While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum.
On December 14 2011 20:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 14 2011 20:31 jyisvip wrote:
On December 14 2011 20:27 Jakkerr wrote: Just a question for all the guys agreeing with GOM's decision. Think about it for a second and answer it honestly:
You are playing with 200% focus but still went 0-3, you are incredibly frustrated by it and really just want to go home and lay in bed or something. Then sum1 comes up to you and tells you have to play your 4th game vs another guy that's also 0-3 because it was scheduled. Would you be able to play it serious and not just do something retarded and get it over with?
In any sport, do you see players stop giving a shit and sits down on the bench because they are losing, not able to come back and only 5 minutes left on the clock? No, you dont see that. If everyone here that wants e-sports to grow then everyone needs to act more professional and not act like however your mood is at the moment.
Yes you do see that ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
Stop making shit up.
they literally always finish the game
Actually, they "literally always" pull their starters and basically kneel out. So you're wrong. Stop making shit up.
pulling their starters = playing the game
the equivalent to what everyone is saying, at least look like you're trying.
naniwa didn't pull his starters, he rolled the ball to the other team.
Teams kneel out when they are winning and they can kill the clock.
On December 14 2011 20:31 Destructicon wrote: This was the right move from GOM TV and I support them for doing this. Like it or not gaming is now becoming a profession, you have to behave and act in a certain way, to be respectful and not offend anyone, the same its done in other sports. GOM did the right thing to show that, behavior like this will not be tolerated.
I'm quite sure the majority of people are raging because they suspect Korean bias from GOM and also view Naniwa as sort of our "foreign hero".
Consider that, when one of their own, Slayers_Coca started a matchfixing scandal he was quickly forced to give up his Code S and if he wouldn't have done it GOM would have done it at least.
Secondly, why should we forgive Naniwa? Just because he is a foreigner? The rules are for all, Naniwa messed up and deserved this. In actual fact the majority of the people here have a distorted outlook on reality, they think that, just because you are a great player/personality you can afford to be a jerk in life and just piss over everyone. That is NOT how the world works, nor how it is meant to work. The people offended by GOMs decision should be offended by Naniwa's gesture and should re-view their outlook on life.
But you're missing the point- Korean players aren't respectful to each other! They taunt and BM their opponents in all sorts of ways. They build manner nexuses and hatcheries, they drop manner mules and make their units dance. After matches they do thumbs down and all sorts of other disrespectful ceremonies and Gom never gives two shits about any of this behavior. If they want players to be professional that's fine, but they need to be consistent about it.
On December 14 2011 20:31 Destructicon wrote: This was the right move from GOM TV and I support them for doing this. Like it or not gaming is now becoming a profession, you have to behave and act in a certain way, to be respectful and not offend anyone, the same its done in other sports. GOM did the right thing to show that, behavior like this will not be tolerated.
I'm quite sure the majority of people are raging because they suspect Korean bias from GOM and also view Naniwa as sort of our "foreign hero".
Consider that, when one of their own, Slayers_Coca started a matchfixing scandal he was quickly forced to give up his Code S and if he wouldn't have done it GOM would have done it at least.
Secondly, why should we forgive Naniwa? Just because he is a foreigner? The rules are for all, Naniwa messed up and deserved this. In actual fact the majority of the people here have a distorted outlook on reality, they think that, just because you are a great player/personality you can afford to be a jerk in life and just piss over everyone. That is NOT how the world works, nor how it is meant to work. The people offended by GOMs decision should be offended by Naniwa's gesture and should re-view their outlook on life.
I don't care where Nani is from looking at it:
1. Naniwa probe rushed. People don't like this because people don't like cheese, especially one they don't think can win. However, Gom has not specifically banned this strategy nor has a rule explicitly disallowing its use in play.
2. GOM bans Naniwa under vague terms, then basically insults him, saying he's not really a progamer.
The second one especially gets me because GOM is meant to be a professional organization, and no matter what happens should remain professional. Their statement was not that.
Also, the matchfixing scandal is a completely different story- Coca did something explicitly against the rules. Naniwa did not.
Not even going to discuss your last paragraph because it hinges on the fact that most people think what Naniwa did is wrong, and I do not.
rules are meant to be vague so that people dont figure out loopholes
There's a balance between not having loopholes and being so vague that your punishments are arbitrary. GOM's rules (or this one in particular) fall into the latter category.
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol..
Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread.
Sorry I forgot that 7 probes beats 6 zerglings+5 drones I'm sorry
You get there before the lings pop out.. rofl.
This is so ugly... What stops you from running your drones away indefinitely?
On December 14 2011 20:11 Dimon87 wrote: I guess the "global" part of the GOM.tv did not apply here. Really dissapointing.
no naniwa = no longer global
Let's ignore every other foreigners in the gsl because using hyperboles is cool
What i meant was that this decision is fully based on korean culture and it seems they do not care about the west. Way to harsh punishment.
I wonder why a Korean tournament ran by Koreans in Korea sponsored by Korean companies are making decisions based on Korean culture? It just doesn't make sense.
It is fully within their right and it DOES makes sense but they do also call themselves a global tournament.
MLB calls their finals World Series. www.worldseries.com/ Contrary to popular beliefs, Dreamhack tournament organizers will not hack into your dreams.
Dumb comparison tbh but i guess me saying the "global" part of gom.tv did not apply here fits then aye?
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
- idra hasn't pulled that shit in korea, where nobody would stand for it. he is seeded though, so we'll see how long he lasts.
