result you become desensitised to what you're doing because the consequences are less.
If you want to do it face to face in person, then we have a problem
It's not about catering to anybody, it's about being a reasonable human being and thinking about how what you say affects other people. The internet isn't just some faceless mass of people anymore, what happens here can and should have real life consequences for people.
It doesn't affect me, but it seems to affect you.
Where is the middle ground we're supposed to stand on?
DETROIT -- Delmon Young was suspended by Major League Baseball on Monday for seven days without pay following his arrest on a hate crime harassment charge last week in New York.
The commissioner's office said the suspension is retroactive to Friday, when Young was arrested after a late-night tussle at his hotel during which police say he yelled anti-Semitic epithets.
"Those associated with our game should meet the responsibilities and standards that stem from our game's stature as a social institution," commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement. "An incident like this cannot and will not be tolerated. I understand that Mr. Young is regretful, and it is my expectation that he will learn from this unfortunate episode."
The statement from the commissioner's office also said that Young would be required to participate in a treatment program.
Young is eligible for reinstatement from the restricted list May 4.
The suspension will cost Young approximately $257,240 of his $6,725,000 salary.
Speaking before the Tigers game against the Kansas City Royals was postponed by rain, Detroit general manager Dave Dombrowski said Young will not appeal the ruling and that he will not face additional discipline by the team when he comes off the restricted list Friday.
"Under the (collective bargaining agreement), there's no dual discipline," he said. "He'll be activated and ready to play on Friday. If he's not in the lineup, that will be the manager's decision. He's been working out over the weekend, and took batting practice today, so he'll be physically ready on Friday."Around 2:30 a.m. Friday, Young was standing outside the team hotel in New York. Nearby, a group of about four Chicago tourists staying at the hotel were approached by a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David around his neck, according to police.
Afterward, as the group walked up to the hotel doors, Young started yelling anti-Semitic epithets, police said.
It was not clear whom Young was yelling at, but he got into a scuffle with the Chicago group, and a 32-year-old man was tackled and sustained scratches to his elbows, according to police and the criminal complaint.
Both Young and the group went inside the hotel, and at some point, police were called, and Young was arrested, police said. Young was first taken to a hospital because he was believed to be intoxicated, police said.
Young apologized to his teammates and fans in a statement before being arraigned hours after his arrest.
Dombrowski did not know any of the details of the treatment program. It is not known if Young would undergo sensitivity training, treatment for alcohol and anger issues or some combination.
"We have not been told those details, and we might never know all of them," he said. "When Miguel (Cabrera) was in a similar program last spring, I never saw the entire treatment program. The team is just told what they need to know to facilitate the player's work in the program."
Young is hitting .242 in 18 games, batting fifth in the order behind Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder. He has one homer and five RBIs.
There is a bit of a difference between the two situations...this guy actually got into a physical engagment and tackled someone. Destiny called someone a name. People are also calling for Destiny to be removed from the team/be banned from streaming on TL and such, while this guy, even though he did something more severe just isn't able to play for a week.
It's true that the physical aspect makes it different. However, the main emphasis of the story is the anti semetic stuff. Destiny believes that he should be immune and not responsible for anything he says because it's on the onus of other people not to be offended. I just find that to be a ridiculous stance to take. If he really believes that, he wouldn't have made so many posts bashing others in this thread who disagree with him because using his logic he shouldn't be so weak minded and take offense to what those people said. The onus is on him not to be offended.
I hate Destiny ever since he lost to Hanfy in the PokerStrategy.com Tourney 0-4, refused to gg every single time and went on to flame him on his stream how much of a faggot he is etc. how he sucks at sc2. lol. but loses 0-4. whatever. Destiny is not likable anymore.
If Orb is going to be scrutinized and punished for his actions then Destiny should be condemned as well.
Btw, how the fuck does Destiny keep getting away for calling people faggots on battlenet. and yet I got a fucking warning from blizzard just for saying "yo faggots"...
On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Nobody say it should be condoned. Majority of the ones against this witchhunt is against it because the proponents are explicitly targetting sponsors. These type of vigilante justice will result in significant collateral damage to the scene, as explained by iNcontroL, Alex Garfield, and Jason Lake.
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
well, when its enough then its enough
and for me, the absolute limit is reached
so u aim for the head, since quantic does not seem to care about destiny at all
did the orb story hurted esports sponsoring? no.
Yes, you just don't see it. What doesn't come forward or public doesn't mean it didn't have the intention to do so before.
I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.
EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.
I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.
Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.
*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.
I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.
starting 3:30
You're pretty naive. Now I'm not really picking sides in this debate, but the hypocrisy from these guys on this subject is ridiculous.
They're getting sponsored by these companies!!!
