On May 02 2012 04:35 striderxxx wrote: Any sort of racism is wrong. It's this sort of verbal racist assault that leads to bigger things down the line where kids are brainwashed to think it's ok and then grow up to be someone like George Zimmerman who shoots down others like Trayvon Martin.
...what? Mind explaining that logical jump? Destiny's mannerisms are killing the future's Trayvon Martins?
I never understood why ppl have fun in using faggot as a "bad" word. Comparing to the usuall gaming community I might be "grown up and old" but I think about the words that I write and I expect the same from the ppl that earn money through esports.
On May 02 2012 04:31 Argolis wrote: If you don't like it, don't watch it....? Why would you contact a sponsor?
Destiny's stream says he uses bad words. In most civilised peoples' heads, that means he swears etc, not that he throws racial slurs around as if they don't mean anything.
When playing on the ladder under his Quantic tag, Destiny represents both Quantic and their sponsors. What he says reflects on them. Going to sponsors hurts esports you say? Using racism as though it doesn't have any real connotations while representing large corporations does the exact same thing.
Not surprised by Destiny or the posts on here. I've never understood why or how he got so popular, but then when consider how a lot of online gamers are today, it doesn't surprise me.
Lots of ridiculous posts about justifying it because he lost a game and is angry. I've had people rage at me and I've raged at others when I've lost but I don't bring in racial slurs.
I think it's best to wait for some form of an official statement of this. I am undecided where I stand on this matter as there are 2 sides to this coin: On the other hand, people should be allowed to share their thoughts freely, but on the other hand racial slurs and indecent language can cause problems for the community in the long run (besides being offensive to some people of course). This is a great example case, and I am very interested in seeing how it will unfold.
On May 02 2012 04:31 Argolis wrote: If you don't like it, don't watch it....? Why would you contact a sponsor?
User was warned for this post
The person being offended was playing ladder not watching destiny's stream. Also, this type of action is pretty inappropriate for someone who wants to be a professional
I was wondering when the hammer was finally going to come down on this issue, I guess today is the day of the great pitchforking of Destiny. Wake up to 85 pages...
On May 02 2012 04:35 striderxxx wrote: Any sort of racism is wrong. It's this sort of verbal racist assault that leads to bigger things down the line where kids are brainwashed to think it's ok and then grow up to be someone like George Zimmerman who shoots down others like Trayvon Martin.
...what? Mind explaining that logical jump? Destiny's mannerisms are killing the future's Trayvon Martins?
I'd imagine he's saying that 'harmless' verbal/written racism has implications in terms of physical actions/violence down the line. Indeed it'd be a point of view I'd agree with to a degree, perpetuating negative stereotypes of particular ethnic groups over time does have a negative effect.
In this case I don't really think it is a valid point given that I don't think Destiny is actually perpetuating racial hatred but is merely using a pejorative term. Not ideal no, but not the same in terms of creating ethnic conflict.
I think this didn't offend you at all, as you probably hear it all the time on battle net. I am among those BM when I get allined game after game after game.... I think this was just a look who was BM to me, let me make a thread kind of deal.
This is far from his worst display, and yet he remains on the team. Why? He's a figure head. He draws LOTS of people to quantic, and his stream. They are keeping him for a reason.
I mean I know we all like to make a big-deal thread, but really? You did this, and typed up the whole PC OP just to try and get him the orb treatment.
Yes, he shouldn't do it. But, he does. I feel it's almost common place knowledge that he's a troll...?
On May 02 2012 04:29 seansye wrote: If Orb is going to be scrutinized and punished for his actions then Destiny should be condemned as well.
No, this is wrong stop thinking like this
2 wrongs don't make a right
This shit isn't productive for the community it needs to be bit in the ass and stopped right now, this behaviour of 'I HATE WHAT XYZ IS DOING IM GOING TO EMAIL THE SPONSORS' needs to stop and be killed off.
Although the funny thing is probably that these people think they're saving e-sports when they're really doing the opposite.
I think it's a fair point to raise the differences in the two cases to at least showcase the dangers of having these kind of decisions to be in the hands of the fanbase. Such inconsistencies are a natural consequence of fandom.
I didn't agree with the Orb case, neither do I think Destiny should be censured for this. However either way it should be a decision made on its own merits by the organisations in question, and not based upon how outraged TL's/reddits keyboard warriors get.
The worst part is, this will come back up down the line if "nothing happens"
I use " because I hope this hasn't become a witch hunt yet, I hope this is the discussion phase that Reddit has before a witch hunt.
I'm hoping that the only reason this thread is still open is because the mods want to be amused or they're using it as ban bait If this becomes an actual hunt and forces a Quantic response on the situation which I would hope should it reach that point is "We knew what we were getting in Steven when we took him onto the team". This problem will resurface 6 months down the line and the community will once again get outraged and then the community will hold Quantic by the balls with threats of messaging sponsors, and the cycle will just end up repeating except with some rightous keyboard warriors pounding out the emails to sponsors and at the end of the day all that happens is negative press for e-sports
On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Nobody say it should be condoned. Majority of the ones against this witchhunt is against it because the proponents are explicitly targetting sponsors. These type of vigilante justice will result in significant collateral damage to the scene, as explained by iNcontroL, Alex Garfield, and Jason Lake.
