There are a lot of people arguing about the dc that happened but no one actually taking screenshots or anything to argue their point so here are some screens to show MY point of view:
The regame was well deserved.
MKP had 2 vikings, 6~8 Marauders and 6~8 marines in production vs 7 zelots and 2 stalkers and a warp prism. All of Partings other units were at his main with no foward pylons.
but there were units on the production facilities!!!!
Attacking tech labs and berely denting the racks... <.< I don't see any burning buildings do you?
MKP had 2 vikings, 6~8 Marauders and 6~8 marines in production vs 7 zelots and 2 stalkers and a warp prism. All of Partings other units were at his main with no foward pylons.
The key here is in production. All of MKP's units would've come out one by one and by the time they would've been all out Partings main force (18 zealots, 6 stalkers and 6 high templar), which was much bigger than MKP's reinforcements, would have been there already. You're trying to make it sound much closer than it actually was by comparing MKP's production and only taking Parting's force that was in the screenshot, not his entire force that was coming to the fight (plus any potential reinforcements, he had the WP after all).
I think the regame was sort of deserved because he wasn't as far down that it was a guaranteed loss, but I don't think it's really arguable that Parting was far ahead of MKP and would've likely won. The DC was a true shame considering + Show Spoiler +
MKP went on to win the whole match, which wouldn't have happened if Parting would've won this match, so the DC effectively won the whole GSTL for Prime. Parting was very exhausted the second game, understandably considering he had played 3 games already and dealing with a DC is tiring, which led to MKP's easy win in the second game.
Oh well, lets hope Blizzard finally takes the hint and implements saving or reconnecting to multiplayer games (because, lets face it, they will never implement LAN)
I don't think this needs a new thread, it would be a rinse and repeat of what already has 50 pages in the GSTL Grand Finals LR thread.
Also, your numbers are wrong. Parting had way more zealots, more Stalkers, High Templars farther away.
MarineKing had 3 marauders and 6 vikings.
I don't think MarineKing deserved a flat re-game, he would have lost that game 9 times out of 10. They should have extended it to a Bo3 and had Parting start up 1-0.
MKP had 2 vikings, 6~8 Marauders and 6~8 marines in production vs 7 zelots and 2 stalkers and a warp prism. All of Partings other units were at his main with no foward pylons.
The key here is in production, they will all come out one by one and by the time they're all out partings main force, that was much bigger than MKP's reinforcements, would have been there already. I think the regame was sort of deserved because he wasn't as far down that it was a guaranteed loss, but I don't think it's really arguable that Parting was far ahead of MKP and would've likely won. The DC was a true shame considering + Show Spoiler +
MKP went on to win the whole match, which wouldn't have happened if Parting would've won this match, so the DC effectively won the whole GSTL for Prime. Parting was very exhausted the second game, understandably considering he had played 3 games already and dealing with a DC is tiring, which led to MKP's easy win in the second game.
Oh well, lets hope Blizzard finally takes the hint and implements saving or reconnecting to multiplayer games (because, lets face it, they will never implement LAN)
Exhaustion is crappy argument in my opinion. These guys play tons of games for extended periods of time, three games isn't enough to have a significant impact. Him being rattled by the situation would likely be more relevant.
The point is the game did not and COULD NOT end right there and then. Even if he was ~30 supply ahead, 1 wrong engagement and parting would have easily lost just like any other PVT.
On April 08 2012 21:40 Mordiford wrote: I don't think this needs a new thread, it would be a rinse and repeat of what already has 50 pages in the GSTL Grand Finals LR thread.
Also, your numbers are wrong. Parting had way more zealots, more Stalkers, High Templars farther away.
MarineKing had 3 marauders and 6 vikings.
I don't think MarineKing deserved a flat re-game, he would have lost that game 9 times out of 10. They should have extended it to a Bo3 and had Parting start up 1-0.
Extending to a best of 3 wouldve been one way to go. The remake wasn't the right decision imo.
On April 08 2012 21:40 Mordiford wrote: I don't think this needs a new thread, it would be a rinse and repeat of what already has 50 pages in the GSTL Grand Finals LR thread.
Also, your numbers are wrong. Parting had way more zealots, more Stalkers, High Templars farther away.
MarineKing had 3 marauders and 6 vikings.
I don't think MarineKing deserved a flat re-game, he would have lost that game 9 times out of 10. They should have extended it to a Bo3 and had Parting start up 1-0.
Extending to a best of 3 wouldve been one way to go. The remake wasn't the right decision imo.
In a comparison between a re-game and giving Parting a win in that position, I might have also chosen the re-game.
Ideally, they would extend it to a Bo3 though. Not sure what other "ways to go" there would be in that kind of a situation, but that's all I can think of.
Ya, this will probably get locked. I don't think adding screenshots of something we all saw, and by now have reviewed in a VOD like 10 times, really adds to it.
I do think Parting had broken him, and behind everything, Parting's econ was hitting the out of control point because all fighting was on MKP's side.
It's a shame too that the re-game had almost all the same initial actions, with none of MKP's initial errors from the first game.
On April 08 2012 21:31 Clogon wrote: MKP had 2 vikings, 6~8 Marauders and 6~8 marines in production vs 7 zelots and 2 stalkers and a warp prism. All of Partings other units were at his main with no foward pylons.
he had a warp prism and it was already well on its way to the base. you may say that the vikings can take it out easily but he had enough stalkers to defend that.
i'm not doubting MKP's skill in general and i think he would've taken prime far but i reckon that dc should've been victory for startale based on the score and the graphs in the score screen.
If Dustin still holds on to the point of no LAN or tournament mode then god help blizzard. It was so disappointing to see the DC. The only counter argument is that LoL requires internet therefore SC2 should be fine but in reality its an issue that could be avoided and one that has come up before
Parting were camping 3rax, MKP still had many more rax at his 3rd/main, starport at his natural, and his economy untouched.
PartinG had a clear advantage, but the game wasnt over, he had few units at MKP that could be outmicroed, his other units shown in the unit tab was cross map.
PartinG would most likely have won later if he regrouped and then attacked before MKP could build up anything, but if the DC happened 3 minutes earlier, I believe MKP was up 50 supply, he got over confident and threw the lead away, the exact same thing could happen for PartinG, as MKP wasn't dying within the next 2 minutes for sure.
People are forgetting something - in Starcraft, there is a precedent where a re-game occurs if the result is not 100%. The referee ruled that it was not 100% and hence the re-game. It is obvious that Parting had a clear advantage - however, wins are not awarded for clear advantage.
However, I would agree that wins should be awarded on clear wins however, but the tournament needs to specify this clearly beforehand.
in game 1, parting used feedback on both medivacs before morphing to an archon when MKP did the timing attack with +1 attack, stim, and 2 medivacs. in this game he deflected the timing attack after a long battle while trading decently.
i thought the feedbacks were genius because it pretty much negates the effect of the medivacs
but.. in game 2, he didnt use the feedback and instead just morphed the archon ahead of time. coincidentally, in this game the timing attack hurt alot
Decision was terrible. Effectively, they gave the #1 player in the world a second chance at life, and there is no way in hell he loses on a regame. In all scenarios he loses that game within a minute of the disconnect occuring so I don't think there is even much argument to say MKP might have won there, but moreover the logistics of what is the right decision to make.
I believe the best decision here would have been to award MKP with a loss, but not to add it to the win tally for team Startale. If they kept the score at 2-1 and just eliminated MKP I feel like it satisfies both parties in some ways, while favoring startale more b/c it was very evident MKP was about to die so parting deserves the right to have taken out MKP. I really would have liked to listen in on what those referees were talking about that lasted so long to finally arrive at the most unfair decision
My friend who never bets on sports decided to tail my 2k bet with his own 300 I put on startale only to find out that not only was this the sickest bet ever since parting all-killed the best 3 players on prime, but the reason he still lost is b/c of a disconnect occuring at a live event (lol)
I said it once but I'll say it again, MKP's situation was far from a clear defeat.
PartinG was scattered, he had a minimum of units attacking MKP's base. PartinG was forced to warp units at home because he didn't have a forward pylon, while MKP's production was about to pop.
PartinG had his Warp Prism out of position in MKP's nat or main, I saw go up there in the heat of battle. It would have been sniped by vikings quickly, and even if he relocated he couldn't defend it from 6 vikings with so few stalkers actually close by. PartinG couldn't even warp into MKP's base because he for one had minimum resources and then he had use his warp cycles.
PartinG didn't have his HT with his army and his army was scattered, some in the middle going towards MKP, some in his base.
MKP had the superior position, he was on high ground, with a wall, with SCVs to be pulled to mass repair and slow the zealots.
PartinG's zealots would have worked against him trying to fight up ramps and in chokes, if he would have comited to a frontal assault he would have been wiped out, he had to wait for his reinforcements, which would have bought MKP even more time to regroup.
MKP could afford to sack some SCV's because he still had the backing of MULEs from 5 orbitals.
Now, if PartinG was in the main base, with all of his army, with his Gates ready to warp in and with a Prism right there, I would absolutely say PartinG would have won. But matter of fact, PartinG had none of those advantages. MKP's situation was grim, but he was far from out and he had pulled comebacks from worst.
On April 08 2012 22:01 mishimaBeef wrote: in game 1, parting used feedback on both medivacs before morphing to an archon when MKP did the timing attack with +1 attack, stim, and 2 medivacs. in this game he deflected the timing attack after a long battle while trading decently.
i thought the feedbacks were genius because it pretty much negates the effect of the medivacs
but.. in game 2, he didnt use the feedback and instead just morphed the archon ahead of time. coincidentally, in this game the timing attack hurt alot
I agree and that shows just how really little things tend to decide matches
People that think their opinion is more important than everyone else's so they have to make a new thread. Go and post in the LR, the discussion is in there.
MKP had 2 vikings, 6~8 Marauders and 6~8 marines in production vs 7 zelots and 2 stalkers and a warp prism. All of Partings other units were at his main with no foward pylons.
How could he possibly have that in production at that moment when the food difference between what he had out (89 food) and what showed on the overlay (110 food) was only 21. If what you're saying is right it would have been 22-28 food. Remember that some of those units were being produced in the rax that were camped and would have died instantly, and vikings wouldn't have helped at all.
They should have done a regame with Parting getting map choice imo. The game wasn't over, but anyone in their right mind can tell you Parting had a large advantage.
I'm really pissed off. Parting played so much better than MKP. He was camping the production and had a warpprism in MKP's main. Maybe im biased as i am a ST fan but to me, this decision was one of the more retarded in the history of starcraft.
On April 08 2012 21:48 aka_star wrote: If Dustin still holds on to the point of no LAN or tournament mode then god help blizzard. It was so disappointing to see the DC. The only counter argument is that LoL requires internet therefore SC2 should be fine but in reality its an issue that could be avoided and one that has come up before
LAN isn't really the answer here. Game saving would solve both internet and LAN disconnect issues.
this will remain in history for EVER as being the most stupid , the most biased decision gs(t)l made .
mkp you are a good player but if you ever read this , you are a pice of @#$% as a person . you know you lost dont remake .
People like this need to be banned. MKP had nothing to do with the decision, and anyone who is in that situation in competitive tournaments (believe me, I know I've been there with questionable pad shit in $10,000 ITG/DDR tournaments from personal experience) know to keep their mouths shut and let the refs decide. In a well run tournament the player will NEVER have to make that sort of decision in any sport as it puts an unreasonable burden on them from both sides of the spectrum.
That's exactly what happened. I personally would have let Parting have map choice or make it a BO3 with parting up 1, but it wasn't my call to make, and it sure as hell wasn't MKPs. Your entire career is on the line, you play your heart out to do what it takes and he showed an amazing 4 (and a half) world class games.
On April 08 2012 22:17 xsnac wrote: mkp you are a good player but if you ever read this , you are a pice of @#$% as a person . you know you lost dont remake .
To be honest I think your statement tells us more about you than it does about MKP.
