On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Destiny said he doesn't care, and has been pretty consistent with his justifications of the kind of language that he chooses to employ. I'd rather see that than some faux apology from the guy.
I don't go around calling people 'white knights' for questioning somebody's behaviour, but in this (and the Orb) incident a lot of people seem to be up in arms for the wrong reasons, i.e to cause drama/be part of something in the community.
Anyhow it just comes back to what constitutes offensive language, and it differs between people, differs based on intent, on context etc. For instance I quite frequently use the word faggot in a non-homophobic manner, because I like the word and the way it sounds when I'm ranting away. I once got taken to task for this in the presence of a gay friend by somebody else claiming it was offensive to gays, whereas he backed me because he saw the context was NOT homophobic. On the other hand I hate most racial epithets, especially nigger, their ugliness as words just doesn't sit well with me. On another hand though, language is pretty fluid and subject to interpretation.
In this particular instance, Destiny may be taken a bit more to task, as he saw the Korean characters, indicating somebody of that ethnicity and THEN used a pejorative term. His standard defence that he uses racist language in a non-racist way doesn't seem to be applicable here, in that the word gook was used in response to an indication that the player was Asian.
Destiny loses points for me on that one, and this is coming from somebody who usually feels he's a pretty intelligent and articulate guy when he's on SoTG and the likes. Given that he earns money from his stream, the best response is to simply not watch it. If you feel more strongly though, by all means email his team or whatever but I don't see it materially affecting him all that much.
DETROIT -- Delmon Young was suspended by Major League Baseball on Monday for seven days without pay following his arrest on a hate crime harassment charge last week in New York.
The commissioner's office said the suspension is retroactive to Friday, when Young was arrested after a late-night tussle at his hotel during which police say he yelled anti-Semitic epithets.
"Those associated with our game should meet the responsibilities and standards that stem from our game's stature as a social institution," commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement. "An incident like this cannot and will not be tolerated. I understand that Mr. Young is regretful, and it is my expectation that he will learn from this unfortunate episode."
The statement from the commissioner's office also said that Young would be required to participate in a treatment program.
Young is eligible for reinstatement from the restricted list May 4.
The suspension will cost Young approximately $257,240 of his $6,725,000 salary.
Speaking before the Tigers game against the Kansas City Royals was postponed by rain, Detroit general manager Dave Dombrowski said Young will not appeal the ruling and that he will not face additional discipline by the team when he comes off the restricted list Friday.
"Under the (collective bargaining agreement), there's no dual discipline," he said. "He'll be activated and ready to play on Friday. If he's not in the lineup, that will be the manager's decision. He's been working out over the weekend, and took batting practice today, so he'll be physically ready on Friday."Around 2:30 a.m. Friday, Young was standing outside the team hotel in New York. Nearby, a group of about four Chicago tourists staying at the hotel were approached by a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David around his neck, according to police.
Afterward, as the group walked up to the hotel doors, Young started yelling anti-Semitic epithets, police said.
It was not clear whom Young was yelling at, but he got into a scuffle with the Chicago group, and a 32-year-old man was tackled and sustained scratches to his elbows, according to police and the criminal complaint.
Both Young and the group went inside the hotel, and at some point, police were called, and Young was arrested, police said. Young was first taken to a hospital because he was believed to be intoxicated, police said.
Young apologized to his teammates and fans in a statement before being arraigned hours after his arrest.
Dombrowski did not know any of the details of the treatment program. It is not known if Young would undergo sensitivity training, treatment for alcohol and anger issues or some combination.
"We have not been told those details, and we might never know all of them," he said. "When Miguel (Cabrera) was in a similar program last spring, I never saw the entire treatment program. The team is just told what they need to know to facilitate the player's work in the program."
Young is hitting .242 in 18 games, batting fifth in the order behind Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder. He has one homer and five RBIs.
There is a bit of a difference between the two situations...this guy actually got into a physical engagment and tackled someone. Destiny called someone a name. People are also calling for Destiny to be removed from the team/be banned from streaming on TL and such, while this guy, even though he did something more severe just isn't able to play for a week.
