You mean like chasing them down, tackling them, then holding them at gunpoint. Yeah your right that is much more than "following" someone. Believe me, a cop can say your menacing for much less than what he did before he shot him.
where you getting these facts from? because if we are making up facts, i would like to play that game too.
Well the facts are that Zimmerman tells someone on the phone that he knows the kid is aware of his presence and is running. I'm not making things up. He stalked him, chased him, and detained him. All the while he is threatening. You do not chase someone down and detain them (even without a weapon) without being threatening or having risk of physical harm. Zimmerman was out of his rights before he even fired the weapon. He was also trespassing.
Why do you feel the need to stick up for him so much? Let his attorney do that, if he even has to go to court....
im not defending him. i just dont like it when people make up shit. you obviously dont know the law, and you keep making up facts. we dont know what he did after he hung up the phone other than that he shot the kid. you know nothing else. so dotn make shit up.
There is so much evidence.(Most of it well documented in the OP) First off he was on the phone with the cops he said that he was chasing the kid and they said he didnt need to do that. Next you hear the kid crying for help moments before he is being shot. This man put himself in that position the boy was not putting him into a life threatening position. Even if he could somehow claim self defense, He would be the one who put himself in danger in the first place.
It's not a fact that Martin was crying for help. Zimmerman said it was him that was crying for help. Martin's father said the cries for help that he heard on the 911 tapes were not of his son. Zimmerman had grass stains on his back and a bloody nose and was bleeding from the back of his head. It appears to me that it was Martin that had the upper hand in the fight and Zimmerman fired because he couldn't subdue Martin physically. Doesn't make Zimmerman innocent, but you can't convict him on a narrative that you don't even know is true.
Here is an interesting thought experiment to think about regarding the law. One of two things happened:
(1) Zimmerman initiated the fight and shot Martin. Uncontroversial murder
(2) or Martin initiated the fight so Zimmerman can claim self defense. But according to the "stand your ground" law Martin is legally entitled to try to kill Zimmerman since Zimmerman following him is clearly a perceived threat to his life. So If Martin had killed Zimmerman then he could uncontroversially claim self defense. And here Zimmerman has killed Martin and is claiming self defense. The IRONY is that Martin can legally initiate the fight in self defense and get killed by Zimmerman and then Zimmerman can claim self defense. So the IRONY is that no matter who kills who the other can claim self defense. Of course this is based on the assumption that you believe Zimmerman can claim bullshit self defense.
no, someone "pursuing" you is not a reasonable threat to your life and justification to kill them. The case isn't as black and white as people make it out to be. It has to do with culpability and how much Zimmerman's actions/negligence led to Trayvon's death. There should definitely be a trial, but it's not as simple as 1 dead body + 1 guy with gun = 1 murder
The issue is not what you think. The issue is how the law interprets "stand your ground".
That has to do with exactly what I said. Since there is a lack of evidence of the altercation the events leading up to the altercation become more important. Whether Zimmerman was the instigator is the most important thing to determine.
I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to the point that you don't get to decide that "stand your ground" does not include being pursued at night. You can't cherry pick "stand your ground". Its all or nothing if you take the position of just follow the law to the letter.
On March 22 2012 17:36 Jibba wrote: We have a very clear idea of the intent of law though. What he says is not definitive, but it does have bearing on whether it's applicable or not. Especially now that the case is widely public, it would take some extremely ballsy judicial activism to make a case against it.
To be fair though, judges often go against the intent of a law, either in favor of the text or in favor of their own personal view. The 14th amendment was pretty clear (at least Section 1), it was to make former slaves into citizens and to prevent the states from taking away their rights without a good reason. In recent memory though it has been used to argue that women have a constitutional right to abortion access and that laws against homosexual sodomy are unconstitutional, both under the heading of 'substantive due process.'
I don't know where people get this idea. But FUCK! don't kill people JESUS! I don't care if you see a fucking Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple, White AND Black person and he's as scary as the Devil's balls. Don't fucking kill him. If you use LOVE instead of HATE you get a hell of a lot further in life.
Fucking Stupid. And now a kid is dead. And this guy thinks he did the right thing. What an ignominious asshole. And now I have to love this prick, cause I love everybody. No matter what. But here's a word from someone who loves you Mr. George Zimmerman:
You are a horrible, horrible prick. You should work towards fixing that. Please, don't fucking kill people anymore goddamnit.
/rant
Dude. You're like my fucking role model. I'm trying to love Zimmerman but damn he's a stupid motherfucker.... Really just hope he gets a cold cell and throw away the key. He can have a hole for sewage and food once a day.
On March 22 2012 17:36 Jibba wrote: We have a very clear idea of the intent of law though. What he says is not definitive, but it does have bearing on whether it's applicable or not. Especially now that the case is widely public, it would take some extremely ballsy judicial activism to make a case against it.
