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On January 10 2012 21:01 sulliwan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 20:38 S_SienZ wrote:On January 10 2012 20:29 isleyofthenorth wrote:
I feel ashamed after reading some more in this thread replies like "He had it coming" "Doesent matter he's dead, he was a worthless person" "He was acting in self defense and tried to avoid conflict before his manslaughter, therefor he's 100% innocent"
I facepalm at humanity even here at TL, where sanity and intelligence is pretty highly concentrated Knee jerk reactions and sticking to absolute sweeping statements like "Killing is always wrong" as truth, isn't intelligence. Bullies usually come from severely broken families and are abused themselves. Statements which dehumanize someone and don't stop to consider things from another point of view are always ignorant. "Kill all bullies, they are human scum" is not the same as "Yes, the victim in these circumstances used a justified amount of force as response". It's the first kind of statement, of which there are lots in this thread, that are appalling, not the second kind.
Now you're just bringing in useless assumptions and generalizations. We're talking about the judge's decision in light of information that we do know. Any speculation is just completely worthless to the discussion here.
The only thing in contention seems to be "Would a reasonable 14 year old in that position have anticipated grevious bodily harm (the standard courts use to accept the use of a potentially fatal response)?" of which the judge, and quite a few TLers, myself included agree on "yes".
This is the legal system, this isn't Oprah or Dr.Phil.
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how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa?
User was warned for this post
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On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa?
It's justified because the kids life was endanger. He tried everything he could to avoid the confrontation and used deadly force as a last resort. It is ridiculous to think that that kid should have just cowered on the ground and accepted a beating.
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On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa?
if it was'nt, then every kid in the USA could have their own human punching bags without any consequence.
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On January 10 2012 21:26 taitanik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 16:56 nennx wrote:While I agree to the majority of your post, there is no telling what will happen to you during a physical fight of this nature. There is no way that the bully victim will know how far the bully will go to in fighting him, so he took his own actions to defend himself. You can always criticize what happens after the actual event, but when you are placed right in it, you only have seconds to defend yourself. Stabbing someone 12 times is not an appropiate action for defending yourself from someone who is unnarmed. No one he should get away with absolutely no criminal penalties (I might agree that a murder charge would be too much), but our laws are so fucked up thats whats going to happen. maybe he thought that if he would stab him 1 time the other guy would still be able to beat him up even harder so he didint take any chances :D
If you're getting beaten up and losing your mind from the hits I don't think it makes a difference for you to stab once or 12 times, not saying it's normal but I doubt the stabs where in made in an intent to kill the other kid.
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On January 10 2012 22:01 Stress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? It's justified because the kids life was endanger. He tried everything he could to avoid the confrontation and used deadly force as a last resort. It is ridiculous to think that that kid should have just cowered on the ground and accepted a beating.
Agreed.
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On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa?
He wasn't tried in a federal court. Try to keep the "zomg USA is stoopid" comments to yourself. srsly
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I dont even think the kid wanted to use deadly force in first place, but force to defend himself.
That the bully died due to the injury is sad, but should he just have taken the beating? Thats stupid, in every country you would have been allowed to defend yourself. The only thing I think should be punished is the fact the kid carried a knife with him.
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On January 10 2012 19:54 Silidons wrote:
Makes me sick so many people here think it is okay to kill another human over the fear of being beaten up. Remember that one bully in Australia? When the kid who was getting bullied just stood up for himself and dropped the bully? Yeah I bet the bully won't do shit anymore.
So many people in this thread are pathetic if you think that it is okay to kill someone over stupid shit like this. Worse comes to worse the kid could say "Look I have a fucking knife" and I bet you the other guy would have backed off. This isn't a life and death situation and almost every man is going to have to fight sometime or another in his lifetime, what ever happened to becoming a stronger person?
Could he have just shown the guy he was real by just slicing his leg or arm? Why did he actually have to fucking kill him? He's a fucking pathetic human.
Why do people comment without even bothering to find out what happened? Do you enjoy making yourselves look like idiots?
He DID show them he had a fucking knife. And this is not a grownup, this is a kid, a fucking child. It's not "just bullying" to a child, it's their fucking world. Remember how when you were a kid, something silly like being bad at sports meant you should just kill yourself?
Do you remember how it was being 14 years old? Every been bullied? Ever spent years looking at your feet because you're afraid you might provoke a bully if you look into their eyes? Whole years of being afraid to go to school because today might be the day they decide to show you who's boss?
