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On June 13 2012 00:17 Aerisky wrote:
Hm, not to say okc is poorly coached or worse off in the coaching department, but I do remember Doc Rivers saying essentially that people don't give enough credit to Spo. I don't know whether he was just being nice/graceful in defeat, but he definitely pointed that out in the post-ECF interview. Spoelstra isn't too bad.
i think all informed basketball fans pretty much know this.
its easy for the ignorant uneducated masses to flame on spoelstra - especially considering the weight and pressure he has to carry everyday.
i think he's a great defensive coach and he draws up some good plays. whether or not those plays go through are really up to the players 
to put it simply: not just anyone can make it to the finals two consecutive years. EVEN with a team consisting of lebron, wade, bosh & co.
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i got a quick side question: how much influence do the assistant coaches have on a team?
I asked a question about the head coach earlier this year, and now i got one about them assistants.
do they play an important role in the development of a team and their performances on court as well?
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On June 13 2012 00:45 BlueRoyaL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:17 Aerisky wrote:
Hm, not to say okc is poorly coached or worse off in the coaching department, but I do remember Doc Rivers saying essentially that people don't give enough credit to Spo. I don't know whether he was just being nice/graceful in defeat, but he definitely pointed that out in the post-ECF interview. Spoelstra isn't too bad. i think all informed basketball fans pretty much know this. its easy for the ignorant uneducated masses to flame on spoelstra - especially considering the weight and pressure he has to carry everyday. i think he's a great defensive coach and he draws up some good plays. whether or not those plays go through are really up to the players to put it simply: not just anyone can make it to the finals two consecutive years. EVEN with a team consisting of lebron, wade, bosh & co.
Spoelstra's job is to get superstar personalities to gel and get the best out of each other. Coaches like Phil Jackson and Popovich have done that for a long time, Eric hasn't quite figured that part out yet. Miami does have a lot of plays where James gets the ball deeper/on the move, I just think they need to use it more. Nothing wrong with his play-calling or defensive sets.
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On June 13 2012 00:47 BlueRoyaL wrote:
i got a quick side question: how much influence do the assistant coaches have on a team?
I asked a question about the head coach earlier this year, and now i got one about them assistants.
do they play an important role in the development of a team and their performances on court as well?
All I know is that a team having Thibodeau as their assistant coach at this point would be imba!! he is too good on the defensive end lol.
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so are assistant coaches not really "assistant" coaches, but just coaches that specialize in one area?
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On June 13 2012 01:37 BlueRoyaL wrote:
so are assistant coaches not really "assistant" coaches, but just coaches that specialize in one area?
No, they are assistants. Head coach oversees all the areas, assistant coaches only specialize in one area. Which is why they're call assistant coaches, they help the head coach run a certain area.
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On June 13 2012 01:37 BlueRoyaL wrote:
so are assistant coaches not really "assistant" coaches, but just coaches that specialize in one area?
Some are there to work with specific players, others are defensive specialists, helping to design a teams defense (Marc Iavaroni), and then some are on the offensive side (Tex Winter).
It's not like football where most teams have separate people calling offensive and defensive plays. The head coach in the NBA makes all of the decisions in game and out (in general).
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I think Scotty Brooks knows how to use his team better than Spo though. I mean he has certain advantages but still.
I'll be the first one to say Spo is great but Brooks has gone up against Carlisle and then Pop and both times hes had his teams make the adjustments needed. Some of the tactical battles were really entertaining and sure his players did the business but he doesnt get enough credit. The Heat have had Lebron Stomp face when neccessary not quite the same.
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United States4471 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:21 TieN.nS) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 17:12 RowdierBob wrote:
There's no honour code in how you build a team--wtf?
Celtics got their stars via trades (Ray and KG); Heat acquired theirs through FA (LBJ and Bosh). Thunder drafted well in KD, Westbrook, Harden, Green (who they flipped for Perkins) and Ibaka.
I don't see how the Thunder or Celtics worked any harder to create a team "worthy of nba finals appearances."
