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krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-12 14:26:35
October 12 2014 14:26 GMT
#4681
--- Nuked ---
AlterKot
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Poland7525 Posts
October 12 2014 14:34 GMT
#4682
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.
Americans don't like to use unblockables, it is considered not honest. You press a button at the wrong time and hit the other person, you are random, not a top player. You DP Sim's far fierce, it is random and not honest.
ExceliosBeyond
Profile Joined September 2012
208 Posts
October 12 2014 14:45 GMT
#4683
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
By the way, all this talk of Winter OGN being cancelled and OGN teams not being abled to be sponsored by the same team is all Riot's idea, the geniuses who has been the shining beacon of light as we have witnessed thus far.

Exactly who is this for?

1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.
2) The poor multi-billion dollar organizations like Samsung who might struggle supporting two teams? Are you kidding me?
3) To make it easier for those once a year arm-chair fans who finds it too hard to differentiate between Samsung Galaxy Blue and Samsung Galaxy White? Who cares? They're all faceless Koreans to them anyhow.
4) To cut down on the temptations of match-fixing and collusion? Seriously? This is where you start? By limiting the participation of respected, experienced sponsorships and letting unchecked "companies" like AHQ and Monster Gaming get their dirty hands on these young kids?
5) To ensure all regions are treated equally? They're not equal to start with. China never gets their patches on time. Europe and North America have money thrown at them directly by Riot Gaming. Exactly what kind of equality is Riot Gaming looking for here?

There's a lot of things I hate about the E-sports scene in Korea, but Riot Gaming is the LAST organization that I'd want to fix the ongoing issues that exists over here. Blizzard fucked things up years before thinking they knew better when they obviously didn't, and it's just a tragedy how Riot Gaming just waltzes everywhere thinking they know everything just because their marketting of the game happened to be successful.


By all reports, the ruling is from Kespa and not Riot.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35166 Posts
October 12 2014 14:51 GMT
#4684
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

Not to mention if these players are so good, they should be able to catch on in other regions/get sponsored by somebody else in Korea.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
October 12 2014 15:47 GMT
#4685
On October 12 2014 23:51 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

Not to mention if these players are so good, they should be able to catch on in other regions/get sponsored by somebody else in Korea.


"Somebody else in Korea" is key, because i don't see sponsors actively seeking for a free teams there, since Jin Air dive into esports.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
AlterKot
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Poland7525 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-12 16:08:13
October 12 2014 16:05 GMT
#4686
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2j15m9/if_peke_stay_in_fnatic_rekkles_will_leave_the/

According to now-deleted posts by Selfie, if Incarnation was to be unbanned then he would likely play for FNC, and if FNC wouldn't bench xPeke for him, then Rekkles would leave to play with Jensen. But I heard Selfie has a reputation of "trolling" with roster swaps info and might simply be fucking with reddit.
Americans don't like to use unblockables, it is considered not honest. You press a button at the wrong time and hit the other person, you are random, not a top player. You DP Sim's far fierce, it is random and not honest.
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
October 12 2014 16:09 GMT
#4687

LoveLin may retire
Glorious SEA doto
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35166 Posts
October 12 2014 16:10 GMT
#4688
On October 13 2014 00:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 23:51 Gahlo wrote:
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

Not to mention if these players are so good, they should be able to catch on in other regions/get sponsored by somebody else in Korea.


"Somebody else in Korea" is key, because i don't see sponsors actively seeking for a free teams there, since Jin Air dive into esports.

Well, the previous system was disadvantageous for small partners before, due to the kespa orgs having the means to field 2 teams a piece. KT, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, IM, and Samsung filled 12 of the 16 slots. Najin had another 4. Outside of the big League brands, only Bigfile and MKZ were able to qualify. Sponsor reduction cuts almost half those team slots out, making room for up to 9 orgs to get a place in the highest level competition with the most visibility.

Frankly, the recognition competition might have dissuaded orgs from joining in the first place.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-12 16:26:54
October 12 2014 16:23 GMT
#4689
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

No it isnt. But people like to speculate that without having any proof.

If we compare to Dota where players have to earn their pay all the time, we dont see teams practising there more. Also I dont think we should pressure them to practise more. It is already at an unhealthy amount imo.

Apart from that a direct correlation between more player practise and more fun as a viewer is highly doubtful.
Off-season = best season
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
October 12 2014 16:29 GMT
#4690
Personally don't think it has anything to do with practicing more. I think they practice too much in the first place. It's just about being smarter in how you practice and think of the game. Teams do a lot of elementary mistakes in the drafting phase that doesn't have anything to do with grinding hours and hours of practice and more to do with not thinking about the game smartly enough.