He has pulled way worse shit outside of Korea though (forfeiting the second game in a Bo3 after losing the first against Nerchio in the semis of a TL Open - A game that was broadcast and actually mattered for the rest of the tourney) and he doesn't get nearly as much flak as Naniwa is getting over this.
Damn right, it's all a matter of fanclub size. It's silly how much shit Naniwa gets
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol..
Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread.
Sorry I forgot that 7 probes beats 6 zerglings+5 drones I'm sorry
You get there before the lings pop out.. rofl.
I also missed the fact that 7 probes arrive to a Zerg base in under 1 minute on a 4 PLAYER map and the Zerg player(NesTea) would be incompetent enough to let his drones freely die to probes before zerglings pop out
On December 14 2011 20:27 Executor1 wrote: I agree with huk
LorangerChris
if it was a korean player, they would be out of gsl for months, kicked out of team house, and etc. is he perma baned or just this season?
LorangerChris
As much as everyone likes to overuse "killing esports", noone actually uses in the example when it actually is. Things like this kil esports
from huks twitter.
Yeah I agree with huk lets throw games because we were demoralized and then own up to it months later but then attack other people for it.
Yeah man, i agree with GOM, lets revoke Code-S status to players who use silly strategies in games and fall back on our incredibly vague rulebook that can be interpreted infinitely; especially if you aren't in tune with Korean culture despite the moniker "Global Starcraft League"
You didn't get I was making fun of huk since he threw a game in a winnable series and I am against the gsl right?
On December 14 2011 20:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 14 2011 20:31 jyisvip wrote:
On December 14 2011 20:27 Jakkerr wrote: Just a question for all the guys agreeing with GOM's decision. Think about it for a second and answer it honestly:
You are playing with 200% focus but still went 0-3, you are incredibly frustrated by it and really just want to go home and lay in bed or something. Then sum1 comes up to you and tells you have to play your 4th game vs another guy that's also 0-3 because it was scheduled. Would you be able to play it serious and not just do something retarded and get it over with?
In any sport, do you see players stop giving a shit and sits down on the bench because they are losing, not able to come back and only 5 minutes left on the clock? No, you dont see that. If everyone here that wants e-sports to grow then everyone needs to act more professional and not act like however your mood is at the moment.
Yes you do see that ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
Stop making shit up.
they literally always finish the game
Good players do it all the time leaving the bench players to go sit through the end of the game. Literally ever lakers starter did it multiple times in the dallas series last year.
No apparently they don't because these tools want justification for being tools.
those players go in and finish the game though
they don't just lay on the ground and cry and then tell everyone they threw the game
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol..
Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread.
Sorry I forgot that 7 probes beats 6 zerglings+5 drones I'm sorry
You get there before the lings pop out.. rofl.
I also missed the fact that 7 probes arrive to a Zerg base in under 1 minute on a 4 PLAYER map and the Zerg player(NesTea) would be incompetent enough to let his drones freely die to probes before zerglings die
- Are the koreans overreacting? Yes, they are. They need to chill and realize that people throw games/not take certain games seriously all the time, be it starcraft games or normal sports. - Was Naniwa in the wrong? Yes. No matter how stupid Korean ideals may be, or how bad the tournament format is, it's still disrespectful.
In the end there is no winner. But there are two losers.
I think GOM did wrong. They have a bad system and if Naniwa want to "throw away" a game that should be his loss in that tournament. I don't understand their decision at all :S
On December 14 2011 20:37 scruffeh wrote: Jeez, the amount of mindless hyperbole from both sides within this thread is frustrating. I feel bad for Naniwa, and he obviously has some issues and made a pretty daft decision during the game. The punishment was harsh, but it fits in with the Korean ethos, and isn't a big surprise, especially considering the reaction to his actions. I'm really not sure why we can't have a discussion without resorting to bashing GOM, over the top outrage, and bashing the Swedish community. Once things become "disgusting" or "outrageous" then you have nowhere to go when you need to describe something really important or significant. It's just the forum equivalent of shitty tabloid journalism where everything has to be one extreme or the other.
good sir, welcome to teamliquid where everything is absolutes all day errday. enjoy your stay.
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
This is painful to read. Are you seriously thinking that his probe rush (that he didn't not even try to micro, because he was purposefully throwing away the game, if you did not figure it out yet) may win against 6-pool? Seriously?
Why not? It's ridiculous to say "holy shit, get naniwa the fuck out of this league!" Of course he was throwing the game away, but he could have thrown it away in any number of ways without it being a big deal at all. To say that naniwa came out and disrespected nestea, gomtv, and everyone watching is absurd. It's not like he came out and said "fuck you" to nestea's face or something.
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol..
Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread.
Sorry I forgot that 7 probes beats 6 zerglings+5 drones I'm sorry
On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote: This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol..
Worker rush works against a 6 pool, it has a win rate. Therefore it is also legit. This argument has been crushed so many times in this thread.
Sorry I forgot that 7 probes beats 6 zerglings+5 drones I'm sorry
You get there before the lings pop out.. rofl.
doesn't work as a counter, I've tested it. You just don't build the pool OR cancel it and make 3 drones at once, run your drones around until they pop and then you win. So it doesn't counter even 6pool.
I definitely think what Naniwa did crossed the line (nobody would have blamed him for playing 'b-team' equivalent i.e. a 1base all in or whatever).
I don't really agree with the punishment but I suppose that GOM wants to set a precedent with it. Sucks for Naniwa but in the end I think it'll work out. I just hope all this drama can be forgotten by the 2nd season of 2012 at least, and no bad blood remains.
EPT