On May 02 2012 02:03 iNcontroL wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:55 Torte de Lini wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:54 noidontthinkso wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
well, when its enough then its enough
and for me, the absolute limit is reached
so u aim for the head, since quantic does not seem to care about destiny at all
did the orb story hurted esports sponsoring? no.
Yes, you just don't see it. What doesn't come forward or public doesn't mean it didn't have the intention to do so before.
I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.
EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.
I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.
Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.
I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.
starting 3:30
You're pretty naive. Now I'm not really picking sides in this debate, but the hypocrisy from these guys on this subject is ridiculous.
They're getting sponsored by these companies!!!
These guys are saying that because anything they do, they get the ability to apologize, explain it away, or deal with their managers instead of the real world. Their livelihood directly depends on this crap. But does it actually effect esports?? Of course not. Orb getting removed from casting the MC doesn't mean anything. And the fact is esports is moving so fast that sponsors aren't going to leave the scene, they're going to transfer their loyalty from one team/person to another.
By bringing this to sponsors you're causing these people additional headaches, you're not hurting esports.
Think for yourself man, don't listen to these talking heads constantly. They're great if you need to brush up on your PvZ but in real life they're out for themselves, just like everyone else.
Sponsors' first decision is not one team over another (or one player over another), it's whether they want to spend marketing dollars on esports or sports or tv marketing. There's nothing misleading about anything they said.
Trust me on this. I was one of the first sc2 competition sponsors, and my company exited the scene for good reasons (it aint worth the effort).
It's worth the effort for plenty of companies, and my point is that the reward you're getting is growing, not shrinking.
I might not know esports, but I sure as hell know business, and for companies like Razer, Steelseries, Soundblaster? This is their target market. They're not going anywhere. Even for the Monster's and the Red Bulls of the world, they're getting an awfully nice demographic if they're willing to pay a premium for it.
Anyone with a valid opinion that is worth trusting on this issue like JLake or Ottersareneat have huge conflicts of interest.
On May 02 2012 04:39 babo213 wrote: Not surprised by Destiny or the posts on here. I've never understood why or how he got so popular, but then when consider how a lot of online gamers are today, it doesn't surprise me.
Lots of ridiculous posts about justifying it because he lost a game and is angry. I've had people rage at me and I've raged at others when I've lost but I don't bring in racial slurs.
Keyword in your post "I" You're not Destiny and Destiny isn't you. Trying to use yourself as an example is beyond idiotic. No one here is the same, we're all humans and we express ourselves differently. Should Destiny have avoided that word? Hell yeah, because now this fucking mess is started because OP wanted to get some drama going. It's really sad how easily pro-players can be in the hands of internet warriors who could give less than one fuck about social issues in the real world. Down. Right. Sad.
On May 02 2012 04:38 Offhand wrote: People can swear on the internet, your mother can't hear it.
Yes, even e-famous people.
Yet another person conflating swearing with using racial epithets.
It's amazing that this needs clearing up but since I've seen maybe 50 similar messages: People are not upset that Destiny used 'inappropriate language'. They are upset that Destiny routinely spouts racism while being a featured streamer and a member of a fairly prominent team. Do you honestly think that this thread would exist if Destiny had said "Fuck off asshole"?
On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Nobody say it should be condoned. Majority of the ones against this witchhunt is against it because the proponents are explicitly targetting sponsors. These type of vigilante justice will result in significant collateral damage to the scene, as explained by iNcontroL, Alex Garfield, and Jason Lake.
On May 02 2012 02:03 iNcontroL wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:55 Torte de Lini wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:54 noidontthinkso wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
well, when its enough then its enough
and for me, the absolute limit is reached
so u aim for the head, since quantic does not seem to care about destiny at all
did the orb story hurted esports sponsoring? no.
Yes, you just don't see it. What doesn't come forward or public doesn't mean it didn't have the intention to do so before.
I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.
EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.
I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.
Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.
I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.
You're pretty naive. Now I'm not really picking sides in this debate, but the hypocrisy from these guys on this subject is ridiculous.
They're getting sponsored by these companies!!!
These guys are saying that because anything they do, they get the ability to apologize, explain it away, or deal with their managers instead of the real world. Their livelihood directly depends on this crap. But does it actually effect esports?? Of course not. Orb getting removed from casting the MC doesn't mean anything. And the fact is esports is moving so fast that sponsors aren't going to leave the scene, they're going to transfer their loyalty from one team/person to another.
By bringing this to sponsors you're causing these people additional headaches, you're not hurting esports.
Think for yourself man, don't listen to these talking heads constantly. They're great if you need to brush up on your PvZ but in real life they're out for themselves, just like everyone else.
Sponsors' first decision is not one team over another (or one player over another), it's whether they want to spend marketing dollars on esports or sports or tv marketing. There's nothing misleading about anything they said.