It's regretful that the bully died, I suppose. From and adult, objective perspective he was just a dumb kid, who probably had his own problems. But to the kid he bullied he was the plague of every weekday. He was the fear, nausea and injustice of the whole world, and he deserved to die.
But I gotta tell you, in my opinion? At 17 you're pretty much done, that's who you're gonna be the rest of your life (most of your values are set anyway) and the absence of a guy that goes out of his way to fuck with someone else just for the fun of it will probably make the world a better place.
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On January 10 2012 22:14 Miss_Cleo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? He wasn't tried in a federal court. Try to keep the "zomg USA is stoopid" comments to yourself. srsly
yet it happened in the usa. and yet people say its in any way justified. i just cant see that happening in germany/france/uk etc.
"bowling for columbine" comes into my mind. seems pretty accurate.
saying the kid shouldnt be punished is discussable. but saying its justified and ok that HE KILLED HIM is totally insane in my opinion.
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On January 10 2012 21:01 sulliwan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 20:38 S_SienZ wrote:On January 10 2012 20:29 isleyofthenorth wrote:
I feel ashamed after reading some more in this thread replies like "He had it coming" "Doesent matter he's dead, he was a worthless person" "He was acting in self defense and tried to avoid conflict before his manslaughter, therefor he's 100% innocent"
I facepalm at humanity even here at TL, where sanity and intelligence is pretty highly concentrated Knee jerk reactions and sticking to absolute sweeping statements like "Killing is always wrong" as truth, isn't intelligence. Bullies usually come from severely broken families and are abused themselves. Statements which dehumanize someone and don't stop to consider things from another point of view are always ignorant. "Kill all bullies, they are human scum" is not the same as "Yes, the victim in these circumstances used a justified amount of force as response". It's the first kind of statement, of which there are lots in this thread, that are appalling, not the second kind.
Does family history of the bully really matter?
There is a serial killer in Ecuador, born to a whore, who has killed over 250 girls between the ages of 8 and 12, recently released from prison after serving 20 years. I don't think anyone would excuse him for his actions, despite the fact that he grew up with 7 siblings, listened to his mother servicing men a few feet away, and kicked out of home by his mother at the age of 10.
The point is: while the family history may be a partial cause of a bully/criminals actions, it is not an excuse. After all, claiming any sort of clemency based on family history is simply a case of trying to argue "my brain made me do it, its not my fault."
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Bully got what he deserved.
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On January 10 2012 22:20 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:14 Miss_Cleo wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? He wasn't tried in a federal court. Try to keep the "zomg USA is stoopid" comments to yourself. srsly yet it happened in the usa. and yet people say its in any way justified. i just cant see that happening in germany/france/uk etc. "bowling for columbine" comes into my mind. seems pretty accurate. saying the kid shouldnt be punished is discussable. but saying its justified and ok that HE KILLED HIM is totally insane in my opinion.
Alright. Next time you or your child is being bullied, just lay on the ground and take it. They'll go away eventually...right?
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Kid did what he had to do to keep himself safe. Weird that he had a knife on him, could be cause for pre-meditation. Although, if he was afraid for his life, I think he did the right thing.
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The bully got what he deserved. I just hope that Saavedra doesn't feel guilty.
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Sounds like it was actually legit self defense, so I don't see a problem. If you pick a fight with someone it's your own fault if you get killed.
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Yep. It's not like he used the knife until the last moment. He obviously didn't want it to come to this.
I openly admit I'm more cowardly and I'd probably just beat the hell out of a bully with a group of friends in a dark corner instead of feeling danger and being opressed.
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i don't like this kind of story.
you can't justify anyone KILLING someone else in self defense... when they had a weapon like a gun or knife or baseball bat etc etc against someone with no weapon... can't you go for a non-lethal attack?
these stories always end in the 'victim' shooting, stabbing or beating the 'offender' excessively and often to death... imo it's revenge MURDER and they get away with it.
i know who's to blame if that kid gets into a drunken brawl later in life (which can happen to anyone), then stabs another unarmed guy to death.
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I really dont think that killing him was justified, but given the current circumstances such as his age at the time I can see why he's not being charged for anything, shame...
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On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa?
Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something.
One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody.
Justice in US is ridiculous.
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EPT
