On May 02 2012 04:29 seansye wrote: If Orb is going to be scrutinized and punished for his actions then Destiny should be condemned as well.
No, this is wrong stop thinking like this
2 wrongs don't make a right
This shit isn't productive for the community it needs to be bit in the ass and stopped right now, this behaviour of 'I HATE WHAT XYZ IS DOING IM GOING TO EMAIL THE SPONSORS' needs to stop and be killed off.
Although the funny thing is probably that these people think they're saving e-sports when they're really doing the opposite.
I don't see slurs themselves as unprofessional, that's mostly a cultural thing. It's his trademark and makes money out of raging (that's quite professional). It's only about not crossing the line. As long as he doesn't seriously harrass people or threaten people it's just fine for me.
On May 02 2012 04:21 besteady wrote: Why is it always white people that feel the need to defend the use of ratial slurs? Its almost like they are unable to relate to racism these words perpetuate.
E: also why are you guys so lenient with the moderation? its times like these I miss SA.
Why do you feel the need to try to bring racism into this to fuel a flame?
On May 02 2012 04:21 besteady wrote: Why is it always white people that feel the need to defend the use of ratial slurs? Its almost like they are unable to relate to racism these words perpetuate.
E: also why are you guys so lenient with the moderation? its times like these I miss SA.
Why do you feel the need to try to bring racism into this to fuel a flame? I highly doubt you can see through the computer screen and see the people talking. Your ignorant comments don't help the people who are trying to have legitimate conversations and trying to stop people from emailing sponsors and causing real damage to eSports.
Uh the entire thread was made because Destiny called somebody a gook, I don't think it's this guy who's bringing racism into it. Just a thought.
On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Nobody say it should be condoned. Majority of the ones against this witchhunt is against it because the proponents are explicitly targetting sponsors. These type of vigilante justice will result in significant collateral damage to the scene, as explained by iNcontroL, Alex Garfield, and Jason Lake.
On May 02 2012 02:03 iNcontroL wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:55 Torte de Lini wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:54 noidontthinkso wrote:
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
well, when its enough then its enough
and for me, the absolute limit is reached
so u aim for the head, since quantic does not seem to care about destiny at all
did the orb story hurted esports sponsoring? no.
Yes, you just don't see it. What doesn't come forward or public doesn't mean it didn't have the intention to do so before.
I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.
EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.
I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.
Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.
I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.
starting 3:30
You're pretty naive. Now I'm not really picking sides in this debate, but the hypocrisy from these guys on this subject is ridiculous.
They're getting sponsored by these companies!!!
These guys are saying that because anything they do, they get the ability to apologize, explain it away, or deal with their managers instead of the real world. Their livelihood directly depends on this crap. But does it actually effect esports?? Of course not. Orb getting removed from casting the MC doesn't mean anything. And the fact is esports is moving so fast that sponsors aren't going to leave the scene, they're going to transfer their loyalty from one team/person to another.
By bringing this to sponsors you're causing these people additional headaches, you're not hurting esports.
Think for yourself man, don't listen to these talking heads constantly. They're great if you need to brush up on your PvZ but in real life they're out for themselves, just like everyone else.
Sponsors' first decision is not one team over another (or one player over another), it's whether they want to spend marketing dollars on esports or sports or tv marketing. There's nothing misleading about anything they said.
Trust me on this. I was one of the first sc2 competition sponsors, and my company exited the scene for good reasons (it aint worth the effort).
DETROIT -- Delmon Young was suspended by Major League Baseball on Monday for seven days without pay following his arrest on a hate crime harassment charge last week in New York.
The commissioner's office said the suspension is retroactive to Friday, when Young was arrested after a late-night tussle at his hotel during which police say he yelled anti-Semitic epithets.
"Those associated with our game should meet the responsibilities and standards that stem from our game's stature as a social institution," commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement. "An incident like this cannot and will not be tolerated. I understand that Mr. Young is regretful, and it is my expectation that he will learn from this unfortunate episode."
