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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 20:33 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 jyisvip wrote:On December 14 2011 20:27 Jakkerr wrote:
Just a question for all the guys agreeing with GOM's decision.
Think about it for a second and answer it honestly:
You are playing with 200% focus but still went 0-3, you are incredibly frustrated by it and really just want to go home and lay in bed or something.
Then sum1 comes up to you and tells you have to play your 4th game vs another guy that's also 0-3 because it was scheduled.
Would you be able to play it serious and not just do something retarded and get it over with? In any sport, do you see players stop giving a shit and sits down on the bench because they are losing, not able to come back and only 5 minutes left on the clock? No, you dont see that. If everyone here that wants e-sports to grow then everyone needs to act more professional and not act like however your mood is at the moment. Yes you do see that ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Stop making shit up. they literally always finish the game
Actually, they "literally always" pull their starters and basically kneel out. So you're wrong. Stop making shit up.
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On December 14 2011 20:32 Vandalman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:29 Chromodoris wrote:
I would understand if they fined him for the money he got from blizzard cup, but having his Code S spot revoked is just plain bullshit. He earned that spot at MLG and then they revoke it because he didn't play a worthless game? Worthless to who? Nani? People want to watch good SC2 games, people pay to watch good SC2 games. Sponsors pay an organization in hopes of good SC2 games.
But as Naniwa said, it wouldn't have been a good game, at least not from him. It wouldn't be the game you all wanted. I would love to see a game between Naniwa and Nestea where they both play at a 100% but this one wouldn't be that. Naniwa said so himself.
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On December 14 2011 20:33 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:33 hzflank wrote:
I am finding it really hard to understand how anyone can defend Naniwa in this thread.
And to the Swedish people who are being very nationalistic: Why dont you save that support for the Swedish players who actually deserve it? What? What the fuck are you on about, you think that just because we support one of the best protosses in the world we negate ThorZain, MorroW and the rest? LOL
Don't forget SaSe and Seiploo :D
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What? So does GOM really mean that the only purpose of MLG Exchange program is to bring back players like BoxeR and MC back to Code S when they get eliminated? At least that's what I understand out of this. For those people who don't understand the history: Naniwa fucking earned his spot. Both in Code S and Blizzard Cup. And he played his ass off in MLG and Blizzard Cup too. If only Mr.Chae had watched Naniwa's first 3 games in Blizzard Cup to determine what kind of a player Naniwa actually is instead of making a new rule out of nowhere and using it as an excuse to kick naniwa out of code s.
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On December 14 2011 20:34 Derez wrote:
The way artosis put it on stream it sounded like Nani will still have a code S seed for the 2nd GSL in 2012.
Anyone confirm?
Its only for the January Code s..so he can play after that
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On December 14 2011 20:34 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:32 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 Logros wrote:On December 14 2011 20:25 mTw|NarutO wrote:On December 14 2011 20:22 ggrrg wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
This match wasnt meaningless, if not for Naniwa it has meaning for audience, probably for NesTea...
This is not a playground for 3yo kinds, this is professional tournament, for professional players.
His duty as a player was to give his best in that game! With all his heart!? Do you really think that any progamer can do this after being eliminated in the most frustrating manner in 3 extremely close games? For Nestea and Naniwa it stopped being a tournament the moment they got 0-3. From them on it became an annoying waste of time. Also, it's quite disrespectful to start a post with "Kids"... Really? Does FC Munich just quit the field when they are down 0-3 in the 80 minute? Does Hamilton decide to just not drive the last 3 races if he can't be world champion? Your comparison makes me sick. They are professionals and they should act like they are. No because they could still come back or get a better score for future games. And no because he can place higher in the final rankings and earn more money. The thing is these games did not matter AT ALL. If Nestea won wouldn't change anything for anyone than if Naniwa won. The tournament was already over the match was a joke. it would mean nestea beat naniwa on tv that actually matters to some of us fans. I guess we're crazy! Both of the would've played even less than half-assed, the match would mean nothing.
you don't possibly know that for a fact and honestly that's incredibly insulting to nestea who is blameless in this entire affair. stop posting.
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On December 14 2011 20:30 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:23 Brett wrote:On December 14 2011 20:20 Nate.F wrote:On December 14 2011 20:19 archonOOid wrote:
I feel like the rule naniwa broke against is very vague and so it's up to GSL to determine whether he broke it or not. It feels like GOMtv/GSL has some kind of grudge against naniwa because you can win a probe rush if you opponent goes for a 6 pool. Naniwa clearly tried to out smart neastea but he stuck with a standard build. rules have to be vague or people will find loopholes to get around it -_- As a lawyer, please take my word on the fact that what you just wrote is nonsense. Laws are not meant to be vague at all. They are supposed to be very clear so that people know the lawful boundaries and can act within the scope of the law. Ambiguity actually makes for invalid law... explain the bills of right
LOL...
Is that supposed to be a counter argument to what I just said?