On May 02 2012 03:57 Arghmyliver wrote: There is a popular adage -
Stick and stones may break my bones, But words can never hurt me.
The moral being - shit can only bring you down if you let it.
If you WANT it to mean something horrible, then it always will. And that's a fact.
If I called you Hot Dog and you took it as an offensive term for males, you know? You can let this shit get to you, or you can think to yourself "Gee I made him angry, SUCCESS!"
Except the words we're talking about already do mean something terrible. You don't have to take them that way, the words are being used because they're horrible slurs for a certain group of people. You can swear up and down that you don't mean it in that way, but you chose that word for a reason.
Words like nigger and faggot didn't always carry power as vehicles of racism. But I think they will for a long time in the future so long as people refuse to accept that they are used in other senses.
I don't understand why people are bothered so much, if people tossed out all the racial slurs targeted at my race in a game, I would just chuckle and move on to the next game, why can't all these posters realize they are just words lol, and should stop being offended for other people. Destiny has built his fanbase around his ragey antics and idgaf attitude, so why is it suddenly a big issue, is everyone really so thin-skinned?
It's great that you have thick skin, but not everybody does. And they shouldn't be expected to just deal with it when this shouldn't be acceptable in the first place.
so we should cater to thin skinned people instead?
I have to agree though if someone over the internet insulted my race, sexuality or gender I'm not going to break down into tears nor am I going to let a tear out, why? Because it's the fucking internet. People hide behind the internet because it's easy as a result you become desensitised to what you're doing because the consequences are less.
If you want to do it face to face in person, then we have a problem
On May 02 2012 04:14 Phobbers wrote: Holy shit people. First thing I do today is herrr derr get on TL and this is the first thread I see. After that I go on over to Reddit to see if there is another thread, there isn't. Wasn't TL all up in arms about how Reddit is a massive shit hole for going on these massive witch hunts (see orb)? This is getting out of hand, and it seems to me that people only go out of their way to do these kinds of things because they don't like the person, or something idiotic like that.
Also it's Destiny, he defended his use of certain words on a sotg ages ago. You shouldn't be surprised.
Finally, there was a post earlier in this thread by babylon, and I feel it's the best one in here. And I hope more people manage to see it. The reasoning behind it? Because people want drama, and that's it. It's sickening to see what some of you are posting, just to fuel the hate and drama train. If anything, a lot of you should take a look at the things you've posted here and feel embarrassed.
On May 02 2012 03:52 babylon wrote: I have no issue with bringing social justice issues to the table; what I'm annoyed about is people trying to pretend they actually care about social justice when all they want to do is create more drama and subject yet another community figure to a witchhunt. I highly doubt more than 10% of the people complaining in this thread about Destiny's language actually do anything outside of lambasting people on the internet to promote social justice when confronted with problems in the real world.
If you're gonna try to get Destiny fired, sure, go right ahead, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're making a "big change," especially considering the usual gaming population. Until your concern for these issues steps outside of "I'm going to make a post on the internet about it and then email the sponsors, let me feel good about myself for stamping out the use of racist slurs on a stream watched by a miniscule portion of the population, many of whom use it themselves and/or have encountered it before and have no issues with hearing it or using it in every day life and who couldn't care less if Destiny loses his team so long as he continues to stream," then ... well, I hope you see where I'm going here. What will emailing the sponsors do? Well, in one scenario, a major SC2 team loses its sponsorship and ... people still continue to use whatever words they want. In another, Destiny gets kicked and people still continue to use whatever words they want. Yet in another, nothing happens and people still continue to use whatever words they want.
Since multiple people have quoted this post, I just want to reissue a word of warning. First, we do not really know the motivations of people who are upset with Destiny's behavior. We cannot be sure that all of their motivation to email Quantic and/or sponsors is from a desire for drama.
And we should not discount the thread just because some people might have the wrong motivations. We can't see into the minds of others. All that we can do is address their words and arguments. Ultimately, if they are making the right choice by emailing Quantic and/or sponsors, then this is, at least, a step in the right direction (regardless of their motivation).
words are words, nobody gives a fuck, should i bring your mommy to pat your back and tell you that "he's just jealous"? You pissed him off by being an all-in'er, so he lashed out at you.