Dota does tend to be a bit more cutthroat with teams reforming after each TI so there aren't as many legacy players that have no business still being in top teams. That's the only real negative I see in the LCS for the teams but that was the case even before the LCS in LoL.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
October 12 2014 16:37 GMT
#4691
On October 13 2014 01:29 Numy wrote:
Personally don't think it has anything to do with practicing more. I think they practice too much in the first place. It's just about being smarter in how you practice and think of the game. Teams do a lot of elementary mistakes in the drafting phase that doesn't have anything to do with grinding hours and hours of practice and more to do with not thinking about the game smartly enough.

Dota does tend to be a bit more cutthroat with teams reforming after each TI so there aren't as many legacy players that have no business still being in top teams. That's the only real negative I see in the LCS for the teams but that was the case even before the LCS in LoL.

Player turnover in League is way faster than in Dota.
Off-season = best season
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
October 12 2014 16:43 GMT
#4692
Turnover isn't the same as legacy players though. Sure there's a lot of people going between teams but there's still quite a few players on top teams that have no business being there. I can't think of any top Dota teams that are like that. Maybe Fata being on C9 but I just dislike Fata lol and Chessie on A but he's new so we'll see how that goes.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-12 16:51:03
October 12 2014 16:49 GMT
#4693
It is just your personal view though who belongs and who doesnt. And I would also say Dota has more legacy players. But its a little hard to compare with Dota, as recognizing talent there is probably more difficult and works different. In any case the average career of a Dota player seems to be way longer than that of one in League.
Off-season = best season
AlterKot
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Poland7525 Posts
October 12 2014 16:56 GMT
#4694
On October 13 2014 01:23 Redox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

No it isnt. But people like to speculate that without having any proof.

If we compare to Dota where players have to earn their pay all the time, we dont see teams practising there more. Also I dont think we should pressure them to practise more. It is already at an unhealthy amount imo.

Apart from that a direct correlation between more player practise and more fun as a viewer is highly doubtful.

Speak for yourself. I enjoy CS/FG tournaments every month were players try to get the highest spot every time because their salary depends on it more than LCS were majority of the games mean very little in the grand scheme of things. And I don't care how much these teams practice, I'm saying that LCS system is actually good for players because more money less stress, but sucks for viewers such as me who prefer OGN/NLB tournament circuit system.
Americans don't like to use unblockables, it is considered not honest. You press a button at the wrong time and hit the other person, you are random, not a top player. You DP Sim's far fierce, it is random and not honest.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-12 17:07:10
October 12 2014 17:04 GMT
#4695
On October 13 2014 01:56 AlterKot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2014 01:23 Redox wrote:
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

No it isnt. But people like to speculate that without having any proof.

If we compare to Dota where players have to earn their pay all the time, we dont see teams practising there more. Also I dont think we should pressure them to practise more. It is already at an unhealthy amount imo.

Apart from that a direct correlation between more player practise and more fun as a viewer is highly doubtful.

Speak for yourself. I enjoy CS/FG tournaments every month were players try to get the highest spot every time because their salary depends on it more than LCS were majority of the games mean very little in the grand scheme of things. And I don't care how much these teams practice, I'm saying that LCS system is actually good for players because more money less stress, but sucks for viewers such as me who prefer OGN/NLB tournament circuit system.

That is a different issue. I prefer the free tournament system of Dota myself (or the League tournaments like they were before LCS) because it is more exciting and offers more opportunities to players if they lose once. I just dont think it makes players try harder or that LCS leads to complacency.

In tournaments like starladder etc teams do not always try their hardest. They sometimes hold back strats, play with substitutes etc.
Off-season = best season
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
October 12 2014 17:17 GMT
#4696
On October 13 2014 01:10 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2014 00:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On October 12 2014 23:51 Gahlo wrote:
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

Not to mention if these players are so good, they should be able to catch on in other regions/get sponsored by somebody else in Korea.


"Somebody else in Korea" is key, because i don't see sponsors actively seeking for a free teams there, since Jin Air dive into esports.

Well, the previous system was disadvantageous for small partners before, due to the kespa orgs having the means to field 2 teams a piece. KT, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, IM, and Samsung filled 12 of the 16 slots. Najin had another 4. Outside of the big League brands, only Bigfile and MKZ were able to qualify. Sponsor reduction cuts almost half those team slots out, making room for up to 9 orgs to get a place in the highest level competition with the most visibility.

Frankly, the recognition competition might have dissuaded orgs from joining in the first place.


Considering how Bigfile just dropped their team week ago, i'm not that sure that sponsors really want it.
Yes, there are Xenics, yes, there are almost always 1-2 amateur teams, yes, there is Prime and possible CTU again, but meh.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-12 19:08:00
October 12 2014 19:05 GMT
#4697
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
By the way, all this talk of Winter OGN being cancelled and OGN teams not being abled to be sponsored by the same team is all Riot's idea, the geniuses who has been the shining beacon of light as we have witnessed thus far.

Exactly who is this for?

