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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 24 2012 11:26 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 11:18 liberal wrote:
I'm not following this so closely, maybe someone can explain something to me....
How does the "stand your ground" law change anything? Whether or not a person tries to flee a fight, they still have the right to self defense once they are attacked, right?
Are you telling me that outside of Florida, if someone attacks me and I didn't try to flee first, I've somehow forfeit my right to defend myself? where there is no "stand your ground" law, you have the duty to retreat before you can use deadly force. otherwise its not justified. so, if someone attacks you and you kill them, but you had the ability to just walk away before killing them then you cant claim self defense.
But then doesn't that assume that a person has to know the other person is about to use deadly force against them? How can you prove in a court of law whether or not the shooter was aware of a serious threat or danger to themselves, before the attack actually occurs?
The whole law just seems nonsensical to me.
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On March 24 2012 11:50 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 11:26 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 11:18 liberal wrote:
I'm not following this so closely, maybe someone can explain something to me....
How does the "stand your ground" law change anything? Whether or not a person tries to flee a fight, they still have the right to self defense once they are attacked, right?
Are you telling me that outside of Florida, if someone attacks me and I didn't try to flee first, I've somehow forfeit my right to defend myself? where there is no "stand your ground" law, you have the duty to retreat before you can use deadly force. otherwise its not justified. so, if someone attacks you and you kill them, but you had the ability to just walk away before killing them then you cant claim self defense. But then doesn't that assume that a person has to know the other person is about to use deadly force against them? How can you prove in a court of law whether or not the shooter was aware of a serious threat or danger to themselves, before the attack actually occurs? The whole law just seems nonsensical to me.
based on the factual circumstances you have to show you had a reasonable fear of imminent injury/death. its not a bright line rule. if a jury believes you acted unreasonably (even though you thought it was completely reasonable), you are going to prison.
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I live in Tampa, Fl
and I have to say that these stories are really scary and sad at the same time.
scary and sad cause you don't know if the shooting was justified and knowing that people will shoot you(possibly) on the whim
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On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do.
I guess. But I have a lot of respect for police officers in general (as much as for soldiers), thats whats also disturbing about this case. If the cops had been allowed to do their job in the first place (confront Trayvon) they probably wouldn't have made any mistakes. And Trayvon would have walked home a litte upset that somebody may have been racially profiling him. I just would expect someone to be taking things so serious at that point that a lot of small mistakes would not be made. Which by the police cheif stepping down, seems may have been the case.
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On March 24 2012 14:20 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. I guess. But I have a lot of respect for police officers in general (as much as for soldiers), thats whats also disturbing about this case. If the cops had been allowed to do their job in the first place (confront Trayvon) they probably wouldn't have made any mistakes. And Trayvon would have walked home a litte upset that somebody may have been racially profiling him. I just would expect someone to be taking things so serious at that point that a lot of small mistakes would not be made. Which by the police cheif stepping down, seems may have been the case.
It's entirely possible that the reason the police weren't able to confront Trayvon was because he attacked Zimmerman before they arrived.
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On March 24 2012 14:22 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 14:20 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:50 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:42 Wrongspeedy wrote:On March 24 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 24 2012 06:38 Wrongspeedy wrote:Good info, still pretty vague. They list Tray as 6' and 160lbs too. Which sounds closer to the truth than 6'3 140. Really wish they would have followed threw better. Taken pictures of Zimmermans injuries, as well as taking his clothes or whatever. I wonder how his interrogation went. may i see where it says that they didnt take pictures or take his clothes? It doesn't say it in that report. But I haven't seen any pictures of his injuries, and other people have posted that he left the station in his clothes. But I don't know if they put evidence up. Might have been treehugger I don't remember which post it was. i have read every post in this thread and most of the articles quoted. i have seen people say that the cops didn't do anything, but never anything that shows what they actually did or did not do. its an open investigation, its not like the police release all of their evidence because the media is in a frenzy. Lol I didn't say they would release all the evidence. And I didn't say the cops didn't do anything. What I said was is that I have read that he left the police station in the clothes he came in. Whether or not thats true I don't know. But not following through 100% with an investigation, is the almost the same as doing nothing. Entire cases sometimes rest on a single piece of hard evidence. okay. the point im making is that you (figuratively, not you personally) cant say the cops didnt do a good job if you dont know what they did or didn't do. I guess. But I have a lot of respect for police officers in general (as much as for soldiers), thats whats also disturbing about this case. If the cops had been allowed to do their job in the first place (confront Trayvon) they probably wouldn't have made any mistakes. And Trayvon would have walked home a litte upset that somebody may have been racially profiling him. I just would expect someone to be taking things so serious at that point that a lot of small mistakes would not be made. Which by the police cheif stepping down, seems may have been the case. It's entirely possible that the reason the police weren't able to confront Trayvon was because he attacked Zimmerman before they arrived.
Opinion? Do we really need to start this again? Because it was my opinion that Zimmerman should have never tried to confront him in the first place. Every possible scenario starts with Zimmerman leaving his car when he knows he shouldn't.
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There was no reason for Zimmerman to leave his house. Or follow Trayvon in his car. Or for the police to even arrive based on his description. Or for Zimmerman to get out of his car.
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On March 24 2012 15:04 Defacer wrote:
There was no reason for Zimmerman to leave his house. Or follow Trayvon in his car. Or for the police to even arrive based on his description. Or for Zimmerman to get out of his car.
there were reasons. just not very good ones
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A young man was killed because of this miserable excuse for a human being... Its a tragedy, this kid will never have a chance to grow up and have a family, the fact that he may get away with this makes me lose the little faith I had in our judicial system
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On March 24 2012 15:56 Mortalfury wrote:
A young man was killed because of this miserable excuse for a human being... Its a tragedy, this kid will never have a chance to grow up and have a family, the fact that he may get away with this makes me lose the little faith I had in our judicial system
Please read up a bit more on this case before making such radical statements.