These guys are saying that because anything they do, they get the ability to apologize, explain it away, or deal with their managers instead of the real world. Their livelihood directly depends on this crap. But does it actually effect esports?? Of course not. Orb getting removed from casting the MC doesn't mean anything. And the fact is esports is moving so fast that sponsors aren't going to leave the scene, they're going to transfer their loyalty from one team/person to another.
By bringing this to sponsors you're causing these people additional headaches, you're not hurting esports.
Think for yourself man, don't listen to these talking heads constantly. They're great if you need to brush up on your PvZ but in real life they're out for themselves, just like everyone else.
On May 02 2012 04:25 Resilient wrote: Honestly, for all the criticism reddit gets for starting witchhunts and grabbing pitchforks all the time, this thread makes reddit look little league. People mailing sponsors directly (LOL ARE YOU UTTERLY STUPID?) and campaigning to get Destiny unfeatured, even wishing his son to get bullied in response....
I don't even like the guy, or watch his stream, but Jesus Christ. Get a grip guys, this is supposed to be TL not the front page of a scandal thriving newspaper. Making massive deals out of every little thing random people do cripples the scene more than the original act.
Trying to stop people who are not just a part, but at a forefront of our community, using racist slurs hurts the scene, allowing that to continue is GOOD for business is it?
If I were "debating" with someone on TL, and after losing said argument simply called the other side n-words, I would be temp or perma banned. Do you think that would be an inappropriate punishment and my language would have been fine?
On May 02 2012 04:25 Resilient wrote: Honestly, for all the criticism reddit gets for starting witchhunts and grabbing pitchforks all the time, this thread makes reddit look little league. People mailing sponsors directly (LOL ARE YOU UTTERLY STUPID?) and campaigning to get Destiny unfeatured, even wishing his son to get bullied in response....
I don't even like the guy, or watch his stream, but Jesus Christ. Get a grip guys, this is supposed to be TL not the front page of a scandal thriving newspaper. Making massive deals out of every little thing random people do cripples the scene more than the original act.
Yeah, quite amusing really. If all of these folks were engaged in anti-racism groups in the 'real world' and actually contributed positively to society in addition to throwing Destiny under the bus then I'd have no problem with it.
As I doubt very much these individuals show the same fire and brimstone with dealing with actual instances of racism in their day-to-day I stick to the characterisation of them as either being drama junkies, or being jealous of a figure's status in the community and using whatever ammunition they can find to get him removed from that position.
* Disclaimer. Obviously not everybody who disagrees with me on this issue is a moron, or is doing it for the wrong reason. Indeed there are many posts contrary to my personal viewpoints that I thought were intelligent, well-founded posts. I am merely venting at the drama whores.
I'm going to ignore the fact that the argument "it's okay he used a racial epithet because he was angry" is just plain silly for a moment and point out that Destiny uses racially charged language in a hell of a lot more situations than when he is angry at getting cheesed on ladder.
On May 02 2012 04:21 besteady wrote: Why is it always white people that feel the need to defend the use of ratial slurs? Its almost like they are unable to relate to racism these words perpetuate.
E: also why are you guys so lenient with the moderation? its times like these I miss SA.
Why do you feel the need to try to bring racism into this to fuel a flame? I highly doubt you can see through the computer screen and see the people talking. Your ignorant comments don't help the people who are trying to have legitimate conversations and trying to stop people from emailing sponsors and causing real damage to eSports.
Orb should not have gotten in trouble for what he said on ladder. MOST people that use offensive words on ladder are just angry and need a way to vent, i HIGHLY DOUBT that he was racist. Same for destiny, HE USES THESE WORDS ALL THE TIME. Why does everyone wants these streamers/players to get fired? Since when did TL became the battle net forum (dont deny it, read the stuff that is posted there and read the recent stuff here, YOU GUYS BECAME BATTLE NET). Before you click on destiny's stream there is a huge "WARNING I USE BAD WORDS" so if that gets you butthurt then DONT WATCH. It is like agreeing on the blizzard TOS and then complaining when blizzard ban you for using hacks. I dont like destiny as a player and i have no idea who orb is, but from what ive read, both of these players are just venting their anger and are using any words that are coming to their head. Have you people actually tried laddering and got cheesed before? Or as a zerg and a terran does some fancy marauder helions on you? It very frustrating and sometimes you just want to lash out so you can go to your next match. I HIGHLY doubt that destiny or orb thinks that a race is superior over another race (and if they are the context of the picture clearly indicate that destiny was just raging). Stop trying to ruin people's life and get your own or go back to battle net forums and post that stuff there. Sheesh you guys act like you have never raged on ladder before. Instead of finding someone to rage at, try getting better at the game so you can actually be good instead of being stuck in diamond telling everyone you are "high diamond, playing at a master level, but you watch gsl so you actually have a knowledge of a gm player, its just battle net is bad and you havent been promoted yet". No youre just bad and instead of spending time getting better youre trying to hunt down people and ruin their lives.
EPT