1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.
2) The poor multi-billion dollar organizations like Samsung who might struggle supporting two teams? Are you kidding me?
3) To make it easier for those once a year arm-chair fans who finds it too hard to differentiate between Samsung Galaxy Blue and Samsung Galaxy White? Who cares? They're all faceless Koreans to them anyhow.
4) To cut down on the temptations of match-fixing and collusion? Seriously? This is where you start? By limiting the participation of respected, experienced sponsorships and letting unchecked "companies" like AHQ and Monster Gaming get their dirty hands on these young kids?
5) To ensure all regions are treated equally? They're not equal to start with. China never gets their patches on time. Europe and North America have money thrown at them directly by Riot Gaming. Exactly what kind of equality is Riot Gaming looking for here?

There's a lot of things I hate about the E-sports scene in Korea, but Riot Gaming is the LAST organization that I'd want to fix the ongoing issues that exists over here. Blizzard fucked things up years before thinking they knew better when they obviously didn't, and it's just a tragedy how Riot Gaming just waltzes everywhere thinking they know everything just because their marketting of the game happened to be successful.

My guess was that it was every other organization bitching to Kespa to do it just because nobody else has 2 good teams, lol.

On October 13 2014 02:04 Redox wrote:
I just dont think it makes players try harder or that LCS leads to complacency.

I agree, any apparent complacency is not the product of LCS.

If the complacency came from anywhere, it's from the streamer culture that grew up with League that makes being popular more lucrative than being good at the game, both for players and for teams. That existed long before LCS.
Moderator
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 12 2014 19:14 GMT
#4698
On October 13 2014 02:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2014 01:10 Gahlo wrote:
On October 13 2014 00:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On October 12 2014 23:51 Gahlo wrote:
On October 12 2014 23:34 AlterKot wrote:
On October 12 2014 22:57 Letmelose wrote:
1) The players? Anyone with half a brain can figure out that's not the case.

Actually...

On October 12 2014 22:21 krndandaman wrote:
it makes me sad that players on teams like samsung blue have less job security than fringe teams in NA LCS.

Isn't that the big problem with LCS? That region becomes complacent, because teams are getting their salaries just by playing in LCS and not by placing high in a tournament. The famous "job security", the fact that teams don't actually need to provide results just to survive? In that sense, players do gain from LCS system. Viewers don't.

Not to mention if these players are so good, they should be able to catch on in other regions/get sponsored by somebody else in Korea.


"Somebody else in Korea" is key, because i don't see sponsors actively seeking for a free teams there, since Jin Air dive into esports.

Well, the previous system was disadvantageous for small partners before, due to the kespa orgs having the means to field 2 teams a piece. KT, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, IM, and Samsung filled 12 of the 16 slots. Najin had another 4. Outside of the big League brands, only Bigfile and MKZ were able to qualify. Sponsor reduction cuts almost half those team slots out, making room for up to 9 orgs to get a place in the highest level competition with the most visibility.

Frankly, the recognition competition might have dissuaded orgs from joining in the first place.


Considering how Bigfile just dropped their team week ago, i'm not that sure that sponsors really want it.
Yes, there are Xenics, yes, there are almost always 1-2 amateur teams, yes, there is Prime and possible CTU again, but meh.


This only makes sense if OGN knows of a bunch of sponsors who want in. I mean, clearly the Samsung team that gets dropped will be picked up somewhere, and between the CJ/SK/Jin Air/KT cast offs there will probably be another for sure team, but I don't know enough about Korea to know who would want to sponsor a LOL team.
Freeeeeeedom
AlterKot
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Poland7525 Posts
October 12 2014 19:27 GMT
#4699
Teams in EU time and time again prove that they don't play well unless they care about the match. This applies to Fnatic, Gambit, probably Lemondogs, perhaps Alliance etc. More importantly, the time EU teams could compete with the best was in S2, when there was no LCS and teams prepared for tournaments every now and then, rather than for long, tiring season. And the best region is the only one that has a tournament circuit rather than league. Is it conclusive that regions are complacent because of LCS? No. But I don't think it's out of question either.
Americans don't like to use unblockables, it is considered not honest. You press a button at the wrong time and hit the other person, you are random, not a top player. You DP Sim's far fierce, it is random and not honest.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
October 12 2014 19:55 GMT
#4700
My belief is that without LCS western teams would be nowhere near the level they are now. This rigid system they are in now makes it actually more similar to the Korean environment. Wit the liberal system before they were far away from it.
The Koreans dont play tournaments here and there or fly around the world to LANs like it was back then. They are steadily practising in a stable environment. With LCS teams it is simlar now, albeit not quite up to that level. The tournament format is not as important for this as the general practise conditions.

Yeah EU teams did somewhat better in S2 compared to Koreans, but everyone's level was a joke compared to now. It is interesting btw that we enjoyed the games despite the lower level.
Off-season = best season
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