EPTBully Victim stabbed Bully to Death - Page 42
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
Areon
United States273 Posts
| ||
|
hunts
United States2113 Posts
| ||
|
Chilling5pr33
Germany518 Posts
Poll: Is this a case of? Self defence. (59) Something else. (8) Murder. (2) 69 total votes Your vote: Is this a case of? | ||
|
sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:42 LegendaryZ wrote:How many people knowingly walk into an avoidable situation when they're genuinely afraid they might die? These bullies didn't jump him out of the blue. They were threatening him all day. This isn't a case of some random guy you don't know coming up to you and pointing a gun at you. It's that idiot in the class that says, "I'm going to kick your ass after school today." What part of this situation adds up in your mind? He was threatened after he got on the bus, and they followed him off the bus. What was he supposed to do, never get off? Clearly, any adults on the bus didn't feel like intervening either. Additionally, simply because you're not afraid that you're going to die when someone threatens you doesn't mean you won't change your mind when people start hitting you in the back of the head. For all we know, the kid was channeling "LegendaryZ" and thinking "Well, they probably won't really hurt me, most threats don't pan out!" until he started being hit. | ||
|
Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:32 LegendaryZ wrote: Maybe, but what are you doing bringing a knife to a fist fight? . He wasn't bringing a knife to a fist fight... The bully brought fists to a knife fight. | ||
|
Aevum
Canada27 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:42 LegendaryZ wrote: How many people knowingly walk into an avoidable situation when they're genuinely afraid they might die? These bullies didn't jump him out of the blue. They were threatening him all day. This isn't a case of some random guy you don't know coming up to you and pointing a gun at you. It's that idiot in the class that says, "I'm going to kick your ass after school today." What part of this situation adds up in your mind? You are still placing your trust in the bully's hands that he will stop pummelling you before you die. You are also risking that the strikes he inflicts upon you are not accidentally lethal/permanently damaging. You are also taking abuse for no reason. Why does the bully's health get to be thought about/cared about? He forfeited any rights he had when he decided to attack for no reason. There is absolutely no reason that you should have to gamble with your life when somebody is attacking you. | ||
|
Dizmaul
United States831 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:48 Krikkitone wrote: He wasn't bringing a knife to a fist fight... The bully brought fists to a knife fight. haha I really like that one | ||
|
RageBot
Israel1530 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote: Wow This is a hard to judge case. What is TL thinking on this one? Poll: Is this a case of? Self defence. (59) Something else. (8) Murder. (2) 69 total votes Your vote: Is this a case of? Can you please add "Justice" to this poll? | ||
|
LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:41 sunprince wrote: How do you know it would stay a fist fight? For all you know they're hiding weapons that they simply haven't deployed yet. Further, you obviously don't understand anything about violence if you think that multiple people can't kill you just as easily with their bare hands if they chose to as you could kill one of them with a knife. The human body is extremely, extremely fragile, and there are a multitude of ways you can die from a gang beating. The kid was under the impression that they would gang up on him and seriously hurt him, so he started carrying a knife. Sounds reasonable to me. So I guess we should all be walking around with knives and guns then because we don't know what's going to happen or when, right? That way when something happens and we make the assumption that we might get hurt, we can shoot the other person and be justified in doing so. Yeah, completely reasonable. What a wonderful world that would be... Hindsight is 20/20. When you're in that situation, you don't know if they'll stop at a couple punches. You don't know if they'll proceed to pull out knives and stab you. You don't know if they'll beat you into the ground and then proceed to rape you, before kicking you in the stomach until your liver ruptures. You can't know, and if you wait long enough, your options will evaporate because you'll be in too much pain/disorientation to defend yourself any longer. If you actually knew anything about fighting, you'd know that all it takes is one good/lucky punch to knock you out, and then they could do anything to you, whether that's inserting fireworks into your anus or dumping you in a pool face down. You're GROSSLY catastrophizing the actual risks and you know it. Emphasizing worst case