You're right, it wasn't completely over. But I'd say Parting had a huge advantage (maybe let's say 90% sure he would go on to win); so the decision is questionable at least. But the other option, giving the win directly to Parting would be questionable as well, so the whole situation sucks. Blizzard's to blame here, give us LAN already.
MKP had 2 vikings, 6~8 Marauders and 6~8 marines in production vs 7 zelots and 2 stalkers and a warp prism. All of Partings other units were at his main with no foward pylons.
On April 08 2012 22:05 Destructicon wrote: I said it once but I'll say it again, MKP's situation was far from a clear defeat.
PartinG was scattered, he had a minimum of units attacking MKP's base. PartinG was forced to warp units at home because he didn't have a forward pylon, while MKP's production was about to pop.
PartinG had his Warp Prism out of position in MKP's nat or main, I saw go up there in the heat of battle. It would have been sniped by vikings quickly, and even if he relocated he couldn't defend it from 6 vikings with so few stalkers actually close by. PartinG couldn't even warp into MKP's base because he for one had minimum resources and then he had use his warp cycles.
PartinG didn't have his HT with his army and his army was scattered, some in the middle going towards MKP, some in his base.
MKP had the superior position, he was on high ground, with a wall, with SCVs to be pulled to mass repair and slow the zealots.
PartinG's zealots would have worked against him trying to fight up ramps and in chokes, if he would have comited to a frontal assault he would have been wiped out, he had to wait for his reinforcements, which would have bought MKP even more time to regroup.
MKP could afford to sack some SCV's because he still had the backing of MULEs from 5 orbitals.
Now, if PartinG was in the main base, with all of his army, with his Gates ready to warp in and with a Prism right there, I would absolutely say PartinG would have won. But matter of fact, PartinG had none of those advantages. MKP's situation was grim, but he was far from out and he had pulled comebacks from worst.
Completely agreed with his argument. If it was any other players, I would give PartinG a win, but this is MKP we are talking about, and I have seen time and time again when he would pull a comeback in an impossible situation, and last night's situation was easily one of those.
I think the biggest issue with the regame is that MKP had no medivacs. No medivacs against an army camping your production is just about impossible. Especially against a player of partings skill. If he still had like 6 medivacs kicking around then its a different story, but even MKP can't micro forever without their healing.
Ultimately they needed to regame because the game wasn't 100% conclusive, but on the other hand it would have taken a miracle for parting to lose. Someone else in the thread had a good solution with a Bo3 with parting being up 1-0. I think that would have been a fair compromise instead of just stealing partings well fought victory away. It's a shame he has nothing to show for that gem of a game.
I think the standard should be though that if the person has to totally pull off a big 'comeback' from a very disadvantageous position, then it's a Loss.
Think of a Baseball game or something, if it rains and 5 innings are played, game is over. Obviously the other team could comeback...but if there is a very clear advantage, I don't think it should have to be a 99.9% decisive advantage to call it.
i think if you can look at it and say like, 80-90% of the time this game is lost, that should be fine. and it was definitely in that position.
On April 08 2012 21:48 aka_star wrote: If Dustin still holds on to the point of no LAN or tournament mode then god help blizzard. It was so disappointing to see the DC. The only counter argument is that LoL requires internet therefore SC2 should be fine but in reality its an issue that could be avoided and one that has come up before
LAN isn't really the answer here. Game saving would solve both internet and LAN disconnect issues.
Game saving seems like a good compromise since LAN will never happen in sc2 and will fade from most games going forward.
What lost the game for ST was the lack of stable connection and lack of LAN or some sort of save game on disconnect. GOM were put in an impossible situation. It was an absolutely perfect chance to show those big heads at Blizzard why LAN is needed, the disconnect couldn't have been in a more perfect place. The whole thing was a mess and I think the regame was justified. It was impossible to tell what PartinG would have done. Who knows, maybe he would have made a mistake allowing MKP back in the game with his production units.
Even without any forward pylons, PartinG had his warp-ins ready and he was 40 army supply ahead. Ye, certainly MarineKing is a good player, but I don't think it was doable. Even if MarineKing fends off that attack, he will have to fend off double supply of protoss army with terran army. It's just a clear "no".
On April 08 2012 22:05 Destructicon wrote: I said it once but I'll say it again, MKP's situation was far from a clear defeat.
PartinG was scattered, he had a minimum of units attacking MKP's base. PartinG was forced to warp units at home because he didn't have a forward pylon, while MKP's production was about to pop.
PartinG had his Warp Prism out of position in MKP's nat or main, I saw go up there in the heat of battle. It would have been sniped by vikings quickly, and even if he relocated he couldn't defend it from 6 vikings with so few stalkers actually close by. PartinG couldn't even warp into MKP's base because he for one had minimum resources and then he had use his warp cycles.
PartinG didn't have his HT with his army and his army was scattered, some in the middle going towards MKP, some in his base.
MKP had the superior position, he was on high ground, with a wall, with SCVs to be pulled to mass repair and slow the zealots.
PartinG's zealots would have worked against him trying to fight up ramps and in chokes, if he would have comited to a frontal assault he would have been wiped out, he had to wait for his reinforcements, which would have bought MKP even more time to regroup.
MKP could afford to sack some SCV's because he still had the backing of MULEs from 5 orbitals.
Now, if PartinG was in the main base, with all of his army, with his Gates ready to warp in and with a Prism right there, I would absolutely say PartinG would have won. But matter of fact, PartinG had none of those advantages. MKP's situation was grim, but he was far from out and he had pulled comebacks from worst.
Completely agreed with his argument. If it was any other players, I would give PartinG a win, but this is MKP we are talking about, and I have seen time and time again when he would pull a comeback in an impossible situation, and last night's situation was easily one of those.
I agree with it as well. Parting had a huge advantage would probably have won, but it wasn't set in stone. MKP was mining from at least three bases and most of his infrastructure was still intact... only three of his barracks on the low ground were being camped. Crazier comebacks have happened. Parting could've made a mistake. It doesn't take much to lose gateway units to stimmed 3/3 bio.
On April 08 2012 22:50 DidYuhim wrote: Even without any forward pylons, PartinG had his warp-ins ready and he was 40 army supply ahead. Ye, certainly MarineKing is a good player, but I don't think it was doable. Even if MarineKing fends off that attack, he will have to fend off double supply of protoss army with terran army. It's just a clear "no".
PartinG's army was scattered, not all in one place, his HT where at home and it would have taken an eternity to cross the map. PartinG's Warp Prism was out of position in MKP's base, ready to be sniped by vikings (5 of them with upgrades 1 shot WPs). Even if the it wasn't out of position he didn't have enough stalkers at the front line to defend the WP if MKP wanted to snipe it.
Lastly PartinG was forced to go up a choke, into a ramp, defended and repaired by SCV's plus his army about to pop. And lastly PartinG didn't have neither the resources or the warp ins to use the prism right away.
MKP's odds where much, much better then people make them out to be. I'm not saying he would have won, but it isn't totally inconceivable either, so the rematch was justified.
Parting would have most likely won due to having that Warp Prism perfectly ready to reinforce, but nobody can say for 100% certain especially since if anybody could come back from a situation like that it would be MKP. The real injustice is that if Parting would have won, he now is robbed of a clean victory.
It's a shame we have to have these discussions. :|
The question shouldn't be whether a remake was in order or who had the better army, the question should be why this shit is still happening and why Blizzard hasn't taken means to fix it.
... I go to sleep after a headache of reading the LR topic and wake up to see this topic...
do we really need to have this discussion in a new topic again? I feel like I've said the same thing about 10-15 times already in the LR topic to disprove most of what was said anyways.
People forget that there was a warp prism in MKP's main. Therefore everything that would have popped out from those barracks would have died. There was no reinforcments of MKP to speak of.
On April 08 2012 23:05 An2quamaraN wrote: People forget that there was a warp prism in MKP's main. Therefore everything that would have popped out from those barracks would have died. There was no reinforcments of MKP to speak of.
people also forget there are 6 vikings that could've easily taken out the warp prism and that parting at the time of the screenshot only has 200/500, and probably wouldn't warp in a ton of ht's in the opponent's base with no energy to storm also wouldn't warp in 2 zealots to derp around whereas mkp has a ton of barracks other than the 3 forward barracks.
Can people stop re-introducing the same arguments Over and Over and Over again?
Here's something to think about: If the game had DC'd when Bomber was calling down a manner mule in the game vs. MKP, would you have given the win to Bomber?
The reality is, regardless of what you say, the finals will always have that looming question mark for how authentic it was. Because there's no doubt that STQ was playing very nervously after the call. Smart thing would've been to give Parting a game, make it BO3 or just give him the damn game and moved on. Now when people say Prime won GSTL S1 you'll always have someone say "but... you know the DC....". And no matter what you argue against it, that will never go away. In fact in the LR, many people called the series over when the regame was announced.
I personally think DJ Wheat and Incontrol jinxed it. They just called it in the latest SOTG that this scenario will happen and here we have it! And I also think they made a right point saying if there is a slight chance of winning the game by the player whos behind it has to be the regame. For me it seems the only right decision to make after watching the vod like 6 times now
The only way to really determine who has the right of it is, I think, to drop the MKP fans and the PartinG fans into a closed arena, with a scattering of weapons at the middle, and then let them fight to the death. Whoever is still alive, is right.
Seriously, though, it's a silly argument to get into - With these two players, it could still have gone either way at the time of the DC, even though it appeared that PartinG had the better of that engagement. We don't, and can't, know how the rest of the game would have played out. The players didn't have a say in the decision - it was up to the GOM referees, and they decided the way they did. I assure you that Mr. Chae probably spoke with Mr. Browder quite... emphatically... about the DC at that time, and probably will again.
Best part of the DC? The guy with the "Dustin Browder is here, get your pitchforks" sign.
On April 08 2012 22:50 DidYuhim wrote: Even without any forward pylons, PartinG had his warp-ins ready and he was 40 army supply ahead. Ye, certainly MarineKing is a good player, but I don't think it was doable. Even if MarineKing fends off that attack, he will have to fend off double supply of protoss army with terran army. It's just a clear "no".
PartinG's army was scattered, not all in one place, his HT where at home and it would have taken an eternity to cross the map. PartinG's Warp Prism was out of position in MKP's base, ready to be sniped by vikings (5 of them with upgrades 1 shot WPs). Even if the it wasn't out of position he didn't have enough stalkers at the front line to defend the WP if MKP wanted to snipe it.
Lastly PartinG was forced to go up a choke, into a ramp, defended and repaired by SCV's plus his army about to pop. And lastly PartinG didn't have neither the resources or the warp ins to use the prism right away.
MKP's odds where much, much better then people make them out to be. I'm not saying he would have won, but it isn't totally inconceivable either, so the rematch was justified.
On April 08 2012 23:05 An2quamaraN wrote: People forget that there was a warp prism in MKP's main. Therefore everything that would have popped out from those barracks would have died. There was no reinforcments of MKP to speak of.
people also forget there are 6 vikings that could've easily taken out the warp prism and that parting at the time of the screenshot only has 200/500, and probably wouldn't warp in a ton of ht's in the opponent's base with no energy to storm also wouldn't warp in 2 zealots to derp around whereas mkp has a ton of barracks other than the 3 forward barracks.
Can people stop re-introducing the same arguments Over and Over and Over again?
Most of those vikings were close to the 3 forward rax and were not in range of the warp prism. They were also being shot at by stalkers when MKP dropped. MKP had 21 food in production and that's counting whatever he was making in the rax Parting was camping, so no huge reinforcement was about to happen.
It wasn't a clear cut 100% loss for MKP but i feel like some people here exaggerate MKPs production or ignore some of the more subtle things Parting had in his favor.
are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
On April 08 2012 23:34 Gamegene wrote: are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
How about you read all our arguments and re-asses the situation, because your statement is flawed.