That just takes Heat bashing to a new level of absurdity. =/ For some reason people object to the idea of players determining their own destinies. If players get screwed by the front office, "it's just business." Personally I think that what Miami did in deciding to team up was great, for a variety of reasons: they decided to come together and sacrifice individual glory with the goal of winning; they all took less money in order to do so; the (potential) level of play with LeBron and Wade teaming together has to be appreciated by any real basketball fan -- there is NO prettier play in basketball than a LeBron/Wade fast break. When Tim Duncan and Peyton Manning took pay cuts to help their respective teams out, they're celebrated for being team players and model citizens; why should it be different for these guys? And yeah, "The Decision" was a terrible idea on LeBron's part, but he was a free agent and simply exercised his right to choose where he wanted to play. Peyton Manning got hurt and the Colts dumped him like he meant nothing to their franchise, and this is pretty much standard practice in sports. Why should a professional athlete ever feel beholden to his team when this is the case? As far as the idea that teaming up with a competitor is "anticompetitive," what do you call repeatedly tanking for draft picks for nearly half a decade, as the Thunder did? And should a team break up when they get too much talent, in the name of competition? After this season, win or lose, the Thunder will likely lose either Serge Ibaka or James Harden to free agency because they just won't be able to afford both while paying Durant and Westbrook max contracts. You can't be mad at them if they leave, because they're young players and it's perfectly within their rights to go out and get theirs while they can. But this exciting young team with so much potential will be broken up as a result, which no true basketball fan can truly be happy about. What great joy would it be to see Ibaka and Harden take less money in order to keep the team together! Yet, what is so different about that to make the media paint these guys as heroes and LeBron, Wade, and Bosh as pariahs? The Heat should be celebrated for their unselfishness in pursuit of what, ideally, should be every professional athlete's motivation: winning. These guys are the antithesis of every selfish salary cap hogging team-killing cancer that everyone rightfully should hate, yet instead of being appreciated they're getting killed for it. It's ridiculous.
Completely agree. I'm all for the players taking the leverage and power from the owners. They're the talent that creates the business, and there's no reason they shouldn't have more control over their careers. The skewed perception where players are supposed to show "loyalty" to a franchise, while the franchises are expected to just run a business is utter bullshit.
I don't see why more superstar players don't take less money to allow their teams to have more cap flexibility to build winners around them. When it comes to the top stars like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc., they make so much money from endorsements (which go up with more winning) that any pay cut would have little to no bottom-line impact on their wealth in the short or long term. In the end, I know that a lot of it comes down to pride and feeling like you're getting what you deserve, and I actually completely agree with the idea that most franchise players are actually underpaid when you consider how much value they actually bring to a team in a star-driven sport like the NBA (if anything, it's the middle and lower class of players who are overpaid). However, once you've made your mark and gotten the respect, why not take a little less to allow your team to sign better teammates? This is particularly true for guys like Kobe who have nothing left to chase except more rings and records, neither of which is dependent on the value of his contract.
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Really stoked about today. Lego Lebron go win your first ring.
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United States4471 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:24 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 19:26 Ace wrote:
Tien you're post will fall on deaf ears. The perception that one team deserves a chip more than another because they built their team through the draft is one of the dumbest things you'll hear on this forum. Don't even waste your breath. I was talking about organizations, not players. You cant give Miami credit for what they did, it was Bron, Wade and Bosh that decided everything. On the contrary, Celtics and Thunder did a lot to get the players they got (Cs werent tanking either).
I don't really agree with this. Miami should get credit for making itself the destination for three stars to converge, because each of them had other possible destinations. I'm certain that Riley and others in the organization did a lot of work in convincing Wade to stay and bring the other two there. All three had to believe in the organization's leadership, coaching, and ability to put the right pieces around them to achieve their ambitious goal of multiple championships together.