scenarios rather than practical ones really doesn't serve to help your point along. Yes, all of these things are possible. Now how often am I worried about a highschool kid sticking firecrackers in my anus? I tend to be more of a proponent of accurate risk assessment because that generally leads to less stupidity in the long run. There are always unpredictable one-off scenarios, but what your reliance on these outlandish scenarios to make your point is disturbing. Given prevalent and recurring episodes of bullying, skipping school one day doesn't mean that they wouldn't come after him the next. The bullies threatened to seriously hurt him "soon". What is he supposed to do, stop going to school altogether? Yes, if you actually have a real fear that someone from school may kill you the sensible thing would be to stop going to school (thereby entirely avoiding any scenario where you might be killed) until the situation is resolved. It would also encourage authorities to take the situation a lot more seriously, increasing the chances of a peaceful resolution. I call bullshit. Bullying experts strongly disagree with you. Just because YOU weren't threated to that extent when you were bullied, doesn't mean that's the case for everyone. Read any research on bullying to discover why you are incredibly wrong. Got any particular sources you'd like me to read? I'll be happy to read it. | ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:32 LegendaryZ wrote: Maybe, but what are you doing bringing a knife to a fist fight? Yes, because shootings have this high likelihood of resulting in death. A couple of punches do not and there's a reason there's outrage when a cop shoots an unarmed person. He had every option in the world leading up to the point where he was surrounded and he chose to walk right into it despite every opportunity to avoid the conflict altogether. Most rational people don't walk into a violent scenario that they know is coming beforehand... especially if they're genuinely afraid. He had the choice of staying home that day or packing a knife with him. He chose the latter. Yeah... Lack of options. I like how you purposely use the words "violent attackers" rather than "bullies" here because it's easier to lump them in the same category and some random guy who comes out of the darkness to mug you. All of the information indicates that this has been an ongoing problem he's been dealing with so it's not just some random "violent attackers". They're people he knows and he likely has a reasonable amount of information to form a prediction about what they're going to do. I absolutely love how everyone is jumping on the "he felt his life was being threatened" bandwagon. Anyone who's actually been bullied knows that getting killed is the absolute last thing you fear. This is just what the courts need to hear so that he doesn't get in too much trouble. Barring a gross misinterpretation of the actual danger present (which is still not an excuse), he was probably just scared of physical pain. Whether you want to argue that this fear is enough to LEGALLY warrant his actions, I don't care, but I feel that just because you legally CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean that you SHOULD. If could have a genuine fear that my life is potentially in danger if a police officer points his gun at me. I don't know what's going through his head or whether he's a good cop or a bad cop. Should I then pull out my own gun and start shooting in self defense? Of course not because that would be an incredibly stupid move given the increased likelihood of the encounter ending in a bad way. Even when backed into a corner, violence is not the end all be all solution nor is it your only option. You need to learn to make the smart decision. Sometimes the smart decision is violence when the potential danger of escalating the situation it outweighed by the benefits. This isn't such a scenario. I don't understand what you're talking about. He tried to genuinely avoid the conflict. He didn't "bring a knife into a fist fight." A fist fight implies first of all that both sides even intended to fight, this kid did not. This was never a "fist fight." Second, he did not have every option in the world. That's a load of crap if I've ever heard one. Ratting someone out, especially as popular as this kid supposedly was, could cause enough mental damage/trauma to ruin this kid for life. I'm not saying that murdering someone didn't cause even more trauma (but I honestly think it didn't), but he wanted to avoid the ratting out path, and potentially avoid this altogether. Recall, this bullying has been going on for over a year. Third, I can only laugh that you say "he walked right into it." He told the guy he didn't want to fight multiple times, showed that he had a knife and wanted to avoid said fight, and even got off the bus multiple stops early in an attempt to avoid the fight. Then, even as the bully got off the bus to follow