PartinG's army was scattered all over the place, his warp in cycles used, his money low, his warp prism out of place and ready to be sniped, and he needed to attack up a walled of ramp, defended and repaired by SCVs and MKP's army about to come out.
Not saying MKP clearly had a win, nor that PartinG didn't have an advantage, but it wasn't a clear victory, many, many things could have gone wrong for him if he attacked up that ramp, the refs made a good call to remake.
On April 08 2012 23:34 Gamegene wrote: are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
How about you read all our arguments and re-asses the situation, because your statement is flawed.
PartinG's army was scattered all over the place, his warp in cycles used, his money low, his warp prism out of place and ready to be sniped, and he needed to attack up a walled of ramp, defended and repaired by SCVs and MKP's army about to come out.
Not saying MKP clearly had a win, nor that PartinG didn't have an advantage, but it wasn't a clear victory, many, many things could have gone wrong for him if he attacked up that ramp, the refs made a good call to remake.
Parting was camping three of the raxes, MKP had no medivacs and he would get sub 20 food reinforcements the next round. Parting didn't have to a-move up the ramp for the game to be considered very much in his favor. Anyone with a brain would see that in a minute or two Parting would have been able to max out with a great army composition while MKP was hurting especially after losing valuable production potential in the three baracks he made outside his base. Parting was uncontested, had more regular units AND several HT's with energy against a terran that just lost production from three barracks with techlabs AND had no army left.
On April 08 2012 23:34 Gamegene wrote: are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
How about you read all our arguments and re-asses the situation, because your statement is flawed.
PartinG's army was scattered all over the place, his warp in cycles used, his money low, his warp prism out of place and ready to be sniped, and he needed to attack up a walled of ramp, defended and repaired by SCVs and MKP's army about to come out.
Not saying MKP clearly had a win, nor that PartinG didn't have an advantage, but it wasn't a clear victory, many, many things could have gone wrong for him if he attacked up that ramp, the refs made a good call to remake.
Though wouldn't MKP's army have been scattered as well? I'm saying this particularly because I don't know where all of those produced units are being trained from on the map. Couldn't it have been possible for Parting to kill some of those units that came out? The true numbers of units that MKP had might have been skewed then of what he really should have had. Though again, I'm only saying this because I have no idea where all of these units are being trained from on the map.
On April 08 2012 23:34 Gamegene wrote: are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
How about you read all our arguments and re-asses the situation, because your statement is flawed.
PartinG's army was scattered all over the place, his warp in cycles used, his money low, his warp prism out of place and ready to be sniped, and he needed to attack up a walled of ramp, defended and repaired by SCVs and MKP's army about to come out.
Not saying MKP clearly had a win, nor that PartinG didn't have an advantage, but it wasn't a clear victory, many, many things could have gone wrong for him if he attacked up that ramp, the refs made a good call to remake.
Though wouldn't MKP's army have been scattered as well? I'm saying this particularly because I don't know where all of those produced units are being trained from on the map. Couldn't it have been possible for Parting to kill some of those units that came out? The true numbers of units that MKP had might have been skewed then of what he really should have had. Though again, I'm only saying this because I have no idea where all of these units are being trained from on the map.
MKP had 110 total food whereas 89 of that was in SCVs, a few vikings, and a few marauders. So his reinforcement potential was, at max, 21 and that's counting the fact that those forces were spread out and some were even built in the rax Parting was attacking.
MKP could have lifted and re-used the Rax, PartinG had only 4 stalkers to finish them off.
The HT with energy where 1 minute to 1 minute and a half away from getting to the battle, enough time to reinforce. Also, judging from his posture PartinG was going in very aggressive, he had units moving across the map, he smelled blood and was going for the kill.
Also, MKP had 1300 gas, and 4 Starports, he could have re-made the medivacs in 2 production cycles.
On April 08 2012 23:40 winthrop wrote: MKP is not a normal Terran He is the one will bring you miracle and bring the hope to terran alliance.
The only way for that game to continue for more then 4 minutes would have been MKP flying his wrax in a corner and waiting for Parting to build a void ray... Also lol at the terran alliance needing hope when they are the winningest race in sc2 history.
The fact that none of the 3 following games would have even happened without the disconnect (lets be honest here MKP is not flash enough to comeback from that and parting is way too good to fuck that up) will taint Prime winning their first GSTL for the entire history of esports.
On April 08 2012 23:53 Destructicon wrote: MKP could have lifted and re-used the Rax, PartinG had only 4 stalkers to finish them off.
The HT with energy where 1 minute to 1 minute and a half away from getting to the battle, enough time to reinforce. Also, judging from his posture PartinG was going in very aggressive, he had units moving across the map, he smelled blood and was going for the kill.
Also, MKP had 1300 gas, and 4 Starports, he could have re-made the medivacs in 2 production cycles.
PartinG was ahead, but not decisively so.
MKP also had 500 minerals so it's either build army or medivacs though. The fact is that his 2nd round of reinforcements were next to nothing and floating barracks moving them and losing the addons means that he loses alot more than a production cycle. Meanwhile Parting had taken 0 damage at home and could easily max out with HT's, chargelots, and Archons alot quicker. At least that's what every single terran says when they talk about TvP being hard, that the protoss can reinforce much faster than the terran.
On April 08 2012 23:34 Gamegene wrote: are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
How about you read all our arguments and re-asses the situation, because your statement is flawed.
PartinG's army was scattered all over the place, his warp in cycles used, his money low, his warp prism out of place and ready to be sniped, and he needed to attack up a walled of ramp, defended and repaired by SCVs and MKP's army about to come out.
Not saying MKP clearly had a win, nor that PartinG didn't have an advantage, but it wasn't a clear victory, many, many things could have gone wrong for him if he attacked up that ramp, the refs made a good call to remake.
Though wouldn't MKP's army have been scattered as well? I'm saying this particularly because I don't know where all of those produced units are being trained from on the map. Couldn't it have been possible for Parting to kill some of those units that came out? The true numbers of units that MKP had might have been skewed then of what he really should have had. Though again, I'm only saying this because I have no idea where all of these units are being trained from on the map.
MarineKing had three forward barracks for quick reinforcements that were being targeted. Aside from that all his production and most of his army was in his base or coming back to his base rather quickly.
If Parting had tried to force the ramp and end it right there, it would have been defendable. If Parting had backed of and maxed out before going it would have been difficult for MarineKing but he could have slowly clawed his way back with very very good engagements.
If Parting had decided to go for MarineKing's mining bases right after, he basically could have won right there but from when the game dropped it didn't seem like he was about to go do that. He looked like he was moving towards MarineKing's wall'd off main very slowly.
Even so, 9 out of 10 times Parting would probably win from that position. I don't know if that's enough to give him the win in such an important match though.
On April 08 2012 23:34 Gamegene wrote: are people insane? parting was about 10 seconds away from forcing the manner mules out of MKP unless he was going to make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fuck up.
How about you read all our arguments and re-asses the situation, because your statement is flawed.
PartinG's army was scattered all over the place, his warp in cycles used, his money low, his warp prism out of place and ready to be sniped, and he needed to attack up a walled of ramp, defended and repaired by SCVs and MKP's army about to come out.
Not saying MKP clearly had a win, nor that PartinG didn't have an advantage, but it wasn't a clear victory, many, many things could have gone wrong for him if he attacked up that ramp, the refs made a good call to remake.
Though wouldn't MKP's army have been scattered as well? I'm saying this particularly because I don't know where all of those produced units are being trained from on the map. Couldn't it have been possible for Parting to kill some of those units that came out? The true numbers of units that MKP had might have been skewed then of what he really should have had. Though again, I'm only saying this because I have no idea where all of these units are being trained from on the map.
MKP had 110 total food whereas 89 of that was in SCVs, a few vikings, and a few marauders. So his reinforcement potential was, at max, 21 and that's counting the fact that those forces were spread out and some were even built in the rax Parting was attacking.
Yeah, this is inaccurate too. He had 71 SCVs and two full mining bases. He had 3 marauders and 6 Vikings. If Parting had tried to force the ramp, MarineKing may have stood a chance.
Yea, it'd be very hard to argue that MKP was in a position to recover. IIRC, Parting's WP was in the main/over rax (I could be completely off, I can't tell from the pictures and my memory is prone to playing tricks on me). Assuming the WP was in some position to safely go pylon mode; I feel that Parting was 1 warpin cycle away from completely overrunning MKP's base due to his high gateway count. However, if there is a player who makes miracle comebacks. it's MKP. I can't help but remember his game against SaSe in MLG. He came out on top of situations I've seen other pros crumble to consistently. The supplies don't look too far off, but again, I can't see too well from the pic.
MKP still had an income though, 5 Orbitals worth of MULEs and 71 SCV's still mining. Yes at that very moment he only had 500, but in 15 seconds he would have had another 500 minerals, in 1 min he would have had 2k or more thanks to the MULEs.
On April 08 2012 23:58 SupLilSon wrote: Yea, it'd be very hard to argue that MKP was in a position to recover. IIRC, Parting's WP was in the main/over rax (I could be completely off, I can't tell from the pictures and my memory is prone to playing tricks on me). Assuming the WP was in some position to safely go pylon mode; I feel that Parting was 1 warpin cycle away from completely overrunning MKP's base due to his high gateway count. However, if there is a player who makes miracle comebacks. it's MKP. I can't help but remember his game against SaSe in MLG. He came out on top of situations I've seen other pros crumble to consistently. The supplies don't look too far off, but again, I can't see too well from the pic.
Warp Prism was sitting over MarineKing's production, Parting didn't have money to warp in a large set immediately and of MarineKing's small remaining army, most of it was Vikings so the Warp Prism would have gotten sniped very quickly.
On April 08 2012 23:59 Destructicon wrote: MKP still had an income though, 5 Orbitals worth of MULEs and 71 SCV's still mining. Yes at that very moment he only had 500, but in 15 seconds he would have had another 500 minerals, in 1 min he would have had 2k or more thanks to the MULEs.
Yeah he could probably get money for units but he still can't reinforce quicker. The game was very even when MKP was producing out of his three rax with techlabs, he couldn't here AND he had a much smaller army to begin with...
On April 08 2012 23:58 SupLilSon wrote: Yea, it'd be very hard to argue that MKP was in a position to recover. IIRC, Parting's WP was in the main/over rax (I could be completely off, I can't tell from the pictures and my memory is prone to playing tricks on me). Assuming the WP was in some position to safely go pylon mode; I feel that Parting was 1 warpin cycle away from completely overrunning MKP's base due to his high gateway count. However, if there is a player who makes miracle comebacks. it's MKP. I can't help but remember his game against SaSe in MLG. He came out on top of situations I've seen other pros crumble to consistently. The supplies don't look too far off, but again, I can't see too well from the pic.
Warp Prism was sitting over MarineKing's production, Parting didn't have money to warp in a large set immediately and of MarineKing's small remaining army, most of it was Vikings so the Warp Prism would have gotten sniped very quickly.
MKP had 3 vikings when the game dropped and they were being shot at by stalkers. And the warp prism was in the main while the vikings were at the forward 3 raxes, so quite a bit to fly to catch the prism.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
How is he supposed to do a drop with no medivacs and a supply deficit of 30+? If he dedicated one medivac full of marines he surely would not be able to hold at home.
the fact that parting had a large supply lead and MKP had 0 medivacs (parting had 8 high templars IIRC at least somewhere on the map makes it look really really really good for Parting
sure he didnt have a bank of money but its not like he had a poor economy (he didnt at all) and Parting is most definitely not the type of player to the blow the game at that point in the game
Parting wins that game 98% of the time by that point.
not that it was necessarily a bad decision to regame but hopefully it sparks some developments for tournament LAN or some kind of reconnect feature
Also, people say PartinG had zealots and HTs to finish MKP off, but as we have seen from that game as well as the regame, MKP's insane micro made him almost immune to this composition. Only reason PartinG was ahead at that point was that he had three aoe units (HT, Archon, Colossi) during the big fight in the middle, and this composition was gone by the time when mkp got dc'd. So given MKP's micro at the time, finishing him off with only pure zealots and HTs might be questionable.
