|
On January 11 2012 06:25 sunprince wrote:
You're the one making things black-and-white. In your fantasy world, violence is always wrong. We all disagree.
When did I ever say that violence was always wrong? I never said anything about right or wrong. Simply favorable and unfavorable. Since you have trouble with reading comprehension, let me spell it out for you:
People stay alive: Favorable outcome. Something we should strive for.
People die: Unfavorable outcome. Something we should try to avoid whenever possible.
There's the tl;dr for you.
|
It seems pretty obvious to me that this kid tried his best to avoid the bullies. He heard that they wanted to fight him so he got off the bus early and once they found him he tried to get away. It was only when they were punching him in the back of the head as he tried to escape that he resorted to violence.
The judge made the right decision.
|
On January 11 2012 06:28 Not_Computer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2012 06:08 kobrakai wrote:
Stabbing someone twelve times because you got hit in the head.... jesus christ.
Also, many of you American posters are saying it is common for students to carry knives... as young as 14 (or younger?). Is this just in run down inner cities or nation wide? Just in the slums/ghettos. I don't know of almost anyone that carries knives around where I live, but go into the poorer neighborhoods and the amount spikes. My friend from Toronto also said that nearly every school in his neighborhood has the same issues, and he started carrying a knife as well for self defense in case one was pulled on him. Which was amusing to me, since he was a huge nerd and slightly chubby. But it's all anecdotal evidence. Carrying a knife in Toronto for self defense can get you surrounded by police and shot repeatedly. Happened this past weekend actually. http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/1111682--siu-probes-shooting-of-man-at-weston-rd-plaza
Carrying a knife in front of police and refusing to put it away (presumably) is a completely different story.
|
On January 11 2012 06:19 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 05:54 Aevum wrote:
Can you reply to my argument LegendaryZ? Why is it the responsibility of the innocent to risk their lives when attacked without provocation or reason?
When you attack somebody, you forfeit your right to safety. You are compromising somebody else's, after all, are you not? Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. It's funny you say this. My martial arts teacher used to teach us to assume that anyone who ever attacks someone has automatically forfeited his right to life with that decision. I used to believe this for a while too since it seems to make sense. Then at some point, you realize how stupid that standard actually is and how terrible the world would be if people actually thought like that. Yes, you have a right to defend yourself from imminent threat. There is, however, the issue of proportional force and also the necessity to always keep in mind the consequences of your actions. Adrenaline and heat-of-the-moment emotions are of course an explanation, but they are not a justification for poor decision making. This is why I believe the victim's PERCEPTION of the threat is a terrible standard to go by because it's wildly inconsistent and varies from person to person. It's a very slippery slope you start going down when you start to justify ending lives simply because a mentally and emotionally compromised person believes himself to be in more danger than he may be in actuality. So someone comes up to me and punches me in the face. I don't know the guy, but he tells me that he's going to beat the shit out of me. Should I shoot him? Should I run? Should I just use my fists? You people make it all seem so frikking black and white as if violence should always beget violence. No, it shouldn't. There are numerous considerations to make in any given scenario and you can't live your life in a manner where you're always responding to a worst-possible-case scenario just because there's some unknown information. For those of you asking if he should have just stopped going to school, stop and think about what you would do in that situation. Is it your honest opinion that this situation could not have been handled in a better manner? Is a person drawing attention to the situation by refusing to go to school a worse outcome than someone dying? I know this is TL.net, but get your heads out of your asses because it's honestly disgusting to me as a member of the human race that you believe that this is an acceptable means of conflict resolution on any level. Even if you killed someone in self-defense, that's not something that should be celebrated. What the hell do you know about the other person? He could be a troubled soul in his own right who just found a bad outlet. He could have had some mental disability. You're all so quick to theorize about the victim's scenario, but you have absolutely no consideration for the aggressor's life situation. Contrary to popular opinion, not all bullies are bad people. They may have made bad choices in their life, but just like everyone else, they are just as deserving of a chance to grow up and mature as human beings. This isn't some bullshit martial arts class we're in. This is real life and taking lives is serious business as is violence in general. Go ahead with your bullshit celebrations and PM me if you want to have an actual discussion rather than the stupidity that has been posted here, but I'm done with this thread because I feel like I'm going to be physically ill after reading some of these childish comments.