The statement from the commissioner's office also said that Young would be required to participate in a treatment program.
Young is eligible for reinstatement from the restricted list May 4.
The suspension will cost Young approximately $257,240 of his $6,725,000 salary.
Speaking before the Tigers game against the Kansas City Royals was postponed by rain, Detroit general manager Dave Dombrowski said Young will not appeal the ruling and that he will not face additional discipline by the team when he comes off the restricted list Friday.
"Under the (collective bargaining agreement), there's no dual discipline," he said. "He'll be activated and ready to play on Friday. If he's not in the lineup, that will be the manager's decision. He's been working out over the weekend, and took batting practice today, so he'll be physically ready on Friday."Around 2:30 a.m. Friday, Young was standing outside the team hotel in New York. Nearby, a group of about four Chicago tourists staying at the hotel were approached by a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David around his neck, according to police.
Afterward, as the group walked up to the hotel doors, Young started yelling anti-Semitic epithets, police said.
It was not clear whom Young was yelling at, but he got into a scuffle with the Chicago group, and a 32-year-old man was tackled and sustained scratches to his elbows, according to police and the criminal complaint.
Both Young and the group went inside the hotel, and at some point, police were called, and Young was arrested, police said. Young was first taken to a hospital because he was believed to be intoxicated, police said.
Young apologized to his teammates and fans in a statement before being arraigned hours after his arrest.
Dombrowski did not know any of the details of the treatment program. It is not known if Young would undergo sensitivity training, treatment for alcohol and anger issues or some combination.
"We have not been told those details, and we might never know all of them," he said. "When Miguel (Cabrera) was in a similar program last spring, I never saw the entire treatment program. The team is just told what they need to know to facilitate the player's work in the program."
Young is hitting .242 in 18 games, batting fifth in the order behind Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder. He has one homer and five RBIs.
Holy crap! I missed the part where Destiny tracked his opponent down and attempted to fight him while incessantly calling him racial slurs! That totally is grounds for recourse! Post pics pl0x
On May 02 2012 03:52 babylon wrote: I have no issue with bringing social justice issues to the table; what I'm annoyed about is people trying to pretend they actually care about social justice when all they want to do is create more drama and subject yet another community figure to a witchhunt. I highly doubt more than 10% of the people complaining in this thread about Destiny's language actually do anything outside of lambasting people on the internet to promote social justice when confronted with problems in the real world.
If you're gonna try to get Destiny fired, sure, go right ahead, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're making a "big change," especially considering the usual gaming population. Until your concern for these issues steps outside of "I'm going to make a post on the internet about it and then email the sponsors, let me feel good about myself for stamping out the use of racist slurs on a stream watched by a miniscule portion of the population, many of whom use it themselves and/or have encountered it before and have no issues with hearing it or using it in every day life and who couldn't care less if Destiny loses his team so long as he continues to stream," then ... well, I hope you see where I'm going here. What will emailing the sponsors do? Well, in one scenario, a major SC2 team loses its sponsorship and ... people still continue to use whatever words they want. In another, Destiny gets kicked and people still continue to use whatever words they want. Yet in another, nothing happens and people still continue to use whatever words they want.
I see a lot of people complaining that the people raising an outcry don't 'really' have the right motivations. They are merely swept up by outrage or love drama, and do not really care enough about what is wrong with racist language.
While this might be true (but really...what evidence do we have for claims about the motivations of these posters?) it does not change the fact that they are at least taking the right ACTION. That is, they may be doing the right thing, with the wrong motivation. This is a step in the direction of being a good person. As Aristotle argues, first we imitate good people and take good actions (maybe because we are forced!), and this will eventually lead to a good character.
Sure, maybe people are just emailing Quantic and/or sponsors out of momentary passion. But I am alright with this. It is a step in the right direction.