I think the discussion is kind of being aimed in the wrong direction. I think most people can agree that Parting was at a huge advantage, and was probably going to win (except the op apparently). There's only a little controversy on that. The big controversy is when should the referee declare wins, and where they should declare rematches. Even if you say parting is going to win that 95% of the time, do you think that's enough to give him the game? Personally, I say yes. But there doesn't seem to be a solid answer in the community, and because of that I highly doubt this will be the last time such an event happens.
Had that been Huk or stephano who dc'd in that circumstance, would the community be in the same perspective? Maybe, maybe not, but I definitely think the rules and standards on when the games should be called should be a bit clearer.
very biased op, i don't think you should take any part when explaining what you talking about
i support the regame, i mean, what to do in this horrible situation? everything would be bad, we can just blame blizzard and be glad they gave the most neutral decision
On April 09 2012 00:05 mrlie3 wrote: Also, people say PartinG had zealots and HTs to finish MKP off, but as we have seen from that game as well as the regame, MKP's insane micro made him almost immune to this composition. Only reason PartinG was ahead at that point was that he had three aoe units (HT, Archon, Colossi) during the big fight in the middle, and this composition was gone by the time when mkp got dc'd. So given MKP's micro at the time, finishing him off with only pure zealots and HTs might be questionable.
First of all: Parting was only ahead because he used aoe units in, what i consider, the most common unit composition in TvP? What does that even mean?
MKP had medivacs, vikings, and ghosts in that fight and had practically none left after the engagement. He also had three more rax for marauder production that he was either going to lose or have to slowly fly over to his main while Parting's economy and production was fully intact.
Parting didn't need to just crush MKP right away but just poke while reinforcing and then just rolling MKP with faster reinforcements due to chrono'ed warpgates and the fact that MKP probably would have to pull workers to even survive at all.
I will never aknowledge Prime as winning this GSTL. They might have been able to win even if MKP got a default loss there but I don't care. This GSTL is null and void for me. I will erase this GSTL from my memory not because im butthurt over the decision but because the score and result was influenced dramaticly by a outside source(not players/game). The disconnect killed the whole atmostfere and intensity the GSTL had. After the disconnect I only watched the re-game and mkp vs bomber. I just turned it off after that since I just didn't care anymore.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
This seems more or less impossible if only because he didn't have any medivacs remaining and Parting was clearly going to force an engagement. MKP was going to have to have his next cycle of medivacs (probably his next two cycles) with his main army or it would be a complete walkover, so drops weren't coming for a while.
The only scenario where MKP would win would be Parting completely throwing the game, as far as I can tell. And that's always possible in any disconnect, so you might as well just regame everything then.
Parting had advantage. That is clear. No one is doubting that fact, not even the ref.
But before a player enters a tournament, he/she agrees to accept decisions made by referees of the tournament. According to the koeran cast of GSTL the ref made his decison for regame because he saw that the gateway waprin was used in Parting's main. There were also no proxy pylon to supplement the army faster.
Is that the correct decision? Everyone has a different opinion. But the fact is it is a decision made by ref and it is something the players and the viewers must accept. Do not take it out on the players, GSL, or the refs. Blame the internet connection issues, and leave it at that. The players, refs, and the organization did their best to accomodate the situation.
So, marineking has 110 supply in the picture. Withdraw from that the supply of 3 marauders, 6 vikings and 71 scvs: 110 - 89 supply = 21 supply. That is his current production. At most, mkp is building 10 maraudes and a marine. 2 of those marauders and the marine are being produced in the forward raxes and are dead on arrival (if they pop out at all).
When mkp's production hits, he will at best have 10 marauders/6 marauders&8 marines and 6 vikings (32food) against the 60 food of army that parting has right now, plus at least 1500/1000 resources put into warpins. Thats another 20-30 supply of cost effective army.
You don't understand TvP very well if you think that fighting 32 supply vs 80 supply, without medivacs, against a late game P army is in any way a winnable situation. MKP is done no matter what he did. He wasn't able to break parting when he was 170 vs 135 food and at the point of the lag-out, he was completely dead.
Oh, and to see a demonstration of how such a fight between P and T works out, go watch the final fight between parting and maru. Is maru in a winnable position on top of his ramp?
On April 09 2012 00:19 Str1keFreedom wrote: Parting had advantage. That is clear. No one is doubting that fact, not even the ref.
But before a player enters a tournament, he/she agrees to accept decisions made by referees of the tournament. According to the koeran cast of GSTL the ref made his decison for regame because he saw that the gateway waprin was used in Parting's main. There were also no proxy pylon to supplement the army faster.
Is that the correct decision? Everyone has a different opinion. But the fact is it is a decision made by ref and it is something the players and the viewers must accept. Do not take it out on the players, GSL, or the refs. Blame the internet connection issues, and leave it at that. The players, refs, and the organization did their best to accomodate the situation.
I agree that it's up to the ref to judge and maybe they just prefer rematches unless one player doubles or triples the supply of the other. I'm mostly arguing with people that exaggerate MKP's chances in that game.
On April 09 2012 00:19 Str1keFreedom wrote: Parting had advantage. That is clear. No one is doubting that fact, not even the ref.
But before a player enters a tournament, he/she agrees to accept decisions made by referees of the tournament. According to the koeran cast of GSTL the ref made his decison for regame because he saw that the gateway waprin was used in Parting's main. There were also no proxy pylon to supplement the army faster.
Is that the correct decision? Everyone has a different opinion. But the fact is it is a decision made by ref and it is something the players and the viewers must accept. Do not take it out on the players, GSL, or the refs. Blame the internet connection issues, and leave it at that. The players, refs, and the organization did their best to accomodate the situation.
Just because you think the ref did his best does not mean he could not have made the incorrect decision. The folks responsible for the Internet may have done their best too. There is always a chance that things will stop working and then the ref is responsible for making the correct decision. If he gave the game to MKP would we still not have any right to dispute it? If GOMTV is gonna continue to ruin every competition that has equipment failure then people ought to know.
Here's a question to all those arguing that Parting had it won - if the MKP vs Bomber game had lagged out at the moment MKP was sieged at Bomber's natural, with Bomber's orbital lifted off and burning, would you have argued that MKP should be given the win? Of course you would, to deny it would be dishonest. However, despite all appearances Bomber came back and had a VERY legitimate shot at winning the game. Moreover, there were many back and forths in the MKP vs Parting game, and at any one of those points if the game had lagged out, people would probably have wanted it to be called for the player APPEARING to be at a disadvantage.
To claim that you know for certain that Parting had it won is simply unintelligent. Without being able to watch the replay, you don't know 1) how many units mkp had in production, 2) how close mkp's units in production were to finishing, 3) where mkp's rax were rallied, and how good he would be at pooling units, 4) the location of parting's nearest pylon, 5) how likely the warp prism was to get killed by vikes, 6) the saturation of each player's mining bases, 7) how many mules mkp had and thus how insanely high his mineral income may have been, or 8) the location of all parting's units (did he have 4 or 5 zealots sitting back at home from having dealt with a drop 5 mins earlier?).
Without having ANY of the above information, you would claim that you know for CERTAIN that Parting had it won? Smarten up.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
This seems more or less impossible if only because he didn't have any medivacs remaining and Parting was clearly going to force an engagement. MKP was going to have to have his next cycle of medivacs (probably his next two cycles) with his main army or it would be a complete walkover, so drops weren't coming for a while.
The only scenario where MKP would win would be Parting completely throwing the game, as far as I can tell. And that's always possible in any disconnect, so you might as well just regame everything then.
he had 4 starports, instant medivac replenish won't be that unusual. If MKP grouped his reinforcements and put himself between his buildings with scvs in front on hold position (keep in mind MKP had a superior economy, he can afford to lose afew scvs, esp the ones in his main base), I think he might have held it. The HT's weren't at the battle, and his production wasn't being camped save the 3 rax outside his base. MKP had 6 vikings to deal with the warp prism, keep in mind that the stalkers were outside the base while the warp prism was over the production when MKP dced, I think the vikings could have taken it out (even if they didn't, Parting's warp gates were on cooldown and Parting only had 200 minerals). Either way, Parting would have a huge lead, but that's not enough to simply give Parting the win.
On April 09 2012 00:39 JinDesu wrote: Did Parting have a 4th in game 1? I know he built a 4th in game 2 a short bit after MKPs, but did he even have 4th in game 1?
On April 09 2012 00:39 JinDesu wrote: Did Parting have a 4th in game 1? I know he built a 4th in game 2 a short bit after MKPs, but did he even have 4th in game 1?
If you look at the picture, you can see that he has a fifth up and running.. ^^
On April 09 2012 00:39 JinDesu wrote: Did Parting have a 4th in game 1? I know he built a 4th in game 2 a short bit after MKPs, but did he even have 4th in game 1?
If you look at the picture, you can see that he has a fifth up and running.. ^^
MKP had 40 supply leads too in that game, yet Parting came back. It was back and forth all game long. It was too close to have been called a win. Ofc Parting had a lead, but as long as the other player still has a reasonable chance to come back, it should always be a regame.
On April 09 2012 00:19 Str1keFreedom wrote: Parting had advantage. That is clear. No one is doubting that fact, not even the ref.
But before a player enters a tournament, he/she agrees to accept decisions made by referees of the tournament. According to the koeran cast of GSTL the ref made his decison for regame because he saw that the gateway waprin was used in Parting's main. There were also no proxy pylon to supplement the army faster.
Is that the correct decision? Everyone has a different opinion. But the fact is it is a decision made by ref and it is something the players and the viewers must accept. Do not take it out on the players, GSL, or the refs. Blame the internet connection issues, and leave it at that. The players, refs, and the organization did their best to accomodate the situation.
Just because you think the ref did his best does not mean he could not have made the incorrect decision. The folks responsible for the Internet may have done their best too. There is always a chance that things will stop working and then the ref is responsible for making the correct decision. If he gave the game to MKP would we still not have any right to dispute it? If GOMTV is gonna continue to ruin every competition that has equipment failure then people ought to know.
Yes I agree that GomTV has to make better decision and in order to do so it is the spectator's to say what is right or wrong about the decision. There is no doubt about that.
But the problem is that the people are insulting the players, ref, and the organization about the event that occured. No one could be satisfied with any decision made last night. These posts prove that fact. There are people who side with MKP, and there are people who side with Parting. The ref has to bear that burden when he makes that decision. It is not like MKP or Prime paid the ref to make the decision favoring their team. In these situations the ref has the right to make the decision, and that decision is made with considerations of many things. I mean the decision last night took about 30 mins, and clearly shows it was not a decision made without any thoughts. People need to stop butchering the issue.
Again it is the right of the specator to express their concerns about the decisions for the future events. But you should not be insulting the ones involved because they did what they thought was the best action given their circumstances.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
This seems more or less impossible if only because he didn't have any medivacs remaining and Parting was clearly going to force an engagement. MKP was going to have to have his next cycle of medivacs (probably his next two cycles) with his main army or it would be a complete walkover, so drops weren't coming for a while.
The only scenario where MKP would win would be Parting completely throwing the game, as far as I can tell. And that's always possible in any disconnect, so you might as well just regame everything then.
he had 4 starports, instant medivac replenish won't be that unusual. If MKP grouped his reinforcements and put himself between his buildings with scvs in front on hold position (keep in mind MKP had a superior economy, he can afford to lose afew scvs, esp the ones in his main base), I think he might have held it. The HT's weren't at the battle, and his production wasn't being camped save the 3 rax outside his base. MKP had 6 vikings to deal with the warp prism, keep in mind that the stalkers were outside the base while the warp prism was over the production when MKP dced, I think the vikings could have taken it out (even if they didn't, Parting's warp gates were on cooldown and Parting only had 200 minerals). Either way, Parting would have a huge lead, but that's not enough to simply give Parting the win.