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On December 14 2011 20:34 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:32 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 Logros wrote:On December 14 2011 20:25 mTw|NarutO wrote:On December 14 2011 20:22 ggrrg wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
This match wasnt meaningless, if not for Naniwa it has meaning for audience, probably for NesTea...
This is not a playground for 3yo kinds, this is professional tournament, for professional players.
His duty as a player was to give his best in that game! With all his heart!? Do you really think that any progamer can do this after being eliminated in the most frustrating manner in 3 extremely close games? For Nestea and Naniwa it stopped being a tournament the moment they got 0-3. From them on it became an annoying waste of time. Also, it's quite disrespectful to start a post with "Kids"... Really? Does FC Munich just quit the field when they are down 0-3 in the 80 minute? Does Hamilton decide to just not drive the last 3 races if he can't be world champion? Your comparison makes me sick. They are professionals and they should act like they are. No because they could still come back or get a better score for future games. And no because he can place higher in the final rankings and earn more money. The thing is these games did not matter AT ALL. If Nestea won wouldn't change anything for anyone than if Naniwa won. The tournament was already over the match was a joke. it would mean nestea beat naniwa on tv that actually matters to some of us fans. I guess we're crazy! Both of the would've played even less than half-assed, the match would mean nothing.
Considering Nestea's cultural upbringing, he would have tried.
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I don't know how clear they were on such actions before letting players in the booth. Nevertheless it looks a little overdone. Like a little dictator slapping weaker ones as he sees fit. Disappointing.
Even more disappointing as they want players with that bad boy image.
A warning that such an action will make him loose his seat next time, would have just done the trick as well.
After all they are right so far as this was not a great game to watch as a fan.
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On December 14 2011 20:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:32 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:30 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote:
This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment. I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol.. Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread. No. You cannot win with a probe rush against a 6 pool. Unless you are in some shitty ladder league. Why are you lying like an idiot?
It's been proven so many times, I'm not lying and frankly if you don't believe it for yourself, you may be the idiot.
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On December 14 2011 20:33 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 jyisvip wrote:On December 14 2011 20:27 Jakkerr wrote:
Just a question for all the guys agreeing with GOM's decision.
Think about it for a second and answer it honestly:
You are playing with 200% focus but still went 0-3, you are incredibly frustrated by it and really just want to go home and lay in bed or something.
Then sum1 comes up to you and tells you have to play your 4th game vs another guy that's also 0-3 because it was scheduled.
Would you be able to play it serious and not just do something retarded and get it over with? In any sport, do you see players stop giving a shit and sits down on the bench because they are losing, not able to come back and only 5 minutes left on the clock? No, you dont see that. If everyone here that wants e-sports to grow then everyone needs to act more professional and not act like however your mood is at the moment. Yes you do see that ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Stop making shit up. they literally always finish the game
Good players do it all the time leaving the bench players to go sit through the end of the game. Literally ever lakers starter did it multiple times in the dallas series last year.
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On December 14 2011 20:30 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:27 Executor1 wrote:
I agree with huk
LorangerChris
if it was a korean player, they would be out of gsl for months, kicked out of team house, and etc. is he perma baned or just this season?
LorangerChris
As much as everyone likes to overuse "killing esports", noone actually uses in the example when it actually is. Things like this kil esports
from huks twitter. Yeah I agree with huk lets throw games because we were demoralized and then own up to it months later but then attack other people for it.
Yeah man, i agree with GOM, lets revoke Code-S status to players who use silly strategies in games and fall back on our incredibly vague rulebook that can be interpreted infinitely; especially if you aren't in tune with Korean culture despite the moniker "Global Starcraft League"
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On December 14 2011 20:32 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:30 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote:
This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment. I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol.. Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread.
Sorry I forgot that 7 probes beats 6 zerglings+5 drones I'm sorry
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On December 14 2011 20:31 Destructicon wrote:
This was the right move from GOM TV and I support them for doing this.
Like it or not gaming is now becoming a profession, you have to behave and act in a certain way, to be respectful and not offend anyone, the same its done in other sports. GOM did the right thing to show that, behavior like this will not be tolerated.
I'm quite sure the majority of people are raging because they suspect Korean bias from GOM and also view Naniwa as sort of our "foreign hero".
Consider that, when one of their own, Slayers_Coca started a matchfixing scandal he was quickly forced to give up his Code S and if he wouldn't have done it GOM would have done it at least.
Secondly, why should we forgive Naniwa? Just because he is a foreigner? The rules are for all, Naniwa messed up and deserved this. In actual fact the majority of the people here have a distorted outlook on reality, they think that, just because you are a great player/personality you can afford to be a jerk in life and just piss over everyone. That is NOT how the world works, nor how it is meant to work. The people offended by GOMs decision should be offended by Naniwa's gesture and should re-view their outlook on life.
I don't care where Nani is from looking at it:
1. Naniwa probe rushed. People don't like this because people don't like cheese, especially one they don't think can win. However, Gom has not specifically banned this strategy nor has a rule explicitly disallowing its use in play.