To this day, I'm still dubious about how the Celtics convinced KG and Ray to join Pierce in Boston. Just as people suspect Jerry West had something to do with Pau joining the Lakers (less plausible IMO since he had retired as GM at the time), I don't see how people can ignore McHale's role in trading KG to his NBA alma mater (even though the offer was better by the simple inclusion of Al Jeff). Did they really do a lot other than whiff on the Oden-Durant sweepstakes and get lucky by having both Ray and KG looking to leave their teams at the same time for the same reason (win a ring)? Even Simmons think it was a miracle trade that saved Ainge's ass from what had been a very questionable GM career up to that point (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070730). Edit: Also, Boston was totally tanking for a chance at the Oden-Durant sweepstakes. Again, Simmons himself gave Boston the worst grade possible for tanking karma that year (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070522&sportCat=nba)
As for the Thunder, others have already pointed out that their success really boils down to tanking and getting lucky in the draft. Durant was seen as the consolation prize after Oden by everyone, and OKC got VERY lucky that they didn't get the first pick that year. Arguably, they got lucky again in not drafting second in 2008 because they almost certainly would have ended up with Beasley instead of Westbrook. You can even argue that they kind of screwed up that pick because they took him one spot ahead of Love, but no one's going to harp on that one since no one saw Love becoming the player he is today. Harden was just a great pick since he was perfect to play alongside Durant and Westbook, but, as with all of these picks, the Thunder had to get really lucky to have such high picks because even deliberate tanking doesn't guarantee top 5 picks. Not to say that the organization doesn't deserve any credit, but it's hard to argue that they did more and deserve more when they tanked (the most deplorable thing in the league IMO right now) and then got lucky in consecutive drafts.
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On June 13 2012 00:24 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 19:26 Ace wrote:
Tien you're post will fall on deaf ears. The perception that one team deserves a chip more than another because they built their team through the draft is one of the dumbest things you'll hear on this forum. Don't even waste your breath. I was talking about organizations, not players. You cant give Miami credit for what they did, it was Bron, Wade and Bosh that decided everything. On the contrary, Celtics and Thunder did a lot to get the players they got (Cs werent tanking either).
Ok you should stop talking about the organizations like you do, Pat Riley flew to talk with Shaq as he did talk A LOT with Bron, he even took the rings, so he could show Shaq and Bron to see why he wants' them there. Every player talks about Miami as a class act organization, so don't come in here talking bullshit about my team that i cheer for 14 years saying they didn't do shit. They did everything in their power to aquire any talent that would make them a contender. Ofcourse players ultimately decide if they wan't to go anywere.
But saying they didn't do their part is just stupid. Everyone wen't thru rebuilds and salary cap savings to get better players.
All that Thunder did to get those players are drafting and trading. As do all teams. So please less bashing about Miami as and organization. It's just rubbish talk you are doing.
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On June 13 2012 00:45 BlueRoyaL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:17 Aerisky wrote:
Hm, not to say okc is poorly coached or worse off in the coaching department, but I do remember Doc Rivers saying essentially that people don't give enough credit to Spo. I don't know whether he was just being nice/graceful in defeat, but he definitely pointed that out in the post-ECF interview. Spoelstra isn't too bad. i think all informed basketball fans pretty much know this. its easy for the ignorant uneducated masses to flame on spoelstra - especially considering the weight and pressure he has to carry everyday. i think he's a great defensive coach and he draws up some good plays. whether or not those plays go through are really up to the players to put it simply: not just anyone can make it to the finals two consecutive years. EVEN with a team consisting of lebron, wade, bosh & co.
I never really said Spo was a bad coach, I just honestly think Scotty is better, especially since he doesn't have Pat Riley whispering in his ear. You don't see as many sideline blowups for the Thunder as Miami, and as far as I know, the Heat have called several players-only meetings, which signals to me that Spo doesn't have a ton of control over the locker room.
Now, in terms of on-court decisions (which is what really counts), Spo has made some strange decisions this year and in the past. I think with a deeper roster he could do more, but at the moment he's constantly "tweaking" his lineups.
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I remember that off season well, knicks had lbj in a knivks uniform, chicago fans had pictures of him in bulls uniforms next to rose, cleveland fans were so confident they were going retain him, they had already started looking down on toronto. then bosh and wade decide to go to miami, and everyone looks at how the heat can clear enough space to sign lebron, every smart person knew where he would go. south beach, one of the biggest party cities in america, mixed with good tax breaks, and a solid basketball organization, the only other option would be chicago, and the weather is much better in south beach.