What me and many are arguing is that in the time MKP got a few medivacs up Parting would be maxed with a better composition due to having no pressure put on him and the fact that he had 8 HT's ready even before MKP dropped.
The fighting army MKP did have at the DC didn't even mean much as the 6 vikings do nothing against a heavy gateway push with HT+archon, so ultimately it was 3 marauders versus 16 zealots, 6 stalkers and 8 HT's, with MKP just losing production potential from three barracks with techlabs while Parting had the exact same production capability as before and full knowledge that he can't be hurt for a long time.
And to the people saying that Parting was down in supply, sure he was but he did not lose production capability nor was he down to the equivalent of 3 stalkers at any time in the match.
On April 09 2012 00:19 Str1keFreedom wrote: Parting had advantage. That is clear. No one is doubting that fact, not even the ref.
But before a player enters a tournament, he/she agrees to accept decisions made by referees of the tournament. According to the koeran cast of GSTL the ref made his decison for regame because he saw that the gateway waprin was used in Parting's main. There were also no proxy pylon to supplement the army faster.
Is that the correct decision? Everyone has a different opinion. But the fact is it is a decision made by ref and it is something the players and the viewers must accept. Do not take it out on the players, GSL, or the refs. Blame the internet connection issues, and leave it at that. The players, refs, and the organization did their best to accomodate the situation.
Just because you think the ref did his best does not mean he could not have made the incorrect decision. The folks responsible for the Internet may have done their best too. There is always a chance that things will stop working and then the ref is responsible for making the correct decision. If he gave the game to MKP would we still not have any right to dispute it? If GOMTV is gonna continue to ruin every competition that has equipment failure then people ought to know.
Yes I agree that GomTV has to make better decision and in order to do so it is the spectator's to say what is right or wrong about the decision. There is no doubt about that.
I would NOT trust emotionally charged spectators who have favourites to have any say in the decision. To add, most of them don`t have high enough understanding of the game.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
This seems more or less impossible if only because he didn't have any medivacs remaining and Parting was clearly going to force an engagement. MKP was going to have to have his next cycle of medivacs (probably his next two cycles) with his main army or it would be a complete walkover, so drops weren't coming for a while.
The only scenario where MKP would win would be Parting completely throwing the game, as far as I can tell. And that's always possible in any disconnect, so you might as well just regame everything then.
he had 4 starports, instant medivac replenish won't be that unusual. If MKP grouped his reinforcements and put himself between his buildings with scvs in front on hold position (keep in mind MKP had a superior economy, he can afford to lose afew scvs, esp the ones in his main base), I think he might have held it. The HT's weren't at the battle, and his production wasn't being camped save the 3 rax outside his base. MKP had 6 vikings to deal with the warp prism, keep in mind that the stalkers were outside the base while the warp prism was over the production when MKP dced, I think the vikings could have taken it out (even if they didn't, Parting's warp gates were on cooldown and Parting only had 200 minerals). Either way, Parting would have a huge lead, but that's not enough to simply give Parting the win.
What me and many are arguing is that in the time MKP got a few medivacs up Parting would be maxed with a better composition due to having no pressure put on him and the fact that he had 8 HT's ready even before MKP dropped.
The fighting army MKP did have at the DC didn't even mean much as the 6 vikings do nothing against a heavy gateway push with HT+archon, so ultimately it was 3 marauders versus 16 zealots, 6 stalkers and 8 HT's, with MKP just losing production potential from three barracks with techlabs while Parting had the exact same production capability as before and full knowledge that he can't be hurt for a long time.
Funny how people are exaggerating their math left and right. Just be accurate, it's not that hard. Clearly it wasn't 3 marauders vs all of Parting's army. It's been established many times that Parting didn't have his entire army at MKP's doorstep to fight his "3 marauders". You may still feel that Parting had a clear advantage even if your math was fixed, but that doesn't mean you should exaggerate your point. MKP would have more units out before he had to engage the entirety of Parting's army, unless Protoss has an ability to teleport units that have already been warped in that I'm not aware of.
Blizzard will add new mechanic to the game. When you will have an enemy into your base and you will pull out your internet cable you will get a win. Told ya, guys, this will go to ladder.
Okay, not really. Sorry, it was just obligatory.
Where does this come that PartinG had his warpgates on cooldown? He moved his prism forward just because he had no cooldown on his WG's. And even with prism out and (how most of people here imply) most of PartinG's army was in his base. Imagine anything that produces out of 12 rax fighting against army that built out of 15 gates, with 8 HT's included. He dropped most of his mules like 1 minute ago, when 2 colossi were trashing all his army, where he was losing pretty much everything and making a quick transition.
MKP's units were pretty far behind in barracks: with the last round of barracks he managed to finally snipe those two colossi, and I don't really think that PartinG's unit control would be any inferior to MKP's, if you watch at the screenshots, you may as well see that PartinG had 24 units at his "1". It is sort of illogical to "asasasasasasasaasasas" with units that are miles behind on the map.
Well, MarineKing's fanbase presents itself the way they usually do. They will find whatever reasons just to see their favorite win.
Can't believe they gave MKP a regame. When does a Terran ever win when their main force has been wiped out with Protoss still having 18 Zealots, 6/8 HTs, 6 stalkers, and a Warp Prism for some simple harass against 3 Marauders and 6 useless Vikings. What a freaking joke. The Zealots alone could nearly kill all of MKP's next round of units in production.
Stopped watching after Bomber lost to MKP. Was too distgusted with the outcomes and couldn't enjoy watching any longer.
Blizzard will add new mechanic to the game. When you will have an enemy into your base and you will pull out your internet cable you will get a win. Told ya, guys, this will go to ladder.
Okay, not really. Sorry, it was just obligatory.
Where does this come that PartinG had his warpgates on cooldown? He moved his prism forward just because he had no cooldown on his WG's. And even with prism out and (how most of people here imply) most of PartinG's army was in his base. Imagine anything that produces out of 12 rax fighting against army that built out of 15 gates, with 8 HT's included. He dropped most of his mules like 1 minute ago, when 2 colossi were trashing all his army, where he was losing pretty much everything and making a quick transition.
MKP's units were pretty far behind in barracks: with the last round of barracks he managed to finally snipe those two colossi, and I don't really think that PartinG's unit control would be any inferior to MKP's, if you watch at the screenshots, you may as well see that PartinG had 24 units at his "1". It is sort of illogical to "asasasasasasasaasasas" with units that are miles behind on the map.
Well, MarineKing's fanbase presents itself the way they usually do. They will find whatever reasons just to see their favorite win.
On the Korean cast it was stated that the ref saw that Parting had just done a warp-in round in his own base.
1) If you look at the vods throughout, when the observer selected MKP's units, you can see in his hotkey, he has like 17 raxes, so losing 3 raxes is really nothing. Assuming he stop producing Vikings because there's no collosus, 4 starports should get him 5 medivacs soon.
2) Even though Parting seemed to have really superior army (16 zealots, 8 stalkers, 8 HTs), at the time of the dc, thank to the obersever 1 second before the dc, he let us see the total army in the front hitting the raxes, which only 9 zealots and 6 stalkers. And also literally 1 second before the dc, we can see Parting's HTs number increase from 1 to 8, which means he just warp in fresh HT from base, which will not contribute to the fight for the next 2 minutes or so. Parting also had units rally up to the fight, we don't know how much though. Parting had no splash units (sure he can make archon, but they're not gonna be in the fight for the next minutes or so) The units he has at that time only gateway units.
3) Parting was on 2 or 3 bases, not 5 bases, thank to the observer showing his natural completely dried out and probe transferring to the fresh bases.
4) In the downtime Kaldor said MKP has 1,2 rounds of units queuing up in the raxes. MKP also had 71 SCV + mules, which should give him a good income to continue the fight for a while.
5) Warp prism provide no advantage whatsoever because of the vikings.
6) Don't forget the player has imperfect knowledge. Parting, MKP don't know about each other forces, for all we know, Parting might just play safe, retreating after kill 3 raxes, or push up a little bit, but when seeing the sight of marauder + medivac, he will retreat, or he will gonna kill 1 expansion and retreat, or MKP raise the supply depot to hold the push or this or that blah blah.
In my opinion, at that time of the dc, Parting clearly has advantage, but the game will not gonna end in the next 1,2 minutes or so. MKP may have to retreat to the main, MKP may have to pull scvs to hold the gateway units, but there's no way Parting can outright hit all the bases at the same time, win the game with 9 zealots and 6 stalkers against a bunch of bio and medivacs and scv. Parting will have a big advantage after the fight, he might expand more, get max out and push again, but the game is not gonna end in the next 1,2 minutes. It might take another 5 minutes to end the game, and there were too many variable in 5 minutes.
i dont know why people think that making a solid argument for either side is going to change peoples minds.. lol MKP fans are gonna agree and ST fans are gonna disagree. these refs are professional's they know the game a hell of alot better then probably every one here, they had access to the replay (not random screen shots and the incredibly small amount of info gained from watching vods cause lets be honest so much of the relevant information at the time of the d/c was happening off camera.
Why can people take this stance in the whole situation, "holy shit game 1 was awesome sucks that MKP dc'ed but holy shit we are now lucky enough to get a second game of these to amazing players going at it again" i mean come on as fans who we got to see MKP v Parting twice! mirror builds in both games what more could you want as a fan of SC2
MKP wins from crazy situations often enough that I don't think it would have been fair to count him out. Of course it's not really fair to Parting either to have to regame when he was likely at an advantage, but that's SC2 for you.
Valve is really putting Blizzard to shame considering this could never happen in Dota 2. We really really need a way to rejoin games.
I dont agree with the regame...just because regames are stupid. To much controversy in it. Just make it a flat rule that in the event of a dc the player in the lead gets the win. Im not even a parting fan. In fact I think he is a bit overrated but this would at least give people much less to argue about
I think the regame was an ok decision, but the best would be the bo3 decision. But anyways, lets maybe forget about this incident and celebrate the Prime victory
It's obvious blizzard is not going to add lan. they would rather hear thousands of out-cries for it and leave out a very very meaningful feature to competitive starcraft just so they can save some money from people pirating their game (just the way blizzard has become I guess)
But they should at least add a save game feature like in wc3. Whenever someone started lagging you just hit "save game" and then went into your custom game folder and re-hosted it, was so simple and yet so awesome.
I have very little hope that blizzard will even add that though, sometimes I think they release games on purpose with the minimum amount of features to sell the product. Yes I realize their games are top sellers but they have really gone to shit over the last few years, they spend 5+ years creating games and release them with tons of missing features. Chat channels, a bad user interface, no replays with friends, no lan. It's like all blizzard cares about now is releasing with enough to get by and then taking months-years to release simple features that people want.
All in all don't expect blizzard to do anything about this, I lost faith in them along time ago.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
This seems more or less impossible if only because he didn't have any medivacs remaining and Parting was clearly going to force an engagement. MKP was going to have to have his next cycle of medivacs (probably his next two cycles) with his main army or it would be a complete walkover, so drops weren't coming for a while.
The only scenario where MKP would win would be Parting completely throwing the game, as far as I can tell. And that's always possible in any disconnect, so you might as well just regame everything then.
he had 4 starports, instant medivac replenish won't be that unusual. If MKP grouped his reinforcements and put himself between his buildings with scvs in front on hold position (keep in mind MKP had a superior economy, he can afford to lose afew scvs, esp the ones in his main base), I think he might have held it. The HT's weren't at the battle, and his production wasn't being camped save the 3 rax outside his base. MKP had 6 vikings to deal with the warp prism, keep in mind that the stalkers were outside the base while the warp prism was over the production when MKP dced, I think the vikings could have taken it out (even if they didn't, Parting's warp gates were on cooldown and Parting only had 200 minerals). Either way, Parting would have a huge lead, but that's not enough to simply give Parting the win.
