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On January 11 2012 07:57 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:53 Whitewing wrote:On January 11 2012 07:16 shizna wrote:On January 11 2012 07:09 Percutio wrote:On January 11 2012 06:59 Calm wrote:On January 11 2012 06:29 SnipedSoul wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me that this kid tried his best to avoid the bullies. He heard that they wanted to fight him so he got off the bus early and once they found him he tried to get away. It was only when they were punching him in the back of the head as he tried to escape that he resorted to violence.
The judge made the right decision. You're correct, the judge made the right decision. But don't lose sight of the fact that this is only ok in Florida because of the laws there. I'm a bit upset that the stabber is getting off penalty-free. I don't have the details and haven't looked through the thread, but if it was a pocket knife it probably took more than one stab to kill the attacker. Imho, one stab would have been enough to stop the conflict. I don't know everything that was going through the stabber's head, but he took a life. Whether that's what Florida intended when passing their Stand Your Ground law will become evident in the next few weeks if it is altered or not. My apologies for not using names, I'm bad for remembering. I don't mean to be disrespectful See the problem with saying that is the lack of evidence that we have available that the judge did have. If it was much higher number of stabs than it would be harder to justify, but with 12 there could be a surprising amount of superficial cuts or cuts which actually wouldn't stop the attack seeing as how there could be any combination of fatal, damaging, and superficial wounds. Additionally the actual circumstances of the fight aren't clear for people not involved in the case. If the victim was punched in the back of the head and knocked to the ground by the bully then a lot of wounds could happen quickly if the victim was now panicked, injured, and scared. Obviously the judge seems to think that it wasn't some premeditated murder or went beyond some kind of defense, especially by Florida law. indeed... personally i have no problem with him carrying a knife. i took a knife to school, lots of kids took knives to school. it was the 'cool' thing for my generation. i remember someone holding a knife to my throat in school, but i knew him well enough to know that he wouldn't cut me (he wasn't provoked at all, he did it for kicks). obviously in this case we don't have all of the facts. if the kid got the knife out and the bully saw the knife and continued to fight then i could see it as an accident. but there's no evidence to suggest this (and it would be rather insane of the bully), it looks like a concealed knife which caught the bully completely by suprise... there's no getting away from the fact that the kid wanted the bully DEAD... nothing less.wishing someone dead is possibly the worst thing you could ever do... bullying is not comparable to murder. If you read the article, you'd understand that the kid tried really hard to avoid a fight and didn't want to do it. The bully kept pushing. And therefore is was ok to fucking kill the bully with a knive? Are you serious?... How can you defend that kid... Yeah, the bullying should have been stopped, but the moment that kid stabbed even once he should get punished for fucking stabbing someone with a knive and not taking a "normal" alternative route.
It might seem that simple to you, but obviously it did not to the court. It seems like this kid was left without an alternative and defended himself from a fight he tried to avoid. Sure he defended himself with a weapon, but it isn't like he was the attacker or trying to fight at all.
When someone is being attacked by three people and starts swinging a knife they can cause fatal damage without the teh attack stopping immediately or even quickly for that matter, so the fact that the attacker died isn't automatically some kind of murderous intent.
On January 11 2012 08:05 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Defending yourself rather than expecting someone else to do it for you is somewhat of a foreign thing to Westerners who aren't American.
Non-Westerners don't seem to have much trouble with it, though.
All the ridiculous manufactured self-righteous indignation going on is pretty funny. He was backed into a corner and he went into fight-or-flight mode and he fought. Good for him and too bad he's going to live the rest of his life knowing he killed someone. Poor kid.
Agreed, a lose lose situation for both parties.
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On January 11 2012 08:05 Velr wrote:
Yeah, and i don't give a fuck about how the law is in Florida and i didn't for the last 20 pages.
I give a fuck about so many people here thinking somehow it is ok for that kid to kill it's bully with a knive and walking away whiteout any punishment.
Laws are subject to change. Laws also don't make morally "right or wrong".
Well normally something is law because the majority of people agree with it, as you yourself have seen with this particular law. Its not ok to kill a bully with a knife. Its ok to use deadly force if you believe you might come under serious harm.
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I agree. Self defense was much more important than letting those bullies beat the crap at out him and potentially kill him instead of being killed. I also understand the rage the bully victim must have been feeling all those days, weeks and months of taunting, I'd stab the guy for anything out of pure rage and indignity.
He must have felt really REALLY good after ending the fight in such a humiliating and bloody fashion.
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Fighting is one thing. I fought my share of "big" guys and ate the hits of the "too big" guys...
Swinging a knive in a way that you kill someone and "connect" multiple times (12?!) with it is something entirely diffrent than "fighting" or "self defense". Thats most likely "revenge"...
Take a Knive and stab something 12 times... That takes time, it's not some "reflex"...
And yes, this is a "Western" thing.. Because thats one of the things that separates a modern society from eye for an eye and other barbarian middle age bullshit.
