While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum.
On December 15 2011 02:41 The KY wrote: Well you weren't going to get that in the Nani v Nestea game, since both players were out and had nothing to gain from playing to their best and fullest potential. As Liquid'Tyler said, they would not and should not use their best strats against eachother in a meaningless game.
Tyler also agree that Naniwa's behavior was inappropriate and thus deserve punishment.
People are saying "Money Hunter" like its a bad thing LOL
"You play to win the game" Only win. not be fluffy with your fands and smile and shake hands and hand everybody candy hearts. You Win. I like that he showed some emotion this whole Automaton thing at the GSL is getting old
On December 15 2011 02:40 SpiffD wrote: Okay GOM wants to make a statement. That's fine, but they are shitting on Naniwa fans. Their reason/rule is very vague and it is more likely they just wanted the more popular player Idra to compete. All this while Nani wasted resources coming to Korea in order to compete in code S.
Naniwa with his action shitted on everything he could: His opponent which wanted revenge due to what happened at MLG. His fans due to not playing. The tournament/gom.tv due to not playing. His team due to not playing.
Seriously... Even if there would not be any rule that rush would justify a ban.
+ Naniwa has a history of acting really... "stupid"... when it comes to tournaments in general so i'm prettty sure he would just do this again when not punished for it.
On December 15 2011 01:42 MorroW wrote: but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense
It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world.
Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat.
Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job.
He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it.
Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO.
sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion?
if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u
are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match?
Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective.
well clearly naniwa did not know what he agreed to because no remotely smart person would probe rush knowing he would lose code S to it
ive never played a tournament where someone said i HAD to play. giving walkovers is standard (if the game doesnt matter) and you get away with it in all tournaments ive played this far. so wouldnt be surprised if naniwa was under the same impressions
it's common sense that if ur in the booth on a televised match that ur expected to well... play it out? yes walkovers are given in tournaments but you dont get into the booth on tv then expect one. yes there are no tournaments where u HAVE to play, obviously u can just forfeit but ull be punished. i see ur point but ur examples arent that good. nanima should be punished and u know it, ur just letting nationalism blind ur judgement
The problem with that is up and down matches are casted and in a both yet the games that do not matter end up getting skipped, why do they have to be played out now?
Because these are the rules in this tournament?
FFS is it so hard? You sighn up for a tournament which has rules XXX. You play as you should. You get your starting money.
You don't do this and act contrary to the wishes of the tournament organisation? You get punished.
It's not fucking rocket science.
I feel your frustration, it's like people don't know how to interpret facts anymore.
On December 15 2011 02:33 labbe wrote: This isn't even about Naniwa anymore, this whole situation just shows how GOMTV has no respect for the foreign community
Then why do you think GOM hands out Code A seeds to foreigners who would otherwise be unable to compete for them the usual way?
On December 15 2011 02:36 pusmoh wrote: Wow their refund policy is really bad, you can only get a refund within 3 days and only if that was the first ticket you ever bought. Normal would be two weeks I believe. Well I certainly won't buy anything else this year like GSTLs and such, wich I originally wanted to buy.
I bought a ticket several months ago, but can't watch any vods for some reason. Requested a refund immediately, but never got it back. Asked about the technical problems, nobody even gave me a response.
On December 15 2011 02:19 wei2coolman wrote: It's not like he broken any rules >.>
GSL, what a joke. I'll definitely NOT buy a pass this season.
Are you people that blind? Read the OP.
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours
At least read the other side of the story before you pass judgement.
I think the reason that no one is really taking that rule serious is that its so incredibly arbitrary. What offends me may not offend you and vice versa. I may be offended by you 4 gate-ting me who knows? You can't just disqualify a player for "offending someone" otherwise I could just go into a GSL match and go 100-0 because my opponents are "offending me" with their play and therefore should be disqualified. Also I highly doubt that Nestea was actually offended that he got a free win in a match that didn't matter, GOM is just taking this way out of proportion.
Just watch the game. Nestea is angry after it. He's angry on Twitter. He wanted to play that game. How could he be happy about that kind of "win"?
Didnt Nestea himself say he did not play serious vs Huk on stage in those show-matches? Is there some subtle difference in the entertainment provided to people paying for the games that you are supposed to automaticly get since those where showmatches?
Naniwa was supposed to play a showmatch in this situation but he didnt and instead threw the game.
It was his obligation to play this game not to play 100% serious.
On December 15 2011 02:39 Rostam wrote: People can defend Naniwa all they like but from where I sit what he did makes him look exactly like a "money hunter". He was invited to this tournament because he's a skilled player and they knew the fans would like to see him play. He refused to play as soon as he lost a chance at winning money. He showed that the fans and the game itself aren't important to him, only the money.
However, I'm not sure it's justified to revoke his Code S seed for it if he earned it at MLG. They definitely should not bring him to any future invitational events, though.
I don't know how people could spin doctor this so backwards. He cares about one thing and one thing only: Winning. The money is only the icing on the cake. He's said this so many times now that it's getting redundant.
Furthermore, if he was a money hunter he would try to win as much as possible (taking 4th over 5th), but that wasn't the case now was it?
Sorry, but players do this all the fucking time. Why do you think a lot of us keep preaching to make sure that players are in positions to win more money all across the board? So shit like this doesn't happen as often.
More incentive is needed. Not just money. Points and ranks need more substance.
On December 15 2011 02:07 Tachion wrote: [quote] It's one game. Just play it for the fans, it's really not that big a deal. Small price to pay for being able to participate in the biggest tournament in the