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On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous.
It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead!
Grow up.
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On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous.
Yet, in the US, those two men will never have the option to break into someone else's house with knives.
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On January 10 2012 20:31 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 19:56 Regime wrote:On January 10 2012 15:11 HardMacro wrote:
Yah, the intent to survive and defend oneself after a whole year of both threats of and actual physical violence.
I'm sure when he's getting punched in the back of the head, he's perfectly able to stop time, run away a few hundred meters, then finally call the police. obviously u have no common sense, if sum1 is being bullied for a whole year how is that not enough time to call the police. carrying a knife to "defend" yourself is illigal in every civilised country. ppl put bully and victim in a scene and if its the bully its a crime if its the victim its ok. wat about the parents who lost their son bcos of a pycho child with a knife. Name one civilized country that has laws against carrying a knife. I have been a bully victim, attack by a group of them at once. Having been bullied I simpithize with the guy who killed the bully. If I had a knife when a group of bullys attacked me in school I probably kill him too. I didn't though and instead broke his nose and gave him a concussion. Norway. No knifes, no nothing.
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Actually most countries in europe including the most developed ones have laws against carrying weapons ^^
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On January 10 2012 22:20 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 21:01 sulliwan wrote:On January 10 2012 20:38 S_SienZ wrote:On January 10 2012 20:29 isleyofthenorth wrote:
I feel ashamed after reading some more in this thread replies like "He had it coming" "Doesent matter he's dead, he was a worthless person" "He was acting in self defense and tried to avoid conflict before his manslaughter, therefor he's 100% innocent"
I facepalm at humanity even here at TL, where sanity and intelligence is pretty highly concentrated Knee jerk reactions and sticking to absolute sweeping statements like "Killing is always wrong" as truth, isn't intelligence. Bullies usually come from severely broken families and are abused themselves. Statements which dehumanize someone and don't stop to consider things from another point of view are always ignorant. "Kill all bullies, they are human scum" is not the same as "Yes, the victim in these circumstances used a justified amount of force as response". It's the first kind of statement, of which there are lots in this thread, that are appalling, not the second kind. Does family history of the bully really matter? There is a serial killer in Ecuador, born to a whore, who has killed over 250 girls between the ages of 8 and 12, recently released from prison after serving 20 years. I don't think anyone would excuse him for his actions, despite the fact that he grew up with 7 siblings, listened to his mother servicing men a few feet away, and kicked out of home by his mother at the age of 10. The point is: while the family history may be a partial cause of a bully/criminals actions, it is not an excuse. After all, claiming any sort of clemency based on family history is simply a case of trying to argue "my brain made me do it, its not my fault."
Of course it's not an excuse. My point was that there are plenty of knee-jerk responses in the thread from either side. "He had it coming, I hope all bullies get stabbed" is just as wrong as "Killing is always wrong and the stabber should be punished". The first shows a lack of humanity, the second is dogma.
Personally, I don't think there are enough details presented in the article to make a judgment either way. So if the court decided it was justified, it probably was. I think the most reasonable discussion would be about what you can do to avoid something like this happening in the first place.
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In the US there are 22 states that have the Stand Your Ground law.
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On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up.
does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs?
or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!"
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On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up.
That's really not the problem. The police didn't tell her to warn them, and they didn't know she had a riffle. These guys were more than wrong, but the manslaughter could have very well been avoided. When she shot the guy, the other one left running. I guess the life of someone doesn't matter that much if he is committing a crime after all.
On January 10 2012 22:30 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. Yet, in the US, those two men will never have the option to break into someone else's house with knives.
Great. Another option is to do death penalty for everybody who does anything wrong. Then you are sure there is no recidivism.
You realize that you have proportionally ten times more prisoners than any European country? And you'll tell me your justice system is not completely fucked up?
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On January 10 2012 22:20 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:14 Miss_Cleo wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? He wasn't tried in a federal court. Try to keep the "zomg USA is stoopid" comments to yourself. srsly yet it happened in the usa. and yet people say its in any way justified. i just cant see that happening in germany/france/uk etc. "bowling for columbine" comes into my mind. seems pretty accurate. saying the kid shouldnt be punished is discussable. but saying its justified and ok that HE KILLED HIM is totally insane in my opinion.
Defending yourself with lethal force when you believe you will DIE if you do not use lethal force is "totally insane"?
Of course taking human life is inexcusable in any way shape or form, but if you were given the choice to kill or be killed which would you choose?
Perhaps you're a saint or a martyr (or a troll) to a frivolous pointless ideal, but this child obviously wasn't.
If you don't think life and death bullying don't happen in any first world country you're an idiot. More over, the United States is a country of immigrants and never ending lower classes because of it. You can never really put the US in a scale with other developed nations because of the huge constant influx of immigrants from un/underdeveloped nations...
Saying you would have stabbed the bully but in a nonlethal place is idiotic. Saying you would have beaten the bully and run is likewise idiotic. Saying you would run is just insulting to the child who will be scarred for the rest of his life. Such clear thinking and physical prowess are in a different dimension from what this child could feasibly achieve.
EDIT: Even saying you would call the police is really just running away from a problem that others can't really resolve for you.
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On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!"
It's very difficult to aim at the legs on a moving target under such a circumstance. Or do you think everyone is a trained sharpshooter?
Why do you think police officers are trained to aim at the chest? It's way too difficult otherwise, and you'll just get yourself killed.
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On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!"
*sigh*
A woman with her infant and a shotgun sure is in the perfect state of mind to coordinate a means to ensure that intruders are both incapacitated as well as still living, even though it would mean increasing the likelihood that she or her child would be at risk.
Okay.
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On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!"