2. GOM bans Naniwa under vague terms, then basically insults him, saying he's not really a progamer.
The second one especially gets me because GOM is meant to be a professional organization, and no matter what happens should remain professional. Their statement was not that.
Also, the matchfixing scandal is a completely different story- Coca did something explicitly against the rules. Naniwa did not.
Not even going to discuss your last paragraph because it hinges on the fact that most people think what Naniwa did is wrong, and I do not.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
On December 14 2011 20:33 crystyxn wrote:
well he can just go to MLG
........ MLG will send him right back to Code A/S
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On December 14 2011 20:35 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:34 Logros wrote:On December 14 2011 20:32 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:31 Logros wrote:On December 14 2011 20:25 mTw|NarutO wrote:On December 14 2011 20:22 ggrrg wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
This match wasnt meaningless, if not for Naniwa it has meaning for audience, probably for NesTea...
This is not a playground for 3yo kinds, this is professional tournament, for professional players.
His duty as a player was to give his best in that game! With all his heart!? Do you really think that any progamer can do this after being eliminated in the most frustrating manner in 3 extremely close games? For Nestea and Naniwa it stopped being a tournament the moment they got 0-3. From them on it became an annoying waste of time. Also, it's quite disrespectful to start a post with "Kids"... Really? Does FC Munich just quit the field when they are down 0-3 in the 80 minute? Does Hamilton decide to just not drive the last 3 races if he can't be world champion? Your comparison makes me sick. They are professionals and they should act like they are. No because they could still come back or get a better score for future games. And no because he can place higher in the final rankings and earn more money. The thing is these games did not matter AT ALL. If Nestea won wouldn't change anything for anyone than if Naniwa won. The tournament was already over the match was a joke. it would mean nestea beat naniwa on tv that actually matters to some of us fans. I guess we're crazy! Both of the would've played even less than half-assed, the match would mean nothing. Considering Nestea's cultural upbringing, he would have tried.
This whole Korean culture > everything thing needs to stop right now.
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On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote:
This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games. If you force them to play a game, which is essentially being played for fun with absolutely no benefit to the players, you might as well not have them play at all. They obviously weren't going to be playing their best anyway, so that argument is bullshit.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
Good Sir, mind posting a replay pack of you working rushing? Its apparently a good way to rack up wins on ladder :D
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On December 14 2011 20:30 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:28 Ysellian wrote:On December 14 2011 20:20 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 20:19 iamke55 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:17 Klogbert wrote:On December 14 2011 20:16 Packawana wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Klogbert wrote:On December 14 2011 20:12 Eviscerador wrote:On December 14 2011 20:04 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Forfeiting the match would be terrible sportsmanship. Probe rushing is even below that. It's a straight FU to the fans, opponent, and GOM. I'm glad GOM took the issue of professionalism seriously. Someone has to, and it's definitely not Naniwa. Droping mules or building CC on your defeated enemy base is not? For me that is the middle finger equivalent in videogames. Double standards everywhere... Holy crap didn't even think about this...wow does this makes GOM look like hypocrites. I'm officially done with GSL...still. But were those games actually played out? This is the main thing, this wasn't a form of BM that was meant to insult the opponent in the way dropping mules is. This is BM in the way that insults the tournament and insults the viewers. If you play for any team or any sport, you are expected to give your all no matter what your standing is, no matter how far down or far up you are. When it becomes blatantly obvious that you're not playing to win (and reaffirm that post-match), then you are not living to the professionalism that is supposed to be integral in any competition. You must not really watch sports then...the Indianapolis Colts certainly aren't giving their all. The Chicago Cubs at the end of every year don't even play their stars. Not sending your best players in a team sport is the equivalent in SC2 of trying out a new build that isn't as refined as your old one. No it isn't. That analogy is quite good actually. No it isn't.
If you are not playing your best players, you are admitting defeat. You want it to be different because you want to hate on Nani for offending you bullshit sensibilities. get over yourself.
Except that is where you are wrong. Not playing your best players puts you at a disadvantage similar to a unrefined strategy, but your players on the field are still playing for the win. If players actually roll over and let the opponent just kick their ass the immediate reaction would be that the match was fixed. Look up Dinamo Zagreb for such an example.
and let it be known that Naniwa did NOT micro his probes.
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I don't how this became such a drama ?
IMO Gom should have officially warn and give a blame Naniwa for his behaviour, which is not compatible with their standard, remind their rule about 'abusive behavior', and explain next time someone does the same, it may be a ban. And also explain that they will work on improving their format to increase the audience experience. This would have been a constructive follow-up in a tough situation. But an out-of-the-blue code S revocation is a bit extreme and just add drama over drama.
Naniwa behaviour was bad (but understandable considering the format), but as far as I'm concerned, Gom reaction seems quite epidemic and arbitrary, and somehow childish too. I'm pretty disappointed by all of this...
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EPT