Trust me on this. I was one of the first sc2 competition sponsors, and my company exited the scene for good reasons (it aint worth the effort).
It's worth the effort for plenty of companies, and my point is that the reward you're getting is growing, not shrinking.
I might not know esports, but I sure as hell know business, and for companies like Razer, Steelseries, Soundblaster? This is their target market. They're not going anywhere. Even for the Monster's and the Red Bulls of the world, they're getting an awfully nice demographic if they're willing to pay a premium for it.
Anyone with a valid opinion that is worth trusting on this issue like JLake or Ottersareneat have huge conflicts of interest.
You are not in the full picture then if you only have half the story.
You cant draw conclusions on incomplete evidence with such certainty.
He should have just called Warden a retard or something, rather than throwing in terms like faggot and gook. No point starting up all this bullshit drama when he could have taken an extra 5seconds to think about it and just tell warden he was an idiot or whatever he felt.
On May 02 2012 04:31 Argolis wrote: If you don't like it, don't watch it....? Why would you contact a sponsor?
"if you dont like it, dont watch it" destiny is featured. He is on the front page of TL when he is streaming. newcomers may not want to see such words of hate and discrimination, but they will click a user with many viewers. they may click destiny's. I think that since some people dont want to be a part of this or see this kind of stuff, destiny should be removed from featured streaming. graphic language is not the same as prejudice slurs.
Okay, so you clicked on it and you didn't like it. Turn it off and don't watch it again.
If you turn on your TV guide, you tune into a show you've never heard of before. Family Guy, that sounds wholesome and family oriented. 30 seconds in, you are offended, what do you do?
Contact the station/companies involved and tell them you are no longer buying any products featured in the commercials?
On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Nobody say it should be condoned. Majority of the ones against this witchhunt is against it because the proponents are explicitly targetting sponsors. These type of vigilante justice will result in significant collateral damage to the scene, as explained by iNcontroL, Alex Garfield, and Jason Lake.
On May 02 2012 02:03 iNcontroL wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:55 Torte de Lini wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:54 noidontthinkso wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
well, when its enough then its enough
and for me, the absolute limit is reached
so u aim for the head, since quantic does not seem to care about destiny at all
did the orb story hurted esports sponsoring? no.
Yes, you just don't see it. What doesn't come forward or public doesn't mean it didn't have the intention to do so before.
I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.
EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.
I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.
Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.
I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.
You're pretty naive. Now I'm not really picking sides in this debate, but the hypocrisy from these guys on this subject is ridiculous.
They're getting sponsored by these companies!!!
These guys are saying that because anything they do, they get the ability to apologize, explain it away, or deal with their managers instead of the real world. Their livelihood directly depends on this crap. But does it actually effect esports?? Of course not. Orb getting removed from casting the MC doesn't mean anything. And the fact is esports is moving so fast that sponsors aren't going to leave the scene, they're going to transfer their loyalty from one team/person to another.
By bringing this to sponsors you're causing these people additional headaches, you're not hurting esports.
Think for yourself man, don't listen to these talking heads constantly. They're great if you need to brush up on your PvZ but in real life they're out for themselves, just like everyone else.
Sponsors' first decision is not one team over another (or one player over another), it's whether they want to spend marketing dollars on esports or sports or tv marketing. There's nothing misleading about anything they said.
Trust me on this. I was one of the first sc2 competition sponsors, and my company exited the scene for good reasons (it aint worth the effort).
It's worth the effort for plenty of companies, and my point is that the reward you're getting is growing, not shrinking.
I might not know esports, but I sure as hell know business, and for companies like Razer, Steelseries, Soundblaster? This is their target market. They're not going anywhere. Even for the Monster's and the Red Bulls of the world, they're getting an awfully nice demographic if they're willing to pay a premium for it.
Anyone with a valid opinion that is worth trusting on this issue like JLake or Ottersareneat have huge conflicts of interest.
Even for the endemic sponsors, they have a choice between various genres. If League of Legends fans are easier to appease and less likely to schedule monthly witchhunt (and has three times the stream viewership), why would they want to stick around? This is not even considering the fact that the lifestyle and other mainstream sponsors are just barely starting to dip their toes in.
The ROI from our scene has strong potential, but vague and lacks proper metrics. All the sponsors right now, including the endemics are just testing waters with their money. The test can lead to bigger money down the line, but it can also led them to exit the market all together.
If you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that ONE RACE is SUPERIOR to another - you are an IGNORANT FUCKING LUNATIC.
THE ONLY reason that these words were EVER offensive was the CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE USED.
Its fucking 2012 - the most fucking offensive term these days in the US is probably "sandnigger" because racist fucking lunatics actually think that people of Middle-Eastern/Arabic descent are inferior. And that's just pure, dumb, stupid, ignorance. And honestly it stems from the fact that these idiots are pants-shitting xenophobics. They are SO AFRAID of a group of people that they resort to dehumanizing them.
That makes you a racist. It also makes you a fucking dumbass.
Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that Destiny is like "Oh God, not another Korean! I hate these guys, they all look alike and they've got no Seoul cause they Seould it to get good at SC!"?
EPT