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On June 12 2012 19:21 TieN.nS) wrote:
As far as the idea that teaming up with a competitor is "anticompetitive," what do you call repeatedly tanking for draft picks for nearly half a decade, as the Thunder did? And should a team break up when they get too much talent, in the name of competition? After this season, win or lose, the Thunder will likely lose either Serge Ibaka or James Harden to free agency because they just won't be able to afford both while paying Durant and Westbrook max contracts. You can't be mad at them if they leave, because they're young players and it's perfectly within their rights to go out and get theirs while they can. But this exciting young team with so much potential will be broken up as a result, which no true basketball fan can truly be happy about. What great joy would it be to see Ibaka and Harden take less money in order to keep the team together! Yet, what is so different about that to make the media paint these guys as heroes and LeBron, Wade, and Bosh as pariahs? The Heat should be celebrated for their unselfishness in pursuit of what, ideally, should be every professional athlete's motivation: winning. These guys are the antithesis of every selfish salary cap hogging team-killing cancer that everyone rightfully should hate, yet instead of being appreciated they're getting killed for it. It's ridiculous.
Harden and Serge are signed for next year to the Thunder. Whats going to happen if the Heat fail to win a ring again? Spo going to get the boot and 1 of the big three wont be in Miami. To praise the players for signing 95 million dollar contract instead of 110 million dollar contracts is quite funny.(All three of the contracts are bigger than Durants.)
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On June 13 2012 02:41 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 19:21 TieN.nS) wrote:On June 12 2012 17:12 RowdierBob wrote:
There's no honour code in how you build a team--wtf?
Celtics got their stars via trades (Ray and KG); Heat acquired theirs through FA (LBJ and Bosh). Thunder drafted well in KD, Westbrook, Harden, Green (who they flipped for Perkins) and Ibaka.
I don't see how the Thunder or Celtics worked any harder to create a team "worthy of nba finals appearances."
That just takes Heat bashing to a new level of absurdity. =/ For some reason people object to the idea of players determining their own destinies. If players get screwed by the front office, "it's just business." Personally I think that what Miami did in deciding to team up was great, for a variety of reasons: they decided to come together and sacrifice individual glory with the goal of winning; they all took less money in order to do so; the (potential) level of play with LeBron and Wade teaming together has to be appreciated by any real basketball fan -- there is NO prettier play in basketball than a LeBron/Wade fast break. When Tim Duncan and Peyton Manning took pay cuts to help their respective teams out, they're celebrated for being team players and model citizens; why should it be different for these guys? And yeah, "The Decision" was a terrible idea on LeBron's part, but he was a free agent and simply exercised his right to choose where he wanted to play. Peyton Manning got hurt and the Colts dumped him like he meant nothing to their franchise, and this is pretty much standard practice in sports. Why should a professional athlete ever feel beholden to his team when this is the case? As far as the idea that teaming up with a competitor is "anticompetitive," what do you call repeatedly tanking for draft picks for nearly half a decade, as the Thunder did? And should a team break up when they get too much talent, in the name of competition? After this season, win or lose, the Thunder will likely lose either Serge Ibaka or James Harden to free agency because they just won't be able to afford both while paying Durant and Westbrook max contracts. You can't be mad at them if they leave, because they're young players and it's perfectly within their rights to go out and get theirs while they can. But this exciting young team with so much potential will be broken up as a result, which no true basketball fan can truly be happy about. What great joy would it be to see Ibaka and Harden take less money in order to keep the team together! Yet, what is so different about that to make the media paint these guys as heroes and LeBron, Wade, and Bosh as pariahs? The Heat should be celebrated for their unselfishness in pursuit of what, ideally, should be every professional athlete's motivation: winning. These guys are the antithesis of every selfish salary cap hogging team-killing cancer that everyone rightfully should hate, yet instead of being appreciated they're getting killed for it. It's ridiculous. Completely agree. I'm all for the players taking the leverage and power from the owners. They're the talent that creates the business, and there's no reason they shouldn't have more control over their careers. The skewed perception where players are supposed to show "loyalty" to a franchise, while the franchises are expected to just run a business is utter bullshit. I don't see why more superstar players don't take less money to allow their teams to have more cap flexibility to build winners around them. When it comes to the top stars like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc., they make so much money from endorsements (which go up with more winning) that any pay cut would have little to no bottom-line impact on their wealth in the short or long term. In the end, I know that a lot of it comes down to pride and feeling like you're getting what you deserve, and I actually completely agree with the idea that most franchise players are actually underpaid when you consider how much value they actually bring to a team in a star-driven sport like the NBA (if anything, it's the middle and lower class of players who are overpaid). However, once you've made your mark and gotten the respect, why not take a little less to allow your team to sign better teammates? This is particularly true for guys like Kobe who have nothing left to chase except more rings and records, neither of which is dependent on the value of his contract.