Basically you think someone committing an assault SHOULD have a reasonable expectation of safety.
Wonderful; someone who is already in the process of committing a crime should not fear anything more than a bloody nose, while he is only limited by how far he wants to go. Because he may or may not have had a bad childhood.
And the bullying victim forfeited his right to do what he feels necessary because he was already in that situation. Since he was already there, he consented to the assault is basically what you're arguing.
You definitely won't be missed.
Edit: You didn't actually imply him potentially having a bad childhood was the reason for this expectation of safety. But his upbringing means nothing after the fact. Maybe it would explain his actions, but it doesn't make his death any less justified.
|
If he didn't stab the bully would he have died? I would think probably not. In which case its my opinion that it was unacceptable to KILL him. We can all say this bully was a jerk, but definitely not deserving of death. Atleast in Canada even murderers are not executed. There are numerous other ways to deal with the problem as well, at least he could have taken the beating, it is very very unlikely the bully would have killed him. This whole ratting out dilema is a real pain in the arse cause kids think its better to solve their problems like this than report it. The fact that he was willing and actually did kill the bully makes me think he is an even worse person then the bully. perhaps due to self defense he shouldnt be charged with murder but atleast something lesser like manslaughter so he can be sent to a mental instituition where he can get the help he clearly needs.
|
On January 11 2012 06:28 LegendaryZ wrote:People stay alive: Favorable outcome. Something we should strive for.
People die: Unfavorable outcome. Something we should try to avoid whenever possible.
There's the tl;dr for you.
Here's a tl;dr for you:
Victim doesn't defend themselves (victim might die, bully is safe): unfavorable outcome.
Victim does defend themselves (bully might die, victim is safe): favorable outcome.
Alternatively: If every bully lived in fear that one of their victims might kill them, the world would be a better place.
|
On January 11 2012 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:28 Not_Computer wrote:On January 11 2012 06:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2012 06:08 kobrakai wrote:
Stabbing someone twelve times because you got hit in the head.... jesus christ.
Also, many of you American posters are saying it is common for students to carry knives... as young as 14 (or younger?). Is this just in run down inner cities or nation wide? Just in the slums/ghettos. I don't know of almost anyone that carries knives around where I live, but go into the poorer neighborhoods and the amount spikes. My friend from Toronto also said that nearly every school in his neighborhood has the same issues, and he started carrying a knife as well for self defense in case one was pulled on him. Which was amusing to me, since he was a huge nerd and slightly chubby. But it's all anecdotal evidence. Carrying a knife in Toronto for self defense can get you surrounded by police and shot repeatedly. Happened this past weekend actually. http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/1111682--siu-probes-shooting-of-man-at-weston-rd-plaza Carrying a knife in front of police and refusing to put it away (presumably) is a completely different story.
He said the man who was shot moments later had his hands by his sides and no weapon was visible.
Karathanasis questioned why police didn’t detain a number of witnesses from the area near the busy Tim Hortons and Beer Store.
“Everybody that was really close to the shooting — a good dozen people … they were told to leave” the area, he said.
|
Congratulations to Jorge and props to him for standing up for himself, and it is good to see that the US justice system isn't just about convicting innocents and acquitting criminals.
|
On January 11 2012 06:35 Not_Computer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2012 06:28 Not_Computer wrote:On January 11 2012 06:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2012 06:08 kobrakai wrote:
Stabbing someone twelve times because you got hit in the head.... jesus christ.
Also, many of you American posters are saying it is common for students to carry knives... as young as 14 (or younger?). Is this just in run down inner cities or nation wide? Just in the slums/ghettos. I don't know of almost anyone that carries knives around where I live, but go into the poorer neighborhoods and the amount spikes. My friend from Toronto also said that nearly every school in his neighborhood has the same issues, and he started carrying a knife as well for self defense in case one was pulled on him. Which was amusing to me, since he was a huge nerd and slightly chubby. But it's all anecdotal evidence. Carrying a knife in Toronto for self defense can get you surrounded by police and shot repeatedly. Happened this past weekend actually. http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/1111682--siu-probes-shooting-of-man-at-weston-rd-plaza Carrying a knife in front of police and refusing to put it away (presumably) is a completely different story. Show nested quote +He said the man who was shot moments later had his hands by his sides and no weapon was visible. Show nested quote +Karathanasis questioned why police didn’t detain a number of witnesses from the area near the busy Tim Hortons and Beer Store.