To be fair though, judges often go against the intent of a law, either in favor of the text or in favor of their own personal view. The 14th amendment was pretty clear (at least Section 1), it was to make former slaves into citizens and to prevent the states from taking away their rights without a good reason. In recent memory though it has been used to argue that women have a constitutional right to abortion access and that laws against homosexual sodomy are unconstitutional, both under the heading of 'substantive due process.'
On March 22 2012 17:03 Leto II wrote: -->reasons why guns should not be available to the mass population (its full of idiots)
ironically, this is also a reason TO allow guns out there. I need to protect myself from all the idiots!!!!
If no-one has guns, you don't need protecting!? Even here where guns are hard to get hold of, you never here about anyone who saved peoples lives from criminals with his own gun - you hear about the farmer who blows away teenagers trespassing on his farm. FFS it's painfully obvious that allowing your citizens to walk around with lethal force is a fool's errand.
On March 22 2012 17:30 Flyingcookie wrote: How this is even POSSIBLE? He KILLED someone! Why he isn't in custody until the thing are clear????
In the US when someone dies we don't immediately detain the person we think did it. You have to wait until you ahve enough evidence ot convince a judge that he/she might have done it. Unless you charge them with a crime (and you have to have enough evidence ot obtain a warrant to do that) you can hold them for a MAX of 72 hrs.
thanks
here it's the other way around you get arrested until its cleared and get refunded by the state for lost worktime ect. if you aren't guilty so i was a little bit shocked he still is free
On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote: "...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
On March 22 2012 17:36 Jibba wrote: We have a very clear idea of the intent of law though. What he says is not definitive, but it does have bearing on whether it's applicable or not. Especially now that the case is widely public, it would take some extremely ballsy judicial activism to make a case against it.
To be fair though, judges often go against the intent of a law, either in favor of the text or in favor of their own personal view. The 14th amendment was pretty clear (at least Section 1), it was to make former slaves into citizens and to prevent the states from taking away their rights without a good reason. In recent memory though it has been used to argue that women have a constitutional right to abortion access and that laws against homosexual sodomy are unconstitutional, both under the heading of 'substantive due process.'
The intent of this law is like really really clear though, because it was intended to cover specific loopholes in self defense laws, notably so that 'individuals are lawfully able to defend themselves when attacked and there is no duty to retreat when an individual is attacked on their property'. When someone tries to challenge the interpretation of the law, you end up scrutinizing the case laws or reasoning for which the law was passed, and for this case that's pretty clear cut, you look at the case of the man who killed someone who broke into his RV in self-defense.
On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote: "...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
On March 22 2012 09:10 erin[go]bragh wrote: I don't get it. He followed the kid, he admitted to it on a recorded phone call, he initiated the confrontation.
How could that possibly be protected under law? Its called "Stand Your Ground" not "Seek and Destroy."
Being a legal gun owner in the state of florida AND ALSO quite a liberal i completely agree with this statement.
REGARDLESS of whether or not this was murder rule, i just wanted to make a couple things clear.
For a number of gun owners Rule number 1 of gun owning is if you are in a dangerous situation, attempt to remove yourself and others (others as in people who would become victims; for some people its just yourself) from the situation. Rule number 2: Try harder to remove yourself and others from the situation. Rule number 3: Your life or another persons innocent life is in danger, shoot until the target is no longer a threat call 911 if it has not already been done so and attempt first aid to the best of your abilities to the person who was shot.
Stand your Ground is seen by many as a deterrent to crime and protection of the populace mostly because if someone's life is in danger most likely if an officer is not nearby no one is going to be able to help them in time. A good example of this was when a man broke into a donut shop in Texas. He assaulted the female clerk and a neighbor came over and shot the Robber. Stand Your Ground protects you and others off of your own property.
SOURCE:
This idea of Stand Your Ground is exactly NOT what Zimmerman did and should not be protected under this law. He was not witnessing any crime in which anyone was in danger nor was he in danger in the first place. By following and confronting the teenager he started the "situation".
(What would be better though? In my personal opinion it would be better if either no one could own guns {which would never happen} or they made the EXTREMELY EASY way of owning a gun much harder where one would have to register their firearms with the national government and also take some type of psychological test and pass to ensure that they are mentally stable. ALSO no past crimes of the second degree misdemeanor(IE: dont fuck up you get to own a gun).)
On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote: "...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
where do you get this informations from?
It's all out there..... interviews with neighbors and eyewitnesses. Reading those paint a much different picture then you would get from reading news sources. For some reason the news keeps getting basic known facts wrong and sensationalize. Wonder why that might be so.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
where do you get this informations from?
It's all out there..... interviews with neighbors and eyewitnesses. Reading those paint a much different picture then you would get from reading news sources. For some reason the news keeps getting basic known facts wrong and sensationalize. Wonder why that might be so.