What me and many are arguing is that in the time MKP got a few medivacs up Parting would be maxed with a better composition due to having no pressure put on him and the fact that he had 8 HT's ready even before MKP dropped.
The fighting army MKP did have at the DC didn't even mean much as the 6 vikings do nothing against a heavy gateway push with HT+archon, so ultimately it was 3 marauders versus 16 zealots, 6 stalkers and 8 HT's, with MKP just losing production potential from three barracks with techlabs while Parting had the exact same production capability as before and full knowledge that he can't be hurt for a long time.
Funny how people are exaggerating their math left and right. Just be accurate, it's not that hard. Clearly it wasn't 3 marauders vs all of Parting's army. It's been established many times that Parting didn't have his entire army at MKP's doorstep to fight his "3 marauders". You may still feel that Parting had a clear advantage even if your math was fixed, but that doesn't mean you should exaggerate your point. MKP would have more units out before he had to engage the entirety of Parting's army, unless Protoss has an ability to teleport units that have already been warped in that I'm not aware of.
Maybe i was unclear. What i'm saying is that MKP lost production and had little to no army, if the game had continue for just two minutes or so Parting would be maxed with his superior army on MKP's doorstep. If both macro as good as they can protoss still reinforce faster and Parting had a ton more units from the start.
I just don't understand the controversy. If the situation had been reversed, there would have been a regame. There was no bias, they followed their policies. It ended up giving MKP a better chance at victory, but that's just how things go sometimes. He didn't ask for a regame, he just waited for their decision, which they took a long time to come to.
Unless someone is 100% winning with absolute zero chance of failing at the point the game lags out, there is a regame. The timing seems unfortunate for Parting, but it isn't anyone's fault but Bliz really.
On April 09 2012 00:58 psychotics wrote: i dont know why people think that making a solid argument for either side is going to change peoples minds.. lol MKP fans are gonna agree and ST fans are gonna disagree. these refs are professional's they know the game a hell of alot better then probably every one here, they had access to the replay (not random screen shots and the incredibly small amount of info gained from watching vods cause lets be honest so much of the relevant information at the time of the d/c was happening off camera.
Why can people take this stance in the whole situation, "holy shit game 1 was awesome sucks that MKP dc'ed but holy shit we are now lucky enough to get a second game of these to amazing players going at it again" i mean come on as fans who we got to see MKP v Parting twice! mirror builds in both games what more could you want as a fan of SC2
You're seriously trying to argue that it was a good thing that the legitimacy of the competition was compromised by one player losing their hugely advantageous position against the other team's ace, who then went on to get a 3kill to secure the win?
On April 09 2012 00:55 canikizu wrote: 1) If you look at the vods throughout, when the observer selected MKP's units, you can see in his hotkey, he has like 17 raxes, so losing 3 raxes is really nothing. Assuming he stop producing Vikings because there's no collosus, 4 starports should get him 5 medivacs soon.
2) Even though Parting seemed to have really superior army (16 zealots, 8 stalkers, 8 HTs), at the time of the dc, thank to the obersever 1 second before the dc, he let us see the total army in the front hitting the raxes, which only 9 zealots and 6 stalkers. And also literally 1 second before the dc, we can see Parting's HTs number increase from 1 to 8, which means he just warp in fresh HT from base, which will not contribute to the fight for the next 2 minutes or so. Parting also had units rally up to the fight, we don't know how much though. Parting had no splash units (sure he can make archon, but they're not gonna be in the fight for the next minutes or so) The units he has at that time only gateway units.
3) Parting was on 2 or 3 bases, not 5 bases, thank to the observer showing his natural completely dried out and probe transferring to the fresh bases.
4) In the downtime Kaldor said MKP has 1,2 rounds of units queuing up in the raxes. MKP also had 71 SCV + mules, which should give him a good income to continue the fight for a while.
5) Warp prism provide no advantage whatsoever because of the vikings.
6) Don't forget the player has imperfect knowledge. Parting, MKP don't know about each other forces, for all we know, Parting might just play safe, retreating after kill 3 raxes, or push up a little bit, but when seeing the sight of marauder + medivac, he will retreat, or he will gonna kill 1 expansion and retreat, or MKP raise the supply depot to hold the push or this or that blah blah.
In my opinion, at that time of the dc, Parting clearly has advantage, but the game will not gonna end in the next 1,2 minutes or so. MKP may have to retreat to the main, MKP may have to pull scvs to hold the gateway units, but there's no way Parting can outright hit all the bases at the same time, win the game with 9 zealots and 6 stalkers against a bunch of bio and medivacs and scv. Parting will have a big advantage after the fight, he might expand more, get max out and push again, but the game is not gonna end in the next 1,2 minutes. It might take another 5 minutes to end the game, and there were too many variable in 5 minutes.
Obviously bases mine out, and MKP's had aswell. The fact of the matter is that MKP had just finished his 5th base (no gases up), while parting already had his 5th base completely saturated for a few minutes. Anyone who says MKP had the better economy is wrong. And anyone who says we should look at MKP's production should also check out Parting's production. Just because MKP has a lot of barracks doesn't mean Parting doesn't have a lot of Gateways, which are producing stronger forces than those barracks.
Overall, it is sad that MKP dropped and there had to be a decision at all. Because yes somehow MKP could have come back to win that, so you can't say 100% that Parting should get the victory, and therefore you can't award him the win. But giving a regame is much worse for Parting, who had already played 2 games before that. And demoralizing from the point of view that while it would have been awkward to get a win where the other player didn't GG, Parting had a very clear advantage. If the game had continued, no one can argue Parting is ahead by a good margin.
A better solution would have been to turn it into a best of three with Parting up one game. By using a simple regame, every advantage Parting had gained by the end was turned into nothing.
On April 09 2012 00:02 Micket wrote: All it would take for Marineking to come back would be to win 1 engagement, with a drop in the background doing lots of damage. Hardly impossible.
This seems more or less impossible if only because he didn't have any medivacs remaining and Parting was clearly going to force an engagement. MKP was going to have to have his next cycle of medivacs (probably his next two cycles) with his main army or it would be a complete walkover, so drops weren't coming for a while.
The only scenario where MKP would win would be Parting completely throwing the game, as far as I can tell. And that's always possible in any disconnect, so you might as well just regame everything then.
he had 4 starports, instant medivac replenish won't be that unusual. If MKP grouped his reinforcements and put himself between his buildings with scvs in front on hold position (keep in mind MKP had a superior economy, he can afford to lose afew scvs, esp the ones in his main base), I think he might have held it. The HT's weren't at the battle, and his production wasn't being camped save the 3 rax outside his base. MKP had 6 vikings to deal with the warp prism, keep in mind that the stalkers were outside the base while the warp prism was over the production when MKP dced, I think the vikings could have taken it out (even if they didn't, Parting's warp gates were on cooldown and Parting only had 200 minerals). Either way, Parting would have a huge lead, but that's not enough to simply give Parting the win.
What me and many are arguing is that in the time MKP got a few medivacs up Parting would be maxed with a better composition due to having no pressure put on him and the fact that he had 8 HT's ready even before MKP dropped.
The fighting army MKP did have at the DC didn't even mean much as the 6 vikings do nothing against a heavy gateway push with HT+archon, so ultimately it was 3 marauders versus 16 zealots, 6 stalkers and 8 HT's, with MKP just losing production potential from three barracks with techlabs while Parting had the exact same production capability as before and full knowledge that he can't be hurt for a long time.
Funny how people are exaggerating their math left and right. Just be accurate, it's not that hard. Clearly it wasn't 3 marauders vs all of Parting's army. It's been established many times that Parting didn't have his entire army at MKP's doorstep to fight his "3 marauders". You may still feel that Parting had a clear advantage even if your math was fixed, but that doesn't mean you should exaggerate your point. MKP would have more units out before he had to engage the entirety of Parting's army, unless Protoss has an ability to teleport units that have already been warped in that I'm not aware of.
Maybe i was unclear. What i'm saying is that MKP lost production and had little to no army, if the game had continue for just two minutes or so Parting would be maxed with his superior army on MKP's doorstep. If both macro as good as they can protoss still reinforce faster and Parting had a ton more units from the start.
But this is exactly why you need a regame. You don't KNOW for sure what parting is going to do. How do you know he won't keep pushing without remaxing and overextend himself? How do you know if he goes back and extend, MKP wouldn't have be able to gather enough of an army to outmicro Parting's bigger army (like he had been the whole game); the players don't know the same information as we do, you really have to remember that. Also, the players might not play perfectly or as logically as we think; Bomber's game was a perfect example when he could of easily stayed in his base with twice the economy and one base up and won when he maxes out first.
On April 09 2012 01:04 SuperYo1000 wrote: I dont agree with the regame...just because regames are stupid. To much controversy in it. Just make it a flat rule that in the event of a dc the player in the lead gets the win. Im not even a parting fan. In fact I think he is a bit overrated but this would at least give people much less to argue about
It would still be a lot of controversy about it, the only difference would be that in this case Parting would've won. I think a regame was the fairer of two horrible choices. People mention a Bo3 with Parting up 1-0, but GOM can't just announce a rule like that mid tourney and even mid-series. If they could/would, that'd open up for a ton of rigging possibilities. So they go ahead with their rule of "regame if not clear winner", which is only logical.
It's kind of a shame that the DC didn't happen like 5-10 seconds earlier, where both were pretty even, but everything considered I feel MKP was still in this game, though he had blown the lead he had through most of the game and gave it to Parting(by his stubborn I will not make vikings against colossi -.-).
Unless a player has 100% won when the game lags out, there is a regame. That's how it is. That's how it will continue to be. I just don't see where the argument is. Theorycrafting all day about who would have done what if the game came back is retarded. It didn't come back. They regamed. MKP won. Sorry.
On April 09 2012 01:13 Chriscras wrote: So who is going to be the first to meticulously recreate this game based on the VODs in order to see if Marineking could have comeback?
Would be impossible to determine even if we can, because no one can actually play like MKP
Best argument is still that Parting did not have full information as we did, so he might have turned back after getting his warp prism sniped by the two vikings, and given time for MKP to regroup. He still would have been very ahead and likely to win, but one can never expect such type of situation to be given as win without regame in a huge official match. In smaller events they often decide even less one-sided situations by just raw estimation of supply and unit value, but not in a GSTL final.
Honestly, if they just awarded the win to Parting, without finishing the game and without regame, the result would have felt as much compromised as it did otherwise. It was a lose-lose situation for esports the moment this whole fail happened.
Big MKP fan but I was ashamed to see him take that regame. He didn't even look happy with his wins after that. On one hand you have Nony and Desrow saying parting had clearly won, who probably represent the view of master/gm players. But on the other hand then you have this group of people like slasher that maybe don't know as much about high level sc who wanted a regame because they cant tell who was going to win and well it only seems fair to regame in that case. But it just wasn't fair. Parting had won that game, and if even my wife who was watching said, "oh that's bullshit," then the wrong call was made.
the real pity is that this happened in parting vs mkp, which was always were the match was going to be decided. if it had been any other 2 players it wouldnt be such a big deal
The game was not over. I've had bigger comebacks than that on the ladder, I've seen bigger comebacks than that on the GSL, and MKP is certainly the comeback king. Let's please not turn the Esports community into the type that kills off fans and players over the call of a referee.
Oh, and one more thing - LOL at everyone mad at MKP and saying they're not his fans anymroe - it wasn't his decision, and no, not even he could predict an end to that match. It wouldn't have been honest for him to open his mouth and say "I was dead anyway" - he had no idea what Parting's situation was (he doesn't have shared vision) whereas the refs did, who apparently decided that game was too close to call.
Its not about who was in the lead, if the decision was made in favour of either Parting or MKP before the game drew to a conclusion, this would have been unethical and more controversial.