Like has been discussed here before- HotBid did a good job explaining it a few pages back in this same thread- that the majority of competent fans did not have a problem with the players getting together for these same reasons, it was just dumb choices that came along with that decision that gave people a reason for some temporary, yet justifiable villainous look of Lebron. I agree with what you guys said, but also believe HotBid nailed it earlier if anyone really wants to go back and read that.
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On June 13 2012 03:57 jeeeeohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:45 BlueRoyaL wrote:On June 13 2012 00:17 Aerisky wrote:
Hm, not to say okc is poorly coached or worse off in the coaching department, but I do remember Doc Rivers saying essentially that people don't give enough credit to Spo. I don't know whether he was just being nice/graceful in defeat, but he definitely pointed that out in the post-ECF interview. Spoelstra isn't too bad. i think all informed basketball fans pretty much know this. its easy for the ignorant uneducated masses to flame on spoelstra - especially considering the weight and pressure he has to carry everyday. i think he's a great defensive coach and he draws up some good plays. whether or not those plays go through are really up to the players to put it simply: not just anyone can make it to the finals two consecutive years. EVEN with a team consisting of lebron, wade, bosh & co. I never really said Spo was a bad coach, I just honestly think Scotty is better, especially since he doesn't have Pat Riley whispering in his ear. You don't see as many sideline blowups for the Thunder as Miami, and as far as I know, the Heat have called several players-only meetings, which signals to me that Spo doesn't have a ton of control over the locker room. Now, in terms of on-court decisions (which is what really counts), Spo has made some strange decisions this year and in the past. I think with a deeper roster he could do more, but at the moment he's constantly "tweaking" his lineups.
Ah don't worry about the first part, I was just saying in general (not necessarily disagreeing with you) that I think Spo is underrated in several respects and he was just agreeing with me and elaborating on what he thought. I won't comment on which coaching team I think is better, it's hard to say really, but I just wanted to say that Spoelstra specifically does get more more undue criticism than he does credit for what he does. ^^
On June 13 2012 05:18 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:41 XaI)CyRiC wrote:On June 12 2012 19:21 TieN.nS) wrote:On June 12 2012 17:12 RowdierBob wrote:
There's no honour code in how you build a team--wtf?
Celtics got their stars via trades (Ray and KG); Heat acquired theirs through FA (LBJ and Bosh). Thunder drafted well in KD, Westbrook, Harden, Green (who they flipped for Perkins) and Ibaka.
I don't see how the Thunder or Celtics worked any harder to create a team "worthy of nba finals appearances."