I like how people say idra isn't comparable, considering he's told people to go die and stuff like that, and that such a statement is pretty fine since we know it's just hot air uttered in frustration/annoyance, but a racial slur that is used in precisely the same way is going to bring you the complete army of the internet at your doorstep, pitchforks and all.
DETROIT -- Delmon Young was suspended by Major League Baseball on Monday for seven days without pay following his arrest on a hate crime harassment charge last week in New York.
The commissioner's office said the suspension is retroactive to Friday, when Young was arrested after a late-night tussle at his hotel during which police say he yelled anti-Semitic epithets.
"Those associated with our game should meet the responsibilities and standards that stem from our game's stature as a social institution," commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement. "An incident like this cannot and will not be tolerated. I understand that Mr. Young is regretful, and it is my expectation that he will learn from this unfortunate episode."
The statement from the commissioner's office also said that Young would be required to participate in a treatment program.
Young is eligible for reinstatement from the restricted list May 4.
The suspension will cost Young approximately $257,240 of his $6,725,000 salary.
Speaking before the Tigers game against the Kansas City Royals was postponed by rain, Detroit general manager Dave Dombrowski said Young will not appeal the ruling and that he will not face additional discipline by the team when he comes off the restricted list Friday.
"Under the (collective bargaining agreement), there's no dual discipline," he said. "He'll be activated and ready to play on Friday. If he's not in the lineup, that will be the manager's decision. He's been working out over the weekend, and took batting practice today, so he'll be physically ready on Friday."Around 2:30 a.m. Friday, Young was standing outside the team hotel in New York. Nearby, a group of about four Chicago tourists staying at the hotel were approached by a panhandler wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David around his neck, according to police.
Afterward, as the group walked up to the hotel doors, Young started yelling anti-Semitic epithets, police said.
It was not clear whom Young was yelling at, but he got into a scuffle with the Chicago group, and a 32-year-old man was tackled and sustained scratches to his elbows, according to police and the criminal complaint.
Both Young and the group went inside the hotel, and at some point, police were called, and Young was arrested, police said. Young was first taken to a hospital because he was believed to be intoxicated, police said.
Young apologized to his teammates and fans in a statement before being arraigned hours after his arrest.
Dombrowski did not know any of the details of the treatment program. It is not known if Young would undergo sensitivity training, treatment for alcohol and anger issues or some combination.
"We have not been told those details, and we might never know all of them," he said. "When Miguel (Cabrera) was in a similar program last spring, I never saw the entire treatment program. The team is just told what they need to know to facilitate the player's work in the program."
Young is hitting .242 in 18 games, batting fifth in the order behind Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder. He has one homer and five RBIs.
You mean doing nothing? Oh my, how it must hurt to lose 250,000 out of your nearly $7,000,000 salary. This is how the real companies handle things, little pats on the back and a nice show in attempt to let us moral folk think that they remotely give a shit. But they don't. Anyone with a lot of money doesn't for the most part. They come out, give their fake little apology about being really sorry and what they've "learned from this experience" and yet the reality is that all they learn is to not be like that in public. Not to not be like that, just that they can't do it in public. Well except that they can, because the worst that'll happen is nothing and they'll be on their way again. It must be cool to be able to rewarded for bad behavior, must be nice.
On May 02 2012 04:06 Castor385 wrote: Quite the hipocracy to be offended by a stream that warns you up front for explicit language.
If you don't like it, confront the person or stop watching.
User was warned for this post
What about being offended because you played AGAINST Destiny and were on the receiving end of that shit?
Don't waste his time doing some all-in that takes no skill while he's playing sc2 for a living. What's not been brought up so far is that probably 70% of the people he plays are stream sniping him as well. Most people would get angry if that's all they face when trying to actually play this game seriously.
Oh boy, SC2 players have it so tough, who can blame Destiny for resorting to racism now?
Once again, Doctors Without Borders. It's all I'm gonna say to people who actually think he's racist. How many children in Africa have you helped so far? But that doesn't count at all, neither does supporting homosexual marriage. He calls people faggots, so he must be homophobic. What he actually does is something completely else. But hey, you just dislike the guy and want him out of the community. It's perfectly fine unless you do something stupid like contacting the sponsors.