Think of it this way, if you were heads up in a poker match holding 2-7 vs. AK and the internet disconnected, would you not want to play out your hand despite the odds being against you. Or would you simply give it up to your opponent holding AK?
Starcraft is not a game of complete information and absolutes and hence you simply cannot make a ruling based on a certain point in the game.
I really dont think it's worth arguing over at this point. Even if they decided that Parting had won the game decisively, they're not going to take away the title of GSTL champions from Prime now.
up to the point of that last engagement MKP had out performed every other terran in his engagements.
Its mindnumbing how the unit graph is allowed to look like that. Thats the real thing i see in that game. MKP deserved a regame for even standing up to a tossball that long ..
Completely off topic, I was pretty confused when I saw the OP. I was like, "doesn't klogon have more than 14 posts? I'm pretty sure he has a custom icon and stuff..."
On topic, I was listening to the games but not watching them, so I don't know how far behind MKP was.
It seems clear that in general, there needs to be a better rule than "judges decide whether or not to have a regame." As long as we don't have lan, there will continue to be random disconnects in important situations. For one thing, in a regame on the same map each player will already know what the other player originally planned for that map, which skews the regame in favor of more adaptable / flexible players like marineking and against players who like to prepare and practice really specific builds.
Turning one game into a bo3 with one player starting up one game might be a solution for this specific situation, but that's not really practical in BoX series in individual leagues where the players' choices of map in the real series are really important to their overall strategies. Another thing they could do is put the disputed game aside until the end of the series and then replay it if it turns out to be the deciding factor; that would at least alleviate the problem of one player suffering from being worn out more than the other one, but it would also not work in winner's league series like gstl where one of the players could get a multi-kill. They could do something really gimmicky like having one player play the regame with handicap set on 90%, but that would just be goofy because of how it would affect strategies, timing attacks, etc. Overall, I can't really think of a good solution.
The re-game was undeserved.. they probably just fell to the pressure of people raging cos it was "MKP" involved... he didn't deserve the re-game, it probably changed the entire outcome of the series... MKP was behind, warp prism over the base, Parting army had the momentum... If I was Parting, I would have been broken after that game...
On April 09 2012 01:04 SuperYo1000 wrote: I dont agree with the regame...just because regames are stupid. To much controversy in it. Just make it a flat rule that in the event of a dc the player in the lead gets the win. Im not even a parting fan. In fact I think he is a bit overrated but this would at least give people much less to argue about
So if my computer crashes when I'm in the lead (doesn't matter the degree I assume, as there is no measure), in the case of an "accidental" disc, I win anyways?
That's really good, no more 50min games anymore. If you get a BO adv, a wild disc. appears and a win is awarded.
The only way one could have ruled in favour of Parting is if you could have proven over and over again in that very situation under those very circumstances that it would result in a 100 % win for Parting. However you cannot. You could but it would require heavy experimentation and repetition and a consideration of a plethora of in game variables.
I think Day 9 mentioned how this game consists of almost infinite permutations. For all you know, this game was in the hands of MKP.
If you were to subjectively assess a game everytime there was a problem, this system could be abused.
On April 09 2012 00:55 canikizu wrote: 1) If you look at the vods throughout, when the observer selected MKP's units, you can see in his hotkey, he has like 17 raxes, so losing 3 raxes is really nothing. Assuming he stop producing Vikings because there's no collosus, 4 starports should get him 5 medivacs soon.
2) Even though Parting seemed to have really superior army (16 zealots, 8 stalkers, 8 HTs), at the time of the dc, thank to the obersever 1 second before the dc, he let us see the total army in the front hitting the raxes, which only 9 zealots and 6 stalkers. And also literally 1 second before the dc, we can see Parting's HTs number increase from 1 to 8, which means he just warp in fresh HT from base, which will not contribute to the fight for the next 2 minutes or so. Parting also had units rally up to the fight, we don't know how much though. Parting had no splash units (sure he can make archon, but they're not gonna be in the fight for the next minutes or so) The units he has at that time only gateway units.
3) Parting was on 2 or 3 bases, not 5 bases, thank to the observer showing his natural completely dried out and probe transferring to the fresh bases.
4) In the downtime Kaldor said MKP has 1,2 rounds of units queuing up in the raxes. MKP also had 71 SCV + mules, which should give him a good income to continue the fight for a while.
5) Warp prism provide no advantage whatsoever because of the vikings.
6) Don't forget the player has imperfect knowledge. Parting, MKP don't know about each other forces, for all we know, Parting might just play safe, retreating after kill 3 raxes, or push up a little bit, but when seeing the sight of marauder + medivac, he will retreat, or he will gonna kill 1 expansion and retreat, or MKP raise the supply depot to hold the push or this or that blah blah.
In my opinion, at that time of the dc, Parting clearly has advantage, but the game will not gonna end in the next 1,2 minutes or so. MKP may have to retreat to the main, MKP may have to pull scvs to hold the gateway units, but there's no way Parting can outright hit all the bases at the same time, win the game with 9 zealots and 6 stalkers against a bunch of bio and medivacs and scv. Parting will have a big advantage after the fight, he might expand more, get max out and push again, but the game is not gonna end in the next 1,2 minutes. It might take another 5 minutes to end the game, and there were too many variable in 5 minutes.
1) It's easy to tell how much mkp is producing. Just withdraw from his supply his current units - that leaves 21 supply. 5 of that supply is being produced from the barracks where parting has his forward units (you can tell from the lights) and will not make it out/be killed on arrival. That leaves 3 marauders + 6 vikings + 16 supply of army to face up against the 60 food army of parting (and possibly his next round of warp-in depending on the position of the warp-prism, whether he brings a probe or if the spot you can see in the picture ).
2) There is no reason to believe that the units mkp is currently producing will be out before partings units all get to marinekings base. Marineking has ~500 minerals. He is not producing from all his barracks. Most likely, he produced all he was able to at a point (spent all his resources) and since then his minerals has built up. A conservative estimate from 5 bases with 71 scvs is an income of 2000 minerals/m. If mkp has droppes mules, it will be more. What that means is, that it has been 15 ingame seconds since mkp started his production. Marines take 25 ingame seconds to produce. Marauders take 30. Medivacs take 42. Ghosts take 40. Depending on his units, mkp will have to wait another 10-27 ingame seconds before his units are out of his production buildings. At that point, he can start moving them into position them. In other words, there will never be a fight between the collective forces of the units mkp is currently producing and the small forward force of parting, before the rallied units of parting arrives.
3) To fully saturate 3 bases, you need 20+20+20+6+6+6 probes. Yeah, 78. That is all you will ever need (and remember, he might very well still have been mining gas from his natural).
4) Again, it is not hard to tell how many units mkp is producing. Importantly, he is not producing out of all his barracks.
5) Maybe-baby. In any case, it isn't needed.
6) Does parting strike you as a defensive player?
All in all: If parting a-moves, he wins. If parting goes for the economy, he wins. If parting plays defensively till 200/200, he wins. If parting does anything other than get up and leave, he wins.
On April 09 2012 00:24 m0ck wrote: So, marineking has 110 supply in the picture. Withdraw from that the supply of 3 marauders, 6 vikings and 71 scvs: 110 - 89 supply = 21 supply. That is his current production. At most, mkp is building 10 maraudes and a marine. 2 of those marauders and the marine are being produced in the forward raxes and are dead on arrival (if they pop out at all).
When mkp's production hits, he will at best have 10 marauders/6 marauders&8 marines and 6 vikings (32food) against the 60 food of army that parting has right now, plus at least 1500/1000 resources put into warpins. Thats another 20-30 supply of cost effective army.
You don't understand TvP very well if you think that fighting 32 supply vs 80 supply, without medivacs, against a late game P army is in any way a winnable situation. MKP is done no matter what he did. He wasn't able to break parting when he was 170 vs 135 food and at the point of the lag-out, he was completely dead.
Oh, and to see a demonstration of how such a fight between P and T works out, go watch the final fight between parting and maru. Is maru in a winnable position on top of his ramp?
Most intelligent post on this I can see in this thread, I agree completely. I know a lot of people would want to give MarineKing credit for his micro, but it was simply an unwinnable situation.
Parting was surely ahead, but not by as much as that illustrates.
Exactly, just rewatch the game, one snapshot isn't enough to evaluate the state of the game. If you rewatch the game, MKP was certainly not about to type "gg" at all. Regame was deserved, even though PartinG was at an advantage. The shitstorm would have been way worse if MKP had been given a default loss while having 5 bases with 15 barracks and 4 starports, while ahead in upgrades.
Now this situation shouldn't happen in the first place. Just implement auto-save and LAN ffs.
Either choice they made would have been bad. They went with the most fair one. Does it suck? A little bit. But in the end the fans win, hands down, because we got to watch 4 more excellent games.
It's incomplete for lots of reasons, MKP had 17 barracks, he hadn't lost any, just a few add ons. Parting had just done a full warp in at his base so his supply was front loaded, MKP would have a full round out before he could warp in again. Parting was very unlikely to all out attack, he almost always keeps at least 6 HT behind defending his bases. Even with charge MKP can kite those zealots for ages.
On April 09 2012 00:24 m0ck wrote: So, marineking has 110 supply in the picture. Withdraw from that the supply of 3 marauders, 6 vikings and 71 scvs: 110 - 89 supply = 21 supply. That is his current production. At most, mkp is building 10 maraudes and a marine. 2 of those marauders and the marine are being produced in the forward raxes and are dead on arrival (if they pop out at all).
When mkp's production hits, he will at best have 10 marauders/6 marauders&8 marines and 6 vikings (32food) against the 60 food of army that parting has right now, plus at least 1500/1000 resources put into warpins. Thats another 20-30 supply of cost effective army.
You don't understand TvP very well if you think that fighting 32 supply vs 80 supply, without medivacs, against a late game P army is in any way a winnable situation. MKP is done no matter what he did. He wasn't able to break parting when he was 170 vs 135 food and at the point of the lag-out, he was completely dead.
Oh, and to see a demonstration of how such a fight between P and T works out, go watch the final fight between parting and maru. Is maru in a winnable position on top of his ramp?
Most intelligent post on this I can see in this thread, I agree completely. I know a lot of people would want to give MarineKing credit for his micro, but it was simply an unwinnable situation.
First of all, all of PartinG's army supply is not in front of MKP's forward barracks (in the middle of the map almost), most is actually in defense in his bases (as you know, PartinG is a pro at always keeping random templars ready to flank). The measly army he got in front of 3 barracks is not going to kill MKP right there and pushing in the main with it could actually be a mistake, what comes out of the barracks is surely enough to kill a non AoE small Protoss force. Secondly, PartinG does not have at all a 1500/1000 bank to warp in. Just rewatch the game, it's closer than you think it is.
Hey guys I apologize for asking again but I am writing an email to Blizzard reps about this issue and it would really help if I could give a better sense of how many tournaments are effected by major disconnects.
Does anyone remember any other tournaments that this happened in?
On April 09 2012 01:48 Archerofaiur wrote: Hey guys I apologize for asking again but I am writing an email to Blizzard reps about this issue and it would really help if I could give a better sense of how many tournaments are effected by major disconnects.
Does anyone remember any other tournaments that this happened in?
Happened 3-4 times at MLG Columbus Winter the other month at least, has happened at several GSLs, for example MVP vs Dimaga in the World Championship tournament. Has happened at Dreamhack, other MLGs, etc.
There was literally less than 1 % chance MKP could have won, and if I was on startale, I would be very mad of the verdict of a regame, because it was very very unfair. It's a verdict that especially must have been very demoralizing to parting, trust me. He knew that he had already won the game, and having to play again where there is a chance to lose must have been the worst thing in the world to experience.
On April 09 2012 01:29 Royskopp wrote: LAN would bring piracy.
The game was cracked a long time ago and has been available for free since then. Adding LAN would not change the fact.