My problem is that it doesn't even send a message about what is "right" or what is "wrong," just that the community has the power to jerk around progamers whenever it decides it's tired of them. I won't lie; I hate falsity, but that's not even the root of my problem with the responses in this thread. Getting swept up in the passion and hanging a community member not because you care for the issues you're even talking about but because you just want to see drama unfold is, yes, part of the issue, because it gives people the feeling that they're doing something, and then they use that as an excuse to not act when they see it happening right in front of their very eyes in the real world. "I object to the use of racist slurs on the internet! Surely that's enough?" is basically the internal reasoning that goes on, because most people are much too polite/afraid to tell people straight to their face that they're offended (if they are); or they'll just shy away and be massive hypocrites because they don't really care, but just like to pretend they do, and it's way easier to pretend online than in person, and hey, brownie points, I'm a good person if I act like I'm super-offended enough to get someone fired over this!
How do we address social justice? By first instilling actual consideration and care for the problems at hand, instead of encouraging people to fake consideration and care. Otherwise, the "right action" (as you consider it) and the "change" that action inspires is short-lived and impermanent, because it is not sincere, and there is no actual change taking place beneath the surface. All we have is a facade that will be lost anyways by the time the next generation rolls around.
There are appropriate ways to go about addressing social justice; trying to dismantle someone's career and livelihood on the internet is not it and does not do anything but fuel the flame.
I take your point and agree with much of what you say. However, I think - as I said earlier by means of referencing Aristotle's ethical system - that one way to instill "actual consideration and care for the problems at hand" is for people to 'go through the motions' multiple times. If people without mature moral judgment take lots of right actions, this helps them develop good moral character.
I'm having difficulty understanding what this thread is trying to accomplish. It seems to me that the OP made this thread simply to vent his anger. This fact alone in no way deserves the drama that has come with it. I suddenly read about complaining to sponsors, social injustice and #killingesports.
I don't see why Destiny's repetitive vocabulary should garner this much attention and I would really recommend just about everybody who posted in this thread to take a step back and think about the discussion they've been having in it's entirity. Are we really going to heckle Razer into possibly forcing Quantic Gaming to take action because Destiny called his opponent a gook after losing to an all-in? Would you burn down an entire village because you don't like one of it's inhabitants?
Destiny isn't a Community Pillar, he doesn't propegate eSPORTS and he never ever claimed to do so. What he does, is make money through add revenue and by providing lessons and the like. That he will tell everybody who asks. What reason do we haver to picture him as far more important than he really is? What good will actually come of this? When our niche one day starts to exponentially grow and gain the attention of a bigger crowd, it isn't a swearing kid that will be linked to our community, it will be our brash attitude towards anything that we don't believe to be proper. It will be our unintelligent attempts to solve towards any of those so called problems. People will see a hostile attitude coming from our community because it's the negative things that we do that will be remembered the most.
If people have a problem with Destiny, they should simply look at what they can do to ease their own unease. Click on that language filter, if you are offended by such language, why would you allow yourself to be exposed to it so overtly? Don't watch his stream, he doesn't post much outside threads about him so your interaction with him will be almost non-existent. To some degree it's understandable that you are concerned about the reputation of Quantic Gaming, but ask yourselves this: "Will my actions actually have a positive effect on the situation at hand?".
I find this thread to lack any substantial content and the actions people on both sides of this weird arguement to sometimes be shocking and baffling. The discussion is leading nowhere but to it's own start. Someone tell me just what exactly is the purpose of this thread now.
On May 02 2012 04:31 Argolis wrote: If you don't like it, don't watch it....? Why would you contact a sponsor?
"if you dont like it, dont watch it" destiny is featured. He is on the front page of TL when he is streaming. newcomers may not want to see such words of hate and discrimination, but they will click a user with many viewers. they may click destiny's. I think that since some people dont want to be a part of this or see this kind of stuff, destiny should be removed from featured streaming. graphic language is not the same as prejudice slurs.