him, Jorge still ignored him, until he received a blow to the back of his head, aka a sucker punch. Fourth, you're completely screwing things with the police officer analogy, which is just awful. The police officer is rarely the instigator. And even if he pointed his gun at you, he has still not hit you yet. However, if a random person, say his name is Dylan, pulls a gun out on you, then yes you DO have the right to defend yourself. Also, in this situation, the victim was already in a situation of duress. It's not like he was threatened to be assaulted, like in your analogy. He has already been hit in the back of the head. Fifth, if you've ever been beaten up, you'd know things completely change when adrenaline is pumping. I've beaten other people up, and gotten my ass kicked to the point (my friend and I being jumped by 10 other guys) where my entire face was bruised up and I couldn't sleep on one side of my head at night. You don't go into any fight, especially vs someone three years older than you and familiar with jujitsu, thinking "oh I'll just get out of this with a few bruises." You think, "this guy is going to try to beat the living shit out of me when his adrenaline is pumping and most likely won't stop until someone else breaks up the fight. Until then, he'll keep whaling on me." In my honest opinion, better Dylan ends up dead than Jorge ends up with a black eye, broken arm, the need to relocate schools and the feeling that he's hopeless while Dylan potentially ends up with a suspension or a very limited amount of juvie time. Also, I think you highly underestimate the amount of people that carry around knives for the sole purpose of self defense. Depending where you live, it's quite high. In fact, in some high schools, I'd gather over 50% of the males had some sort of pocketknife on them or in their locker. | ||
|
Aevum
Canada27 Posts
When you attack somebody, you forfeit your right to safety. You are compromising somebody else's, after all, are you not? Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. | ||
|
Dizmaul
United States831 Posts
| ||
|
Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
In all seriousness, the amount of suicides because of bullying in this country every year is absurd. To even lose one child to suicide because of some punkass bully is far too much. Bravo Saavedra, thank you for showing to the world that one can stand up to their aggressors. | ||
|
Juvant
United States723 Posts
The people who were most informed on this entire incident found the kid's response in self defense; these are people well versed in the law. Witnesses corroborated the fact that it was self defense. The bullying victim had no way of knowing his attacker's intentions or capabilities; he has the right to do whatever is necessary to save himself. And he did. It sucks, but actions have consequences; this is something a 16 year old should understand. | ||
|
LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:51 Aevum wrote: You are still placing your trust in the bully's hands that he will stop pummelling you before you die. You are also risking that the strikes he inflicts upon you are not accidentally lethal/permanently damaging. You are also taking abuse for no reason. Why does the bully's health get to be thought about/cared about? He forfeited any rights he had when he decided to attack for no reason. There is absolutely no reason that you should have to gamble with your life when somebody is attacking you. Not walking into the situation to begin with guarantees that you won't get pummeled in the first place and therefore makes the bully irrelevant. Drawing a knife in the middle of a fight, however, is gambling because: A) You've placed yourself in the situation to begin with. B) You're assuming that the other guy doesn't have a knife or a gun. C) You're assuming that if he does, he'll either be unable to use it or your weapon will win. D) You're assuming that you pulling out a weapon won't cause a panic reaction from him that could potentially end up with you hurt even more. Yeah, that seems like way more of a gamble and a lot more assumptions to ride on than saying "I'm not going to go to school until either this guy is gone or I'm transferred." | ||
|
gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:53 LegendaryZ wrote: So I guess we should all be walking around with knives and guns then because we don't know what's going to happen or when, right? That way when something happens and we make the assumption that we might get hurt, we can shoot the other person and be justified in doing so. Yeah, completely reasonable. What a wonderful world that would be... You're GROSSLY catastrophizing the actual risks and you know it. Emphasizing worst case scenarios rather than practical ones really doesn't serve to help your point along. Yes, all of these things are possible. Now how often am I worried about a highschool kid sticking firecrackers in my anus? I tend to be more of a proponent of accurate risk assessment because that generally leads to less stupidity in the long run. There are always unpredictable one-off scenarios, but what your reliance on these outlandish scenarios to make your point is disturbing. Yes, if you actually have a real fear that someone from school may kill you the sensible thing would be to stop going to school (thereby entirely avoiding any scenario where you might be killed) until the situation is resolved. It would also encourage authorities to take the situation a lot more seriously, increasing the chances of a peaceful resolution. Got any particular sources you'd like me to read? I'll be happy to read it. All that matters is if he feared for his life AT THE TIME OF THE ASSAULT. He didn't neccesarily feel the same way before someone starting hitting him and telling him who knows what. | ||
|
Paperplane
Netherlands1823 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:57 LegendaryZ wrote: Not walking into the situation to begin with guarantees that you won't get pummeled in the first place and therefore makes the bully irrelevant. Drawing a knife in the middle of a fight, however, is gambling because: A) You've placed yourself in the situation to begin with. B) You're assuming that the other guy doesn't have a knife or a gun. C) You're assuming that if he does, he'll either be unable to use it or your weapon will win. D) You're assuming that you pulling out a weapon won't cause a panic reaction from him that could potentially end up with you hurt even more. Yeah, that seems like way more of a gamble and a lot more assumptions to ride on than saying "I'm not going to go to school until either this guy is gone or I'm transferred." How is not walking into the situation an option? These bullies were never gonna leave him alone. | ||
|
BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:42 LegendaryZ wrote: How many people knowingly walk into an avoidable situation when they're genuinely afraid they might die? These bullies didn't jump him out of the blue. They were threatening him all day. This isn't a case of some random guy you don't know coming up to you and pointing a gun at you. It's that idiot in the class that says, "I'm going to kick your ass after school today." What part of this situation adds up in your mind? I'm seriously absolutely puzzled at your responses, seriously, you're basically saying "he probably wouldn't have died, he'd only be heavily injured, he should've just gotten beaten up for no other reason than to serve as a punch bag for the bully to vent his frustration". Seriously, what the fuck is going through your head? When 4 people surround you, hold you in place and start beating on you it isn't "right" to defend yourself? You're somehow at fault for carrying a knife with you when you are threatened, bullied and physically injured day after day? Do you think this kid had other options? Do you think he could've just ran off while he was surrounded by multiple kids and being pummeled on? Should he just not gotten off the school bus at his house, and what then? Should he just have sat out until they got off; which they likely wouldn't have until the last stop, when they were all forced off and he would be in a much worse position. Should he have ditched school for weeks hoping the bully forgets while getting into serious trouble, while probably not eleviating the problem at all, just delaying it? Tell adults again and again while they end up only making the situation worse? You've got absolutely no clue what situation he was in, yet you're making ridiculous judgements based on the ridiculous assumptions of how his bullies were probably just going to tickle him and that he had any options whatsoever not to confront him. It's just, quite frankly, absolutely ridiculous. Seriously, it's like you live in a fantasy land. | ||
|
hitthat
Poland2349 Posts
| ||
|
Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:32 LegendaryZ wrote: If could have a genuine fear that my life is potentially in danger if a police officer points his gun at me. I don't know what's going through his head or whether he's a good cop or a bad cop. Should I then pull out my own gun and start shooting in self defense? Of course not because that would be an incredibly stupid move given the increased likelihood of the encounter ending in a bad way. Even when backed into a corner, violence is not the end all be all solution nor is it your only option. You need to learn to make the smart decision. Sometimes the smart decision is violence when the potential danger of escalating the situation it outweighed by the benefits. This isn't such a scenario. If you have good reason to believe the cop is 'a bad cop' (ie they will shoot you while knowing that you haven't broken the law in any way.) and they pull a gun on you. Then you SHOULD shoot that cop (assuming you can shoot at them before they shoot you and you can't incapacitate them some other way.) | ||
| ||