The fact that it took months for them to crack the game doesnt mean that blizzard is going to just give up and put in a feature that they will only remove once the expansion hits and they try to seal there gaps again. The fact that it took as long as it did is a sign that Blizzard was close to acheiving its goal of not having the game cracked until the expansion hits and if they do that then they effectively prevent piracy.
On April 09 2012 01:29 Royskopp wrote: LAN would bring piracy.
The game was cracked a long time ago and has been available for free since then. Adding LAN would not change the fact.
But the multiplayer hasn't been. That's the important part. Blizzard doesn't care about the story mode. The pirates have been working on trying to get multiplayer to work since the start of beta and they never got it working right.
The refs didn't think long enough about it. While it may be untrue to say that Parting had that game won 100%, the potential solution of extending the match to a best of 3 with Parting starting up 1-0 is a lot more fair to the outcome of the first game than a simple re-game. I think we need better arbitration in matters like this.
Or, more pressingly, we need a better connectivity solution than every action players make being transmitted through the entire internet, traveling thousands of miles before it ends up 20 feet away. It's completely ridiculous, and for the sake of "piracy?" Fuck you, Bobby Kotick. That is all.
On April 09 2012 01:52 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Wow, parting ad 30 supply advantage, 8 HT, Terran has 0 ghost or medivacs, WP, at terran nautral warping stuff in and people say mkp had a chance...
On April 09 2012 00:24 m0ck wrote: So, marineking has 110 supply in the picture. Withdraw from that the supply of 3 marauders, 6 vikings and 71 scvs: 110 - 89 supply = 21 supply. That is his current production. At most, mkp is building 10 maraudes and a marine. 2 of those marauders and the marine are being produced in the forward raxes and are dead on arrival (if they pop out at all).
When mkp's production hits, he will at best have 10 marauders/6 marauders&8 marines and 6 vikings (32food) against the 60 food of army that parting has right now, plus at least 1500/1000 resources put into warpins. Thats another 20-30 supply of cost effective army.
You don't understand TvP very well if you think that fighting 32 supply vs 80 supply, without medivacs, against a late game P army is in any way a winnable situation. MKP is done no matter what he did. He wasn't able to break parting when he was 170 vs 135 food and at the point of the lag-out, he was completely dead.
Oh, and to see a demonstration of how such a fight between P and T works out, go watch the final fight between parting and maru. Is maru in a winnable position on top of his ramp?
Most intelligent post on this I can see in this thread, I agree completely. I know a lot of people would want to give MarineKing credit for his micro, but it was simply an unwinnable situation.
this is exactly how i saw the game....right before it lagged i thought " ok parting won. Now he will warp in a chunk of army and hit marine king with a 170-180 supply to marines 130-140 and force a gg. "
On April 09 2012 00:24 m0ck wrote: So, marineking has 110 supply in the picture. Withdraw from that the supply of 3 marauders, 6 vikings and 71 scvs: 110 - 89 supply = 21 supply. That is his current production. At most, mkp is building 10 maraudes and a marine. 2 of those marauders and the marine are being produced in the forward raxes and are dead on arrival (if they pop out at all).
When mkp's production hits, he will at best have 10 marauders/6 marauders&8 marines and 6 vikings (32food) against the 60 food of army that parting has right now, plus at least 1500/1000 resources put into warpins. Thats another 20-30 supply of cost effective army.
You don't understand TvP very well if you think that fighting 32 supply vs 80 supply, without medivacs, against a late game P army is in any way a winnable situation. MKP is done no matter what he did. He wasn't able to break parting when he was 170 vs 135 food and at the point of the lag-out, he was completely dead.
Oh, and to see a demonstration of how such a fight between P and T works out, go watch the final fight between parting and maru. Is maru in a winnable position on top of his ramp?
Most intelligent post on this I can see in this thread, I agree completely. I know a lot of people would want to give MarineKing credit for his micro, but it was simply an unwinnable situation.
I agree completely. Very good post. A terran without medivacs (he even needed to produce vikings = no more medivacs) vs. a late game Protoss with warp-ins is not a good situation to be in for any terran. And even if PartinG wouldn´t have warped-in instantly, his units by MKP´s base would not have made the situation better for MKP. Also, PartinG´s execution was totally out of this world in that game. Mentally he had the upper hand and MKP probably was in total shock. What does MKP do with 3 marauders and 6 vikings vs. zealots, stalkers and HTs?
Technology failed, PartinG´s run was stopped by forces completely out of his control. A regame is never justified, there simply was no other solution at hand.
The regame lead to a completely pointless game where MKP knew PartinG´s strategy and profitted from it. It almost was the same game played twice. Only now, MKP knew that he had to kill PartinG well before PartinG has templars/storms out, because PartinG simply is too good with templars for MKP to handle.
MKP already had 6 vikings out, he had 4 starports so he could have easily got his medivac count back up very quickly.
The regame advantaged Parting if anything. MKP was the new player in, the one who was prepared to take Parting out. Just as MKP knew what Parting would do, Parting knew what MKP would do. Parting had plenty of templar and plenty of storms in the regame, MKP didn't kill him before templar at all.
That means nothing when only 7 zealots and 2 stalkers were attacking MKP's foward racks and the rest were at home.
Nobody comes back from such a huge deficit when your entire army gets rolled and protoss is seconds away from being right on top of your unit production facilities. It's so painfully obvious that parting had put himself in an unloseable situation. If anyone actually thinks parting would of lost that game from there than I just.....facepalm.
That means nothing when only 7 zealots and 2 stalkers were attacking MKP's foward racks and the rest were at home.
Nobody comes back from such a huge deficit when your entire army gets rolled and protoss is seconds away from being right on top of your unit production facilities. It's so painfully obvious that parting had put himself in an unloseable situation. If anyone actually thinks parting would of lost that game from there than I just.....facepalm.
I dont think anyone's arguing Parting would have lost the game. It's that he could have, which is why you cant award award a defwin.
On April 09 2012 01:29 Royskopp wrote: LAN would bring piracy.
The game was cracked a long time ago and has been available for free since then. Adding LAN would not change the fact.
But the multiplayer hasn't been. That's the important part. Blizzard doesn't care about the story mode. The pirates have been working on trying to get multiplayer to work since the start of beta and they never got it working right.
Actually there's cracked multiplayer and has been for a while now. Lan support included.
Exactly, there have been loads of games where people have come back from much worse positions than in the MKP vs Parting game. Shocks do happen especially when MKP is one of the players.
On April 09 2012 02:17 xrapture wrote: How about the Bomber vs MKP game? Where at so many points if the game diconnected everyone would have said Bomber would have won, and yet MKP won.
I don't think a win should be given unless the game is clearly over
aka Slayers Boxer incident in TSL 3.
You know, MKP had won that game if a d/c had happened at the beginning, where MKP killed almost everything from Bomber with his first attacky. Yet, Bomber came back. Let´s not pollute this thread with other games, please. You can find almost a gazillion situations where a d/c is extremely badly timed in almost any game.
On April 09 2012 01:48 Archerofaiur wrote: Hey guys I apologize for asking again but I am writing an email to Blizzard reps about this issue and it would really help if I could give a better sense of how many tournaments are effected by major disconnects.
Does anyone remember any other tournaments that this happened in?
Happened 3-4 times at MLG Columbus Winter the other month at least, has happened at several GSLs, for example MVP vs Dimaga in the World Championship tournament. Has happened at Dreamhack, other MLGs, etc.
On April 09 2012 02:17 xrapture wrote: aka Slayers Boxer incident in TSL 3.
Thanks guys! Anyone remember any other incidents I can toss in this email?
everyone saying they should have made it a BO3 are complete idiots. you cant make a team league like this have a BO3 between 2 players. what happens if parting loses the first game and wins the next game to win the BO3 now he has had to play 2 extra games for 1 win for his team essentially draining him of all stamina. Prime now tosses a fresh new player out. this would be completely unfair for parting (and MKP in the reverse sitution) regame or awarding the win are the only possible "fair" outcomes.
The regame lead to a completely pointless game where MKP knew PartinG´s strategy and profitted from it. It almost was the same game played twice. Only now, MKP knew that he had to kill PartinG well before PartinG has templars/storms out, Last edit: 2012-04-09 02:10:16 because PartinG simply is too good with templars for MKP to handle.
did u even watch the regame? they both did the EXACT same builds and MKP did the EXACT same timing attacks how did G1 change the way G2.
To everyone saying this cost Startale the finals all i have to say is get real. EVEN if parting was awarded the game the next prime player who ever it may have been could have still won the Finals, Bomber and squritle and curious are all very capable of taking 1 game off MKP he is not unbeatable. so to blame the whole loss of the finals on the fact that 1 player didnt get awarded a win after a DC (whether or not he deserved to be or not is irrelevant). He still could have won the regame and still the rest of his teamates could have beaten MKP
GSL's decision was a hard one, but I don't think it was the right one.
To be honest, the game was clearly in the advantage of Parting that when that disconnect happened, it would've been not fair to award Parting the win. You just can't regame if one player has a definitive advantage and such a huge one at that.
Regaming everytime a player is not going to win "100%" of the time is really dumb imo. There's been quite a few disconnects in BW that were closer than this and one player was awarded the win. (FvJ in 2009 iirc, that blackout incident)
On April 09 2012 02:21 psychotics wrote: everyone saying they should have made it a BO3 are complete idiots. you cant make a team league like this have a BO3 between 2 players. what happens if parting loses the first game and wins the next game to win the BO3 now he has had to play 2 extra games for 1 win for his team essentially draining him of all stamina. Prime now tosses a fresh new player out. this would be completely unfair for parting (and MKP in the reverse sitution) regame or awarding the win are the only possible "fair" outcomes.
The regame lead to a completely pointless game where MKP knew PartinG´s strategy and profitted from it. It almost was the same game played twice. Only now, MKP knew that he had to kill PartinG well before PartinG has templars/storms out, Last edit: 2012-04-09 02:10:16 because PartinG simply is too good with templars for MKP to handle.
did u even watch the regame? they both did the EXACT same builds and MKP did the EXACT same timing attacks how did G1 change the way G2.
To everyone saying this cost Startale the finals all i have to say is get real. EVEN if parting was awarded the game the next prime player who ever it may have been could have still won the Finals, Bomber and squritle and curious are all very capable of taking 1 game off MKP he is not unbeatable. so to blame the whole loss of the finals on the fact that 1 player didnt get awarded a win after a DC (whether or not he deserved to be or not is irrelevant). He still could have won the regame and still the rest of his teamates could have beaten MKP
Except they made different decisions and played it out differently. MarineKing went for a drop, instead of busting up a ramp, and PartinG went for Archons instead of feedbacking... both of these decisions impacted by the previous disconnect-game.
The stupid thing about the regame was that: Although MarineKing is probably the superior player head-to-head overall, PartinG was just way more prepared for his match (which showed in his impeccable macro and control) while MKP played a bit sloppier (banking minerals&gas/low production facilities, running into a few storms etc.) and it was because of this, that PartinG was able to come so close to winning the first game - one that he proved he deserved. But it was because of this disconnect that he was robbed, and it was followed up by MKP cleaning up his act the next game and proceeding to roll through him.
It's a team-league format and a Best of 1, and with it comes the excitement of Las Vegas and IPL 4, but the decision of the regame was based on the idea that a strategy prepared against another player would be viable two games in a row and that PartinG was a better player overall and could win another game with 10 minutes of preparation... which kinda sucks for him .
edit: Tbh, I don't think regames should exist in an all-kill format, because snipers will never be able to execute the same strategy twice and a regame would really cost a team the series if that had happened.
Saying it should be extended to a bo3 is saying Parting would've won, people would still cry about it if MKP takes it 2-1. Just shut up about it, no one knows the exact winner of the game, the game of MKP vs Bomber. If either of them dced after Bomber landed his manner mule, people would've said Bomber won, but guess who won? Exactly, no one knows the out come of games between Koreans. They don't give up until the very end. Now get over it, it happened.
EPT
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