Eh, he asked where you got the information from and you basically answered "not from newspapers." If you want to have any shed of credability you'll post exactly where to find this information otherwise you are just spewing bullshit that go against what is out there in the public realm.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
where do you get this informations from?
It's all out there..... interviews with neighbors and eyewitnesses. Reading those paint a much different picture then you would get from reading news sources. For some reason the news keeps getting basic known facts wrong and sensationalize. Wonder why that might be so.
Hearsay and creating hypothetical situations, that's where he got the information.
On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote: "...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
Wait... are you being serious? I cant tell.
Anyway, there is no way a grown man weighing 250 ibs can be under serious thread from a 17 year old, unarmed boy weighing 140 ibs, especially not if the grown man has a gun, it's just not gonna happen.
On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote: "...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
It's a common mistake that I've been seeing in this story. The dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". That statement is NOT "being told by the police to not follow the kid". Arguments that Zimmerman was told not to follow the kid are completely wrong. The dispatcher merely said he doesn't have to, but Zimmerman had every right to follow.
Also, the self-defense issue is a tricky one here. Even though the kid had only Skittles, Zimmerman had a gun. If Zimmerman believed the kid went for his gun, that is an entirely different scenario. Very much similar to cops, as most police officers shot in the line of duty, are shot with their own guns. I'm not saying this is what happened here. I'm not sure we'll ever know what really happened. However, it's premature to argue that it couldn't possibly have been self-defense.
What about the voice calling for help? It's clearly not Zimmerman's voice, so it has to be the kids. Do you think the kid was calling for help with his hands in his pants holding the Skittles he had? Not a chance. There is an EXTREMELY small chance Zimmerman didn't know the kid was armed before he shot him.
well, according to the CNN article, they are doing voice analysis to see who was actually calling for help. its unclear whether it was the kid. plus, zimmerman apparently got bloodied so there was some confrontation, and he may have been calling for help.
Seems pretty clear to me, just listen to the two videos.
i listened to the videos. i have never heard the kid or zimmerman's voice before (and neither have you i assume), so how are we to determine who was calling for help? zimmerman apparently says it is him, i have no idea.
edit: i just listened to the video again. i didnt even hear anyone yell help. the lady just says that someone yelled help. you just hear screaming in the background.
You heard Zimmerman in the first 911 call. Compare that to the frantically pleading and screaming voice heard on the second and described by the lady on the call as the victim's.
We don't know who was screaming. But I assumed it was Tray at first because he is the one who is dead, and was shot during the screaming.
We do know. There was an eyewitness who called 911. It is quite clear that Zimmerman was on his back mounted by Martin and being struck repeatedly in the face. You know, that classic UFC "hey I'm just waiting for the ref to stop me now" thing? Except there is no ref. The scream for help was clearly from Zimmerman, and the position of the people involved were clearly determined by clothing, easily identifiable to the eyewitness.
What else is missing... Oh, the fact that Martin was actually the aggressor? Zimmerman was just following Martin and keeping him in sight. Or do you really believe that an overweight random dude can chase down a football player? Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in sight, Martin ambushed him...
Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested? His story and all the physical evidence correspond to the eyewitness account. Wasn't the eyewitness corrected/coached? Yes and no. The eyewitness got the names mixed up. I mentioned before the clothing? The witness described a person in red on the bottom being punched repeatedly by a person in white and pleading for help. Who was wearing the red clothing? Zimmerman. Who was wearing white clothing? Martin.
But Zimmerman is racist! Not really. There WERE a rash of burglaries recently there. They WERE committed by black males of that age. His neighbors are African-American and are friends with Zimmerman. They talked to each other semi regularly about security and Zimmerman offers them suggestions and tips and keeps them updated on news.
But Zimmerman is really just a vigilante! Not really. He isn't self appointed and shit like everybody is trying to make out. There is a valid regular neighborhood watch. Zimmerman is a watch captain, he was appointed by the others in the neighborhood watch. He isn't randomly doing this by himself, it's a legitimate group. Zimmerman actually prevented crimes and held people for arrest before.
Wait... are you being serious? I cant tell.
Anyway, there is no way a grown man weighing 250 ibs can be under serious thread from a 17 year old, unarmed boy weighing 140 ibs, especially not if the grown man has a gun, it's just not gonna happen.
Lock him up.
A 140lbs guy could easily take down a 250lbs guy in a physical fight. Depends on so many things.
Edit: And the Zimmerman guy sounds slightly retarded from the police call. How they let a guy like that own a gun is beyond me.
These things make me so mad, I was about to wright a long wall of text about USA, guns etc. but its been done so many times before. Why do so many people in USA belive that guns solve crime and give protection, where does this come from?
EPT