That just takes Heat bashing to a new level of absurdity. =/ For some reason people object to the idea of players determining their own destinies. If players get screwed by the front office, "it's just business." Personally I think that what Miami did in deciding to team up was great, for a variety of reasons: they decided to come together and sacrifice individual glory with the goal of winning; they all took less money in order to do so; the (potential) level of play with LeBron and Wade teaming together has to be appreciated by any real basketball fan -- there is NO prettier play in basketball than a LeBron/Wade fast break. When Tim Duncan and Peyton Manning took pay cuts to help their respective teams out, they're celebrated for being team players and model citizens; why should it be different for these guys? And yeah, "The Decision" was a terrible idea on LeBron's part, but he was a free agent and simply exercised his right to choose where he wanted to play. Peyton Manning got hurt and the Colts dumped him like he meant nothing to their franchise, and this is pretty much standard practice in sports. Why should a professional athlete ever feel beholden to his team when this is the case? As far as the idea that teaming up with a competitor is "anticompetitive," what do you call repeatedly tanking for draft picks for nearly half a decade, as the Thunder did? And should a team break up when they get too much talent, in the name of competition? After this season, win or lose, the Thunder will likely lose either Serge Ibaka or James Harden to free agency because they just won't be able to afford both while paying Durant and Westbrook max contracts. You can't be mad at them if they leave, because they're young players and it's perfectly within their rights to go out and get theirs while they can. But this exciting young team with so much potential will be broken up as a result, which no true basketball fan can truly be happy about. What great joy would it be to see Ibaka and Harden take less money in order to keep the team together! Yet, what is so different about that to make the media paint these guys as heroes and LeBron, Wade, and Bosh as pariahs? The Heat should be celebrated for their unselfishness in pursuit of what, ideally, should be every professional athlete's motivation: winning. These guys are the antithesis of every selfish salary cap hogging team-killing cancer that everyone rightfully should hate, yet instead of being appreciated they're getting killed for it. It's ridiculous. Completely agree. I'm all for the players taking the leverage and power from the owners. They're the talent that creates the business, and there's no reason they shouldn't have more control over their careers. The skewed perception where players are supposed to show "loyalty" to a franchise, while the franchises are expected to just run a business is utter bullshit. I don't see why more superstar players don't take less money to allow their teams to have more cap flexibility to build winners around them. When it comes to the top stars like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc., they make so much money from endorsements (which go up with more winning) that any pay cut would have little to no bottom-line impact on their wealth in the short or long term. In the end, I know that a lot of it comes down to pride and feeling like you're getting what you deserve, and I actually completely agree with the idea that most franchise players are actually underpaid when you consider how much value they actually bring to a team in a star-driven sport like the NBA (if anything, it's the middle and lower class of players who are overpaid). However, once you've made your mark and gotten the respect, why not take a little less to allow your team to sign better teammates? This is particularly true for guys like Kobe who have nothing left to chase except more rings and records, neither of which is dependent on the value of his contract. Like has been discussed here before- HotBid did a good job explaining it a few pages back in this same thread- that the majority of competent fans did not have a problem with the players getting together for these same reasons, it was just dumb choices that came along with that decision that gave people a reason for some temporary, yet justifiable villainous look of Lebron. I agree with what you guys said, but also believe HotBid nailed it earlier if anyone really wants to go back and read that.
There were some parts with which I disagreed but in general I guess what he and Ace were saying presented both "sides" (if you could say that there were two legitimate and diametrically opposed sides, which wasn't exactly the case) very well and described the overall situation right on. The one thing I do have issue with is people refusing to move on and turning the temporarily justified criticism into this deep-seated, multi-year hatred that continues to this day and whatnot.
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On June 13 2012 05:18 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:41 XaI)CyRiC wrote:On June 12 2012 19:21 TieN.nS) wrote:On June 12 2012 17:12 RowdierBob wrote:
There's no honour code in how you build a team--wtf?
Celtics got their stars via trades (Ray and KG); Heat acquired theirs through FA (LBJ and Bosh). Thunder drafted well in KD, Westbrook, Harden, Green (who they flipped for Perkins) and Ibaka.
I don't see how the Thunder or Celtics worked any harder to create a team "worthy of nba finals appearances."