Not like the OP didn't offensive GG, and in Korean at that, which is utterly retarded.
Concerning the topic itself of racism, I'm completely turned off that the community wants to write sponsors. Why should anything even be done about this? Don't like his behavior? Block him and don't watch his stream. Get over it. It's not affecting your life otherwise. If a team wants him, and you think that's bad, then don't like his team. Dislike Quantic. But because you dislike Quantic you're going to try to fuck with their sponsors? REALLY?
On May 02 2012 04:08 Derrida wrote: It's incredible this is still being labeled as a witch hunt of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to ruin an "established figure" of Starcraft II scene.
Those of us who think this kind of behavior should not be tolerated are not arguing with people who are okay with it. Most of the people who are offended would turn to Destiny for an explanation. And Destiny said he doesn't give a fuck. So, if people are still offended and not persuaded by the offenders' justification/response/apology, it is within their power to pursue this as they wish.
However, most of the people who are okay with this behavior are just arguing through ad hominems, or trying to prove that being offended by this behavior is a sign of no-lifers. If you are okay with it, how about trying to understand that some people genuinely have a problem with this kind of language in general, or this kind of language in starcraft II as an e-sports in particular. You don't really help the situation by saying "ur trying to fuck destiny in the ass."
Nobody say it should be condoned. Majority of the ones against this witchhunt is against it because the proponents are explicitly targetting sponsors. These type of vigilante justice will result in significant collateral damage to the scene, as explained by iNcontroL, Alex Garfield, and Jason Lake.
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
well, when its enough then its enough
and for me, the absolute limit is reached
so u aim for the head, since quantic does not seem to care about destiny at all
did the orb story hurted esports sponsoring? no.
Yes, you just don't see it. What doesn't come forward or public doesn't mean it didn't have the intention to do so before.
I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.
EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.
I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.
Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.
I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.
On May 02 2012 04:20 Freye wrote: words are words, nobody gives a fuck, should i bring your mommy to pat your back and tell you that "he's just jealous"? You pissed him off by being an all-in'er, so he lashed out at you.
I like how people say idra isn't comparable, considering he's told people to go die and stuff like that, and that such a statement is pretty fine since we know it's just hot air uttered in frustration/annoyance, but a racial slur that is used in precisely the same way is going to bring you the complete army of the internet at your doorstep, pitchforks and all.
Stop being a pussy and welcome to the internet.
If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?
On May 02 2012 04:06 Castor385 wrote: Quite the hipocracy to be offended by a stream that warns you up front for explicit language.
If you don't like it, confront the person or stop watching.
User was warned for this post
What about being offended because you played AGAINST Destiny and were on the receiving end of that shit?
Don't waste his time doing some all-in that takes no skill while he's playing sc2 for a living. What's not been brought up so far is that probably 70% of the people he plays are stream sniping him as well. Most people would get angry if that's all they face when trying to actually play this game seriously.
YEah, but when I get angry I don't call people gooks, niggers, or any other racist term.
Also Destiny is doing so with the Quantic tag next to his name. With that comes the ramifications that every single sponsor of Quantic is supporting racist slurs.
Why is it always white people that feel the need to defend the use of ratial slurs? Its almost like they are unable to relate to racism these words perpetuate.
E: also why are you guys so lenient with the moderation? its times like these I miss SA.
On May 02 2012 03:57 Arghmyliver wrote: There is a popular adage -
Stick and stones may break my bones, But words can never hurt me.
The moral being - shit can only bring you down if you let it.
If you WANT it to mean something horrible, then it always will. And that's a fact.
If I called you Hot Dog and you took it as an offensive term for males, you know? You can let this shit get to you, or you can think to yourself "Gee I made him angry, SUCCESS!"
Except the words we're talking about already do mean something terrible. You don't have to take them that way, the words are being used because they're horrible slurs for a certain group of people. You can swear up and down that you don't mean it in that way, but you chose that word for a reason.
Words like nigger and faggot didn't always carry power as vehicles of racism. But I think they will for a long time in the future so long as people refuse to accept that they are used in other senses.