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if he was not intending to kill the bully why did he use the knife, surely he could have tried to defend himself with his fists and perhaps avoided the unneccesary loss of life that occured. I still dont like that people are fine with kids walking around with weapons, but i suppose its somewhat justifiable if only used as a deterent. Killing someone is well, killing someone. and here i was thinking humans were getting past the violent savage state of mind
@sorrowptoss i dont think your supposed to be happy when you kill someone
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On January 11 2012 08:09 Velr wrote:
Fighting is one thing. I fought my share of "big" guys and ate the hits of the "too big" guys...
Swinging a knive in a way that you kill someone and "connect" multiple times (12?!) with it is something entirely diffrent than "fighting" or "self defense". Thats most likely "revenge"...
Take a Knive and stab something 12 times... That takes time, it's not some "reflex"...
And yes, this is a "Western" thing.. Because thats one of the things that separates a modern society from eye for an eye and other barbarian middle age bullshit.
Please read some of the previous comments. Ou have no idea what your talking about.
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On January 11 2012 08:09 Velr wrote:
Fighting is one thing. I fought my share of "big" guys and ate the hits of the "too big" guys...
Swinging a knive in a way that you kill someone and "connect" multiple times with it is something entirely diffrent than "fighting".
And yes, this is a "Western" thing.. Because thats one of the things that separates a modern society from eye for an eye and other barbarian middle age bullshit.
Yah consider yourself lucky to live in a place where people have more respect for life. Over here though its very rare to just have a Good Ol Fight that does not resort in serious injury, and some times death. I'm sure your school did not have metal detectors, and you never had friends who had been stabbed or shot at. This is the reality of our situation.
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Than you probably should change your situation by fucking not allow kids murder other kids with knives whiteout punishment, thats just cowboy mentality which brings nothing good ever.
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On January 11 2012 08:14 Velr wrote:
Than you probably should change your situation by fucking not allow kids murder other kids with knives whiteout punishment, thats just cowboy mentality which brings nothing good ever.
His punishment is he has to endure what he has done for the rest of his life. Unlike his attacker the victim gets no joy out of hurting someone. If the victim had died then the attacker would have been punished accordingly.
You might be having trouble distinguishing a fight between two kids and one kid violently attacking another with no cause.
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On January 11 2012 08:14 Velr wrote:
Than you probably should change your situation by fucking not allow kids murder other kids with knives whiteout punishment, thats just cowboy mentality which brings nothing good ever.
Yup better to let them get beaten to death.... oh wait....
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I really can't comprehend why some people in this thread think that carrying a knife means he intended to kill the bully. I carry a knife everywhere I go. Does that mean that every time I leave my house I'm planning on killing someone? Of course not. Why do i carry a knife you may ask? Because I've been jumped by 4-5 people before and I'm 5 feet 4 inches, 130 pounds. If I get attacked by any more then 2 people, I'm fucked. This kid was right do what he did. He was being threatened by multiple people and then was attacked. He protected his own life. Yes it sucks that he had to take somebody elses life in order to do that but, sometimes there is just no way around that.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 11 2012 08:12 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
if he was not intending to kill the bully why did he use the knife, surely he could have tried to defend himself with his fists and perhaps avoided the unneccesary loss of life that occured. I still dont like that people are fine with kids walking around with weapons, but i suppose its somewhat justifiable if only used as a deterent. Killing someone is well, killing someone. and here i was thinking humans were getting past the violent savage state of mind
@sorrowptoss i dont think your supposed to be happy when you kill someone
You would prefer that the victim put himself at further risk so that the attacker's risk is reduced. I don't get it at all.
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On January 11 2012 08:12 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
if he was not intending to kill the bully why did he use the knife, surely he could have tried to defend himself with his fists and perhaps avoided the unneccesary loss of life that occured. I still dont like that people are fine with kids walking around with weapons, but i suppose its somewhat justifiable if only used as a deterent. Killing someone is well, killing someone. and here i was thinking humans were getting past the violent savage state of mind
@sorrowptoss i dont think your supposed to be happy when you kill someone
I'd suggest that he used a knife because its easy to carry around with you and have easy access to, and its a lot more effective than the fists of a bullied kid vs an attacker. Like why do u use an oven instead of a fire? Coz its fucking better at cooking, that doesnt mean you want the shit to burn. Dont be so dense and claim that he obviously wanted the bully dead.
On a side note, the easiest way to avoid the uneccesary loss of life would be for the bully not be a bully in the first place. Two wrongs dont make a right, but one wrong can make another wrong a lot more reasonable.
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On January 11 2012 08:14 Velr wrote:
Than you probably should change your situation by fucking not allow kids murder other kids with knives whiteout punishment, thats just cowboy mentality which brings nothing good ever.
If he had taken a knife with the intention to go and stab the bully to death, he would have been punished for murder. That isn't what happen. Most countries have these sort of laws in one form of another. Please get off your high horse.
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But you are instilling kids with the wrong state of mind, even if he has no joy for killing someone he sees it as a solution, when nothing else worked. You need to implement a better solution to stem these incidents off earlier. its almost like these types of laws exist because people beleive violence is the solution and therefore there should be no problem with it. After all why would you let someone kill someone else to stop their problem unless there was no better method of resolving conflict?