“Everybody that was really close to the shooting — a good dozen people … they were told to leave” the area, he said.
He was across the street, and when the actual shooting happened, he wasn't even looking. Also, the man was carrying a knife earlier in plain site, hence the reason the cops were called, so you can't really make assumptions from this story.
|
On January 11 2012 06:33 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
If he didn't stab the bully would he have died? I would think probably not. In which case its my opinion that it was unacceptable to KILL him. We can all say this bully was a jerk, but definitely not deserving of death. Atleast in Canada even murderers are not executed. There are numerous other ways to deal with the problem as well, at least he could have taken the beating, it is very very unlikely the bully would have killed him. This whole ratting out dilema is a real pain in the arse cause kids think its better to solve their problems like this than report it. The fact that he was willing and actually did kill the bully makes me think he is an even worse person then the bully. perhaps due to self defense he shouldnt be charged with murder but atleast something lesser like manslaughter so he can be sent to a mental instituition where he can get the help he clearly needs.
How do you know the bully wouldn't have killed him? You don't. Yeah, he probably wouldn't have, but you just don't know so it's impossible to base judgement on that. And if you know anything, you know that when kids talk to teachers/principals, that can make the situation even worse, which is why kids don't do it. You don't really know what went on here so you shouldn't be judging the situation or anyone. You definitely cannot tell the kid clearly needs help. If someone is going to attack you, you have every right to defend yourself, and in Florida, you can do it with any means necessary. That's the law.
|
When they say 12 stabs, they count all the superficial cuts, only few were fatal. It isn't like the dude stared him down and slowly stabbed him to death 12 times in the heart. The guy was hyped on adrenaline and probably slashing all over the place.
No sympathy for the bully, sucks for his family though.
|
It's obviously not murder. Imperfect defense can be argued.
|
@LambtrOn I am pretty sure many people think about perchance killing their bullies, but i'd be willing to say that most people wouldnt have the stomach to actually kill someone. Even in the Military they have to train people mentally to take the shot, and this is even when they are shooting at a guy who is 100% trying to kill them back . thats why i think he has problems.
|
On January 11 2012 06:49 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
@LambtrOn I am pretty sure many people think about perchance killing their bullies, but i'd be willing to say that most people wouldnt have the stomach to actually kill someone. Even in the Military they have to train people mentally to take the shot, and this is even when they are shooting at a guy who is 100% trying to kill them back by. thats why i think he has problems.
This wasn't a premiditated murder... Most people can kill in self defense if they fear for their life enough. And you don't even know he intended to kill.
|
On January 11 2012 06:28 Not_Computer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:11 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 11 2012 06:08 kobrakai wrote:
Stabbing someone twelve times because you got hit in the head.... jesus christ.
Also, many of you American posters are saying it is common for students to carry knives... as young as 14 (or younger?). Is this just in run down inner cities or nation wide? Just in the slums/ghettos. I don't know of almost anyone that carries knives around where I live, but go into the poorer neighborhoods and the amount spikes. My friend from Toronto also said that nearly every school in his neighborhood has the same issues, and he started carrying a knife as well for self defense in case one was pulled on him. Which was amusing to me, since he was a huge nerd and slightly chubby. But it's all anecdotal evidence. Carrying a knife in Toronto for self defense can get you surrounded by police and shot repeatedly. Happened this past weekend actually. http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/1111682--siu-probes-shooting-of-man-at-weston-rd-plaza
That doesn't change the fact that people still do it and have been doing it for as long as twenty years from my experience and guess what. I'm in one of the nicest areas of the Toronto and even then we're not immune to such shit.
|
Yeah this happened in my local community and I knew people who were shocked over the death of the bully and had known him. Still, everyone pretty much agreed that the defining factor would be if the victim had brought a knife to defend himself from a known future attack or not. I think it would have been much different if the victim had attacked the bully first with the knife and without the knowledge of a future attack.