Assuming the woman had the lighting, skill, and presence of mind to aim for the legs... Even then, with a rifle hitting someone in the legs can be lethal as well, and if they have fire arms too... well... shooting in the legs just doesn't cut it now does it?
Not every American is a Navy SEAL, bro...
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On January 10 2012 22:38 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!" It's very difficult to aim at the legs on a moving target under such a circumstance. Or do you think everyone is a trained sharpshooter? Why do you think police officers are trained to aim at the chest? It's way too difficult otherwise, and you'll just get yourself killed.
Do you realize the thieves ignored she was armed?
Nobody breaks into a house knowing someone is waiting them with a riffle behind the door.
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On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up.
So one person dying is better than some things get stolen before the police arrives?
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On January 10 2012 22:38 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!" It's very difficult to aim at the legs on a moving target under such a circumstance. Or do you think everyone is a trained sharpshooter? Why do you think police officers are trained to aim at the chest? It's way too difficult otherwise, and you'll just get yourself killed.
lol, now you're assuming that the average burglar would rather charge towards a loaded gun than flee for his life.
i think you take zombie movies too seriously.
these people you call a victim.... i seriously worry about their value of human life. imo there are VERY few things worse than death. death means everything you've seen, experienced and learned in your lifetime is erased... the only people you're punishing are the family/friends of the deceased - who likely had no control over the situation.
if you can justify taking another human life in respinse to the sort of relaxed semi-threatening conditions you're advocating then i think you need to have your head examined.
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On January 10 2012 22:20 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:14 Miss_Cleo wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? He wasn't tried in a federal court. Try to keep the "zomg USA is stoopid" comments to yourself. srsly yet it happened in the usa. and yet people say its in any way justified. i just cant see that happening in germany/france/uk etc. "bowling for columbine" comes into my mind. seems pretty accurate. saying the kid shouldnt be punished is discussable. but saying its justified and ok that HE KILLED HIM is totally insane in my opinion.
Yeah, except for the part where in Columbine 15 people were massacred by crazed gunmen. Besides that little detail, the kid using a knife to defend himself while being attacked by a group of bullies is basically a Columbine 2.
I think the kid has been punished enough by being driven to the point where he has to stab a person. He also has to live with the fact that he has killed another human being, which is a traumatic experience. Also, the courts didn't say it was "justified". He wasn't legally charged with murder, because the judge decided that it was self-defense. He wasn't given a fucking medal from President Obama for killing him. Why would you imprison someone who has broken no law? I don't really know German/France/UK law so I can't really comment on that part.
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On January 10 2012 22:38 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!" It's very difficult to aim at the legs on a moving target under such a circumstance. Or do you think everyone is a trained sharpshooter? Why do you think police officers are trained to aim at the chest? It's way too difficult otherwise, and you'll just get yourself killed.
Police are trained to shoot at the area of greatest body mass, which is the chest, to minimize the chance of missing and accidentally shooting someone behind.
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He had it coming, glad to see the opposite didn't happen.
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On January 10 2012 22:39 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:36 shizna wrote:On January 10 2012 22:30 PolSC2 wrote:On January 10 2012 22:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? Well, remember that new year Eve this year, a woman heard two men trying to enter her house; she called the police and they told her to wait that they enter the house and then shoot them. The police gave her legal fucking advice to kill the guys, instead of warning them she had a riffle or something. One dies and the other one is charged with first degree murder although he obviously didn't kill anybody. Justice in US is ridiculous. It's okay. Come right in. Take whatever you want. Oh, my infant baby? Sure, go ahead! Grow up. does it not occur to you that it would be pretty hard for the robbers to do anything if they'd taken bullets in the legs? or is it just "DUUUUUUUUH THERES A GHUY BREAKING THROUGH MY FRONT DOOR... KILLLLLLL KILLLLLLLL MUWHAAHAHAAHAAAAAA PEWW PEWWWW IM A COWBOY!" Assuming the woman had the lighting, skill, and presence of mind to aim for the legs... Even then, with a rifle hitting someone in the legs can be lethal as well, and if they have fire arms too... well... shooting in the legs just doesn't cut it now does it? Not every American is a Navy SEAL, bro... She had the presence of mind to call and talk to the cops, so I am not buying that she was in complete panic. And there is still a difference between shooting a kneecap and shooting to kill. Aim for the shoulder, arm, leg, whatever really just not the heart or head. If they die, then fine she did her best. But shooting them too just kill them is wrong.
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On January 10 2012 22:43 Miss_Cleo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:20 teddyoojo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:14 Miss_Cleo wrote:On January 10 2012 21:58 teddyoojo wrote:
how the fuck is that justified. srsly usa? He wasn't tried in a federal court. Try to keep the "zomg USA is stoopid" comments to yourself. srsly yet it happened in the usa. and yet people say its in any way justified. i just cant see that happening in germany/france/uk etc. "bowling for columbine" comes into my mind. seems pretty accurate. saying the kid shouldnt be punished is discussable. but saying its justified and ok that HE KILLED HIM is totally insane in my opinion. Yeah, except for the part where in Columbine 15 people were massacred by crazed gunmen. Besides that little detail, the kid using a knife to defend himself while being attacked by a group of bullies is basically a Columbine 2. I think the kid has been punished enough by being driven to the point where he has to stab a person. He also has to live with the fact that he has killed another human being, which is a traumatic experience. Also, the courts didn't say it was "justified". He wasn't legally charged with murder, because the judge decided that it was self-defense. He wasn't given a fucking medal from President Obama for killing him. Why would you imprison someone who has broken no law? I don't really know German/France/UK law so I can't really comment on the last part.
As a UK law student who has finished Criminal Law last year, I can assure you that the UK courts would have pretty much reached the same conclusion, assuming no other vital facts have been hidden from us.
I fully agree with your last paragraph. Well put.
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EPT