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
Unfortunate situation but I can't fault the kid for protecting himself. He never should have been put in that position.
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And yes, this is a "Western" thing.. Because thats one of the things that separates a modern society from eye for an eye and other barbarian middle age bullshit.
Defending yourself isn't barbarism.
Thinking it is is a sign of a degenerated moral system.
But you are instilling kids with the wrong state of mind, even if he has no joy for killing someone he sees it as a solution, when nothing else worked. You need to implement a better solution to stem these incidents off earlier. its almost like these types of laws exist because people beleive violence is the solution and therefore there should be no problem with it. After all why would you let someone kill someone else to stop their problem unless there was no better method of resolving conflict?
Fighting someone with 2 other people forcing you to stay there and fight him with you not knowing if they are going to jump in or not is a situation where a reasonable person would fear for his life or his long-term physical well-being. There is no better method of resolving forceful conflict than with overwhelming force, especially when it's an unfair fight against you.
These types of laws exist because some societies recognize that sometimes people will use violence against you and you have no choice but to react with violence.
Other societies allow burglars to sue their victims if they get hurt while burgling their home or business, or charge people with murder for defending themselves. I know which one I think is more moral, the one that puts responsibility on the person who initiates violence or harm against someone else, not the one that punishes everybody without rhyme or reason.
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Swinging a knive in a way that you kill someone and "connect" multiple times (12?!) with it is something entirely diffrent than "fighting" or "self defense". Thats most likely "revenge"...
Take a Knive and stab something 12 times... That takes time, it's not some "reflex"...
You probably don't realise that "12 cuts" count small cuts as well. He did not directly stab the victim 12 times as you are imagining. He was likely swinging his knife after the attacker had already engaged and they had surrounded him. Swinging your knife and cutting someone a couple of times with the majority of cuts being relatively minor doesn't stop them from beating you when they're hyped up with adrenaline at all, it is not unlikely in the slightest that all 12 of these cuts were necessary until the bully stopped attacking.
if he was not intending to kill the bully why did he use the knife, surely he could have tried to defend himself with his fists and perhaps avoided the unneccesary loss of life that occured. I still dont like that people are fine with kids walking around with weapons, but i suppose its somewhat justifiable if only used as a deterent. Killing someone is well, killing someone. and here i was thinking humans were getting past the violent savage state of mind
Yes, I'm sure a kid being bullied could've stood up to a bully with his friends nearby using just his fists, right? No problem at all. If you're looking for someone to blame for being violent, blame the bully, not the victim. He tried everything he possibly could to avoid the fight; even in the fight he took a punch before taking up his weapon, he was extremely non-violent. The bully provoked everything, prevented him from escaping, initiated the violence and made self defense necessary to ensure his safety. He was the one being violent. Self-defense is a necessity against people physically threatening you, telling yourself otherwise is ridiculous.
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On January 11 2012 08:24 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
But you are instilling kids with the wrong state of mind, even if he has no joy for killing someone he sees it as a solution, when nothing else worked. You need to implement a better solution to stem these incidents off earlier. its almost like these types of laws exist because people beleive violence is the solution and therefore there should be no problem with it. After all why would you let someone kill someone else to stop their problem unless there was no better method of resolving conflict?
The sad fact is that everything else failed and this is the last resort with one of the worst possible results.
On January 11 2012 07:06 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:59 Calm wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 11 2012 06:29 SnipedSoul wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me that this kid tried his best to avoid the bullies. He heard that they wanted to fight him so he got off the bus early and once they found him he tried to get away. It was only when they were punching him in the back of the head as he tried to escape that he resorted to violence.
The judge made the right decision. You're correct, the judge made the right decision. But don't lose sight of the fact that this is only ok in Florida because of the laws there. I'm a bit upset that the stabber is getting off penalty-free. I don't have the details and haven't looked through the thread, but if it was a pocket knife it probably took more than one stab to kill the attacker. Imho, one stab would have been enough to stop the conflict. I don't know everything that was going through the stabber's head, but he took a life. Whether that's what Florida intended when passing their Stand Your Ground law will become evident in the next few weeks if it is altered or not. My apologies for not using names, I'm bad for remembering. I don't mean to be disrespectful If anyone should be punished it should be the school for allowing this bullying to continue for an entire year. Students should feel safe at school and it's the school's job to provide a safe learning environment.
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On January 11 2012 08:24 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
But you are instilling kids with the wrong state of mind, even if he has no joy for killing someone he sees it as a solution, when nothing else worked. You need to implement a better solution to stem these incidents off earlier. its almost like these types of laws exist because people beleive violence is the solution and therefore there should be no problem with it. After all why would you let someone kill someone else to stop their problem unless there was no better method of resolving conflict?
What you say only works in theory. In reality when you are put in that situation your rational though goes out the window. When you feel like your life my be on the line is when you revert back to an animal. The only thing that matters at that moment is survival. This is how you work as a animal on this planet good luck trying to change it.
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