It really sucks though, because in the end one person died and the other now has to deal with someone's blood on their hands and the reputation of that throughout the rest of their early life.
|
On January 11 2012 06:38 Asshat wrote:
Congratulations to Jorge and props to him for standing up for himself, and it is good to see that the US justice system isn't just about convicting innocents and acquitting criminals.
Yeah, he is pretty badass. But too bad the justice system promotes cowardness and abuse. Imagine this happened in the 60's? The bully's parents would be sad, but no one else would even care. They would congratulate the victim for standing up for himself. But of course he only had to do this because he would be either on the edge of sucide, and its either kill or be killed for his situation.
|
On January 11 2012 06:29 SnipedSoul wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me that this kid tried his best to avoid the bullies. He heard that they wanted to fight him so he got off the bus early and once they found him he tried to get away. It was only when they were punching him in the back of the head as he tried to escape that he resorted to violence.
The judge made the right decision.
You're correct, the judge made the right decision. But don't lose sight of the fact that this is only ok in Florida because of the laws there.
I'm a bit upset that the stabber is getting off penalty-free. I don't have the details and haven't looked through the thread, but if it was a pocket knife it probably took more than one stab to kill the attacker. Imho, one stab would have been enough to stop the conflict. I don't know everything that was going through the stabber's head, but he took a life. Whether that's what Florida intended when passing their Stand Your Ground law will become evident in the next few weeks if it is altered or not.
My apologies for not using names, I'm bad for remembering. I don't mean to be disrespectful
|
On January 11 2012 06:59 Calm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:29 SnipedSoul wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me that this kid tried his best to avoid the bullies. He heard that they wanted to fight him so he got off the bus early and once they found him he tried to get away. It was only when they were punching him in the back of the head as he tried to escape that he resorted to violence.
The judge made the right decision. You're correct, the judge made the right decision. But don't lose sight of the fact that this is only ok in Florida because of the laws there. I'm a bit upset that the stabber is getting off penalty-free. I don't have the details and haven't looked through the thread, but if it was a pocket knife it probably took more than one stab to kill the attacker. Imho, one stab would have been enough to stop the conflict. I don't know everything that was going through the stabber's head, but he took a life. Whether that's what Florida intended when passing their Stand Your Ground law will become evident in the next few weeks if it is altered or not. My apologies for not using names, I'm bad for remembering. I don't mean to be disrespectful
One stab is not enough to stop someone from going rambo on you when their adrenaline is running. Just youtube some fights where people getting stabbed with knives doesnt even seem to get phased.
Victim was put in a horrible situation, he tried to get out of it, dealt with it for a year. And in the end the aggressor paid the the ultimate price. People also need to realize that the victim has to deal with this incident for the rest of his life, how do you think he feels? Being forced in a IMPOSSIBLE situation. Kids will be kids though, and these things happen.
|
On January 11 2012 06:59 Calm wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 11 2012 06:29 SnipedSoul wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me that this kid tried his best to avoid the bullies. He heard that they wanted to fight him so he got off the bus early and once they found him he tried to get away. It was only when they were punching him in the back of the head as he tried to escape that he resorted to violence.
The judge made the right decision. You're correct, the judge made the right decision. But don't lose sight of the fact that this is only ok in Florida because of the laws there. I'm a bit upset that the stabber is getting off penalty-free. I don't have the details and haven't looked through the thread, but if it was a pocket knife it probably took more than one stab to kill the attacker. Imho, one stab would have been enough to stop the conflict. I don't know everything that was going through the stabber's head, but he took a life. Whether that's what Florida intended when passing their Stand Your Ground law will become evident in the next few weeks if it is altered or not. My apologies for not using names, I'm bad for remembering. I don't mean to be disrespectful
What should the penalty be? I really don't think jail time would be meaningful because the kid isn't a threat to anyone unless they bully him for a year straight.
If anyone should be punished it should be the school for allowing this bullying to continue for an entire year. Students should feel safe at school and it's the school's job to provide a safe learning environment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