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So many people have no idea of what actually happened other then "some guy left a car and shot a kid!"
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On March 24 2012 16:32 dogabutila wrote:
So many people have no idea of what actually happened other then "some guy left a car and shot a kid!"
essentially that's what happened.
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On March 24 2012 16:32 dogabutila wrote:
So many people have no idea of what actually happened other then "some guy left a car and shot a kid!"
actually there is a lot more established information that is really relevant. some guy was 250 pounds. some kid was 140 . a 110 pound difference. which makes it utterly LAUGHABLE that some vicious idiots on this forum are suggesting that its quite possible that Zimmerman was being attacked such that he felt his life was in danger. "some guy" was armed. some kid was not. was the kid following the guy? no. an armed man with 110 pound advantage, ~8 years ahead in maturity stalks kid against the suggestions of police dispatcher and ends up shooting kid who was on his way to buy some snacks.
if that doesn't make you upset/suspicious/incredulous you are missing a piece of your humanity. BTW all this completely apart from race.
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On March 24 2012 16:47 JeanLuc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 16:32 dogabutila wrote:
So many people have no idea of what actually happened other then "some guy left a car and shot a kid!" actually there is a lot more established information that is really relevant. some guy was 250 pounds. some kid was 140 . a 110 pound difference. which makes it utterly LAUGHABLE that some vicious idiots on this forum are suggesting that its quite possible that Zimmerman was being attacked such that he felt his life was in danger. "some guy" was armed. some kid was not. was the kid following the guy? no. an armed man with 110 pound advantage, ~8 years ahead in maturity stalks kid against the suggestions of police dispatcher and ends up shooting kid who was on his way to buy some snacks. if that doesn't make you upset/suspicious/incredulous you are missing a piece of your humanity. BTW all this completely apart from race.
how do you explain the witness who saw the kid on top of zimmerman punching him in the face?
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I don't know if this is appropriate, but I'm genuinely curious what you guys think.
Let's imagine Trayvon is a 16 year-old, white Emo kid with Skrillex hair.
Poll: What if Trayvon was a White Emo Kid?Zimmerman would have been arrested. (21) 75% Not difference whatsoever. He stood his ground. (5) 18% Zimmerman would have at least been tested for drugs and alcohol. (2) 7% 28 total votes Your vote: What if Trayvon was a White Emo Kid? (Vote): Zimmerman would have been arrested.
(Vote): Zimmerman would have at least been tested for drugs and alcohol.
(Vote): Not difference whatsoever. He stood his ground.
Do you think the Florida police would have handled things differently?
Personally, I think that at minimum, the Florida police would have tested Zimmerman for drugs and alcohol, investigated him more throughly, or ... something. Maybe that's not fair though.
I just don't think they would have given Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt at the crime scene.
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As more information is released, it is becoming clear that this story is at the very least shoddy and sensationalist journalism and at the worst media spin and an unscrupulous attempt to use this tragic event to attack gun rights. When this story broke, the event was described and/or implied as the cold blooded racially motivated murder of a defenseless black child by a paranoid gun toting nut and that the racist police were going to let him slide despite clear evidence of the crime committed. As the facts come in, it is clear that nearly every part of that is not accurate.
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On March 24 2012 17:07 Mallard86 wrote:
As more information is released, it is becoming clear that this story is at the very least shoddy and sensationalist journalism and at the worst media spin and an unscrupulous attempt to use this tragic event to attack gun rights. When this story broke, the event was described and/or implied as the cold blooded racially motivated murder of a defenseless black child by a paranoid gun toting nut and that the racist police were going to let him slide despite clear evidence of the crime committed. As the facts come in, it is clear that nearly every part of that is not accurate.
dont forget the media called him white at the beginning. now some call him Hispanic, and other call him white Hispanic. he is half white, half peruvian.
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I feel bad for the family of this kid honestly, but no one can say at this point whether or not he actually acted in self-defense or not. Innocent until proven guilty....as much as it may suck sometimes.
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On March 24 2012 17:07 Mallard86 wrote:
As more information is released, it is becoming clear that this story is at the very least shoddy and sensationalist journalism and at the worst media spin and an unscrupulous attempt to use this tragic event to attack gun rights. When this story broke, the event was described and/or implied as the cold blooded racially motivated murder of a defenseless black child by a paranoid gun toting nut and that the racist police were going to let him slide despite clear evidence of the crime committed. As the facts come in, it is clear that nearly every part of that is not accurate.
Well, Zimmerman was racially motivated. He, at the bare minimum, was obsessed with young black men.
The real controversy is the Stand your Ground law, and the precedence this ambiguous situation sets. Surely it wasn't intended to encourage citizens to pursue vigilante justice.
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On March 24 2012 17:47 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 17:07 Mallard86 wrote:
As more information is released, it is becoming clear that this story is at the very least shoddy and sensationalist journalism and at the worst media spin and an unscrupulous attempt to use this tragic event to attack gun rights. When this story broke, the event was described and/or implied as the cold blooded racially motivated murder of a defenseless black child by a paranoid gun toting nut and that the racist police were going to let him slide despite clear evidence of the crime committed. As the facts come in, it is clear that nearly every part of that is not accurate.
Well, Zimmerman was racially motivated. He, at the bare minimum, was obsessed with young black men. The real controversy is the Stand your Ground law, and the precedence this ambiguous situation sets. Surely it wasn't intended to encourage citizens to pursue vigilante justice.
The irony of the law is that it's meant for the black kid. If Zimmerman is innocent, you can counter stand your ground when someone stands their ground. woot for anyone who wants to legally kill people.
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EPT