That just takes Heat bashing to a new level of absurdity. =/ For some reason people object to the idea of players determining their own destinies. If players get screwed by the front office, "it's just business." Personally I think that what Miami did in deciding to team up was great, for a variety of reasons: they decided to come together and sacrifice individual glory with the goal of winning; they all took less money in order to do so; the (potential) level of play with LeBron and Wade teaming together has to be appreciated by any real basketball fan -- there is NO prettier play in basketball than a LeBron/Wade fast break. When Tim Duncan and Peyton Manning took pay cuts to help their respective teams out, they're celebrated for being team players and model citizens; why should it be different for these guys? And yeah, "The Decision" was a terrible idea on LeBron's part, but he was a free agent and simply exercised his right to choose where he wanted to play. Peyton Manning got hurt and the Colts dumped him like he meant nothing to their franchise, and this is pretty much standard practice in sports. Why should a professional athlete ever feel beholden to his team when this is the case? As far as the idea that teaming up with a competitor is "anticompetitive," what do you call repeatedly tanking for draft picks for nearly half a decade, as the Thunder did? And should a team break up when they get too much talent, in the name of competition? After this season, win or lose, the Thunder will likely lose either Serge Ibaka or James Harden to free agency because they just won't be able to afford both while paying Durant and Westbrook max contracts. You can't be mad at them if they leave, because they're young players and it's perfectly within their rights to go out and get theirs while they can. But this exciting young team with so much potential will be broken up as a result, which no true basketball fan can truly be happy about. What great joy would it be to see Ibaka and Harden take less money in order to keep the team together! Yet, what is so different about that to make the media paint these guys as heroes and LeBron, Wade, and Bosh as pariahs? The Heat should be celebrated for their unselfishness in pursuit of what, ideally, should be every professional athlete's motivation: winning. These guys are the antithesis of every selfish salary cap hogging team-killing cancer that everyone rightfully should hate, yet instead of being appreciated they're getting killed for it. It's ridiculous. Completely agree. I'm all for the players taking the leverage and power from the owners. They're the talent that creates the business, and there's no reason they shouldn't have more control over their careers. The skewed perception where players are supposed to show "loyalty" to a franchise, while the franchises are expected to just run a business is utter bullshit. I don't see why more superstar players don't take less money to allow their teams to have more cap flexibility to build winners around them. When it comes to the top stars like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc., they make so much money from endorsements (which go up with more winning) that any pay cut would have little to no bottom-line impact on their wealth in the short or long term. In the end, I know that a lot of it comes down to pride and feeling like you're getting what you deserve, and I actually completely agree with the idea that most franchise players are actually underpaid when you consider how much value they actually bring to a team in a star-driven sport like the NBA (if anything, it's the middle and lower class of players who are overpaid). However, once you've made your mark and gotten the respect, why not take a little less to allow your team to sign better teammates? This is particularly true for guys like Kobe who have nothing left to chase except more rings and records, neither of which is dependent on the value of his contract. Like has been discussed here before- HotBid did a good job explaining it a few pages back in this same thread- that the majority of competent fans did not have a problem with the players getting together for these same reasons, it was just dumb choices that came along with that decision that gave people a reason for some temporary, yet justifiable villainous look of Lebron. I agree with what you guys said, but also believe HotBid nailed it earlier if anyone really wants to go back and read that.
Honestly I didnt have much to say at the time but he was nitpicking, there was no good way to manage that situation. He wouldve been a villain or a quitter regardless. And the media wouldve picked up a line and fed it to everyone like they are till today.
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I don't see what Lebron did as sacrificing individual glory. Sure he took pay cuts or whatever, but with all his endorsements he'll be just fine. I see him more as "waa this team isn't good enough for me, I'm moving to Miami". The television special didn't help my opinion of him either.
All that being said, he's still a damn good player, but I'll be rooting against him
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On June 13 2012 06:03 IPlaySC wrote:
I don't see what Lebron did as sacrificing individual glory. Sure he took pay cuts or whatever, but with all his endorsements he'll be just fine. I see him more as "waa this team isn't good enough for me, I'm moving to Miami". The television special didn't help my opinion of him either.
All that being said, he's still a damn good player, but I'll be rooting against him
it's not sacrificing individual glory because for some reason championships are now considered an individual accomplishment and LeBron's lack of them is seen as a personal flaw. Not sure when that idea started.
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EPT