I don't understand why people are bothered so much, if people tossed out all the racial slurs targeted at my race in a game, I would just chuckle and move on to the next game, why can't all these posters realize they are just words lol, and should stop being offended for other people. Destiny has built his fanbase around his ragey antics and idgaf attitude, so why is it suddenly a big issue, is everyone really so thin-skinned?
It's great that you have thick skin, but not everybody does. And they shouldn't be expected to just deal with it when this shouldn't be acceptable in the first place.
People hide behind the internet because it's easy as a result you become desensitised to what you're doing because the consequences are less.
Pretty much. There's a word for people like this, unfortunately I got warned for using it earlier so I'll hold my tongue :o
On May 02 2012 04:06 Castor385 wrote: Quite the hipocracy to be offended by a stream that warns you up front for explicit language.
If you don't like it, confront the person or stop watching.
User was warned for this post
What about being offended because you played AGAINST Destiny and were on the receiving end of that shit?
Don't waste his time doing some all-in that takes no skill while he's playing sc2 for a living. What's not been brought up so far is that probably 70% of the people he plays are stream sniping him as well. Most people would get angry if that's all they face when trying to actually play this game seriously.
LEAVE DESTINY ALONE
Jk. He can express his opinion to his stream, he could have tell them how shitty this terran was while he was ragequitting without any racial slur. The fact that he is an arrogant racist, which he is, you don't repeat yourself ten times a day if you're not believing it, is fine if and only if he does not insult directly in chat (like he does).
On May 02 2012 03:57 Arghmyliver wrote: There is a popular adage -
Stick and stones may break my bones, But words can never hurt me.
The moral being - shit can only bring you down if you let it.
If you WANT it to mean something horrible, then it always will. And that's a fact.
If I called you Hot Dog and you took it as an offensive term for males, you know? You can let this shit get to you, or you can think to yourself "Gee I made him angry, SUCCESS!"
Except the words we're talking about already do mean something terrible. You don't have to take them that way, the words are being used because they're horrible slurs for a certain group of people. You can swear up and down that you don't mean it in that way, but you chose that word for a reason.
Words like nigger and faggot didn't always carry power as vehicles of racism. But I think they will for a long time in the future so long as people refuse to accept that they are used in other senses.
I don't understand why people are bothered so much, if people tossed out all the racial slurs targeted at my race in a game, I would just chuckle and move on to the next game, why can't all these posters realize they are just words lol, and should stop being offended for other people. Destiny has built his fanbase around his ragey antics and idgaf attitude, so why is it suddenly a big issue, is everyone really so thin-skinned?
It's a big issue because he's a sponsored professional. You'd probably disregard any racial comments as trolling in ladder against randoms but against players representing one of the better teams you'd expect more of a professional mannerism. especially considering no provocation has been made on your part (if you don't count the 111 as provocative).
That's the sponsor's problem, not yours. If the sponsor hasn't told Destiny to cut the crap then there's no reason you should. Don't be a white knight, it's not your place to complain about this, if it really bugs you don't watch the stream, if it bugs you even more then write to Quantic.
This entire shitstorm though is ridiculous. One big huge hate-bandwagon. It's absurd.
On May 02 2012 04:21 besteady wrote: Why is it always white people that feel the need to defend the use of ratial slurs? Its almost like they are unable to relate to racism these words perpetuate.
I'm unsure how this page has managed to reach eighty pages with the majority of post being completely gross to even read. I think it's pretty straight forward that there should be some form of disciplinary action against Destiny, it's a well established practice that if you represent a team and sponsors you must act in a professional manner which includes not using racial slurs which only meaning can possibly be offensive.
This type of behavior from a player is not something that should be accepted with no actions taken when he is a part of a major sponsored team. There is a reason you don't see NBA stars calling people niggers and spics after they lose to the other team, because if they did so there would be major punishment. The same standard needs to be set for major SCII teams.
It makes the sponsors look bad, it makes the team look bad, it makes SCII e-sports in general look bad. If he wants to do this type of stuff on his own stream with no sponsors or teams helping support him then great, if he wants those big-name company's supporting him this kind of stuff should not be able to continue.
EPT