DETROIT -- Delmon Young was suspended by Major League Baseball on Monday for seven days without pay following his arrest on a hate crime harassment charge last week in New York.
The commissioner's office said the suspension is retroactive to Friday, when Young was arrested after a late-night tussle at his hotel during which police say he yelled anti-Semitic epithets.
"Those associated with our game should meet the responsibilities and standards that stem from our game's stature as a social institution," commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement. "An incident like this cannot and will not be tolerated. I understand that Mr. Young is regretful, and it is my expectation that he will learn from this unfortunate episode."
The statement from the commissioner's office also said that Young would be required to participate in a treatment program.
Young is eligible for reinstatement from the restricted list May 4.
The suspension will cost Young approximately $257,240 of his $6,725,000 salary.
Speaking before the Tigers game against the Kansas City Royals was postponed by rain, Detroit general manager Dave Dombrowski said Young will not appeal the ruling and that he will not face additional discipline by the team when he comes off the restricted list Friday.
"Under the (collective bargaining agreement), there's no dual discipline," he said. "He'll be activated and ready to play on Friday. If he's not in the lineup, that will be the manager's decision. He's been working out over the weekend, and took batting practice today, so he'll be physically ready on Friday."Around 2:30 a.m. Friday, Young was standing outside the team hotel in New York. Nearby, a group of about four Chicago tourists staying at the hotel were approached by a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David around his neck, according to police.
Afterward, as the group walked up to the hotel doors, Young started yelling anti-Semitic epithets, police said.
It was not clear whom Young was yelling at, but he got into a scuffle with the Chicago group, and a 32-year-old man was tackled and sustained scratches to his elbows, according to police and the criminal complaint.
Both Young and the group went inside the hotel, and at some point, police were called, and Young was arrested, police said. Young was first taken to a hospital because he was believed to be intoxicated, police said.
Young apologized to his teammates and fans in a statement before being arraigned hours after his arrest.
Dombrowski did not know any of the details of the treatment program. It is not known if Young would undergo sensitivity training, treatment for alcohol and anger issues or some combination.
"We have not been told those details, and we might never know all of them," he said. "When Miguel (Cabrera) was in a similar program last spring, I never saw the entire treatment program. The team is just told what they need to know to facilitate the player's work in the program."
Young is hitting .242 in 18 games, batting fifth in the order behind Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder. He has one homer and five RBIs.
Holy crap! I missed the part where Destiny tracked his opponent down and attempted to fight him while incessantly calling him racial slurs! That totally is grounds for recourse! Post pics pl0x
And lets not forget the part where he was actually arrested and formally charged for a hate crime
On May 02 2012 04:31 Argolis wrote: If you don't like it, don't watch it....? Why would you contact a sponsor?
"if you dont like it, dont watch it" destiny is featured. He is on the front page of TL when he is streaming. newcomers may not want to see such words of hate and discrimination, but they will click a user with many viewers. they may click destiny's. I think that since some people dont want to be a part of this or see this kind of stuff, destiny should be removed from featured streaming. graphic language is not the same as prejudice slurs.
He has a parental advisory notification on his stream, no?
DETROIT -- Delmon Young was suspended by Major League Baseball on Monday for seven days without pay following his arrest on a hate crime harassment charge last week in New York.
The commissioner's office said the suspension is retroactive to Friday, when Young was arrested after a late-night tussle at his hotel during which police say he yelled anti-Semitic epithets.
"Those associated with our game should meet the responsibilities and standards that stem from our game's stature as a social institution," commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement. "An incident like this cannot and will not be tolerated. I understand that Mr. Young is regretful, and it is my expectation that he will learn from this unfortunate episode."
The statement from the commissioner's office also said that Young would be required to participate in a treatment program.
Young is eligible for reinstatement from the restricted list May 4.
The suspension will cost Young approximately $257,240 of his $6,725,000 salary.
Speaking before the Tigers game against the Kansas City Royals was postponed by rain, Detroit general manager Dave Dombrowski said Young will not appeal the ruling and that he will not face additional discipline by the team when he comes off the restricted list Friday.
"Under the (collective bargaining agreement), there's no dual discipline," he said. "He'll be activated and ready to play on Friday. If he's not in the lineup, that will be the manager's decision. He's been working out over the weekend, and took batting practice today, so he'll be physically ready on Friday."Around 2:30 a.m. Friday, Young was standing outside the team hotel in New York. Nearby, a group of about four Chicago tourists staying at the hotel were approached by a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David around his neck, according to police.
Afterward, as the group walked up to the hotel doors, Young started yelling anti-Semitic epithets, police said.
It was not clear whom Young was yelling at, but he got into a scuffle with the Chicago group, and a 32-year-old man was tackled and sustained scratches to his elbows, according to police and the criminal complaint.
Both Young and the group went inside the hotel, and at some point, police were called, and Young was arrested, police said. Young was first taken to a hospital because he was believed to be intoxicated, police said.
Young apologized to his teammates and fans in a statement before being arraigned hours after his arrest.
Dombrowski did not know any of the details of the treatment program. It is not known if Young would undergo sensitivity training, treatment for alcohol and anger issues or some combination.
"We have not been told those details, and we might never know all of them," he said. "When Miguel (Cabrera) was in a similar program last spring, I never saw the entire treatment program. The team is just told what they need to know to facilitate the player's work in the program."
Young is hitting .242 in 18 games, batting fifth in the order behind Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder. He has one homer and five RBIs.
Holy crap! I missed the part where Destiny tracked his opponent down and attempted to fight him while incessantly calling him racial slurs! That totally is grounds for recourse! Post pics pl0x
And lets not forget the part where he was actually arrested and formally charged for a hate crime
Any sort of racism is wrong. It's this sort of verbal racist assault that leads to bigger things down the line where kids are brainwashed to think it's ok and then grow up to be someone like George Zimmerman who shoots down others like Trayvon Martin.
On May 02 2012 04:29 seansye wrote: If Orb is going to be scrutinized and punished for his actions then Destiny should be condemned as well.
No, this is wrong stop thinking like this
2 wrongs don't make a right
This shit isn't productive for the community it needs to be bit in the ass and stopped right now, this behaviour of 'I HATE WHAT XYZ IS DOING IM GOING TO EMAIL THE SPONSORS' needs to stop and be killed off.
Although the funny thing is probably that these people think they're saving e-sports when they're really doing the opposite.
I think it's a fair point to raise the differences in the two cases to at least showcase the dangers of having these kind of decisions to be in the hands of the fanbase. Such inconsistencies are a natural consequence of fandom.
I didn't agree with the Orb case, neither do I think Destiny should be censured for this. However either way it should be a decision made on its own merits by the organisations in question, and not based upon how outraged TL's/reddits keyboard warriors get.
On May 02 2012 04:35 striderxxx wrote: Any sort of racism is wrong. It's this sort of verbal racist assault that leads to bigger things down the line where kids are brainwashed to think it's ok and then grow up to be someone like George Zimmerman who shoots down others like Trayvon Martin.
You know, I'm actually surprised it took 80 pages to get a Trayvon Martin post in this thread. haha
On May 02 2012 04:35 striderxxx wrote: Any sort of racism is wrong. It's this sort of verbal racist assault that leads to bigger things down the line where kids are brainwashed to think it's ok and then grow up to be someone like George Zimmerman who shoots down others like Trayvon Martin.
On May 02 2012 04:35 striderxxx wrote: Any sort of racism is wrong. It's this sort of verbal racist assault that leads to bigger things down the line where kids are brainwashed to think it's ok and then grow up to be someone like George Zimmerman who shoots down others like Trayvon Martin.
You've used a bad example to try to convey a misguided point
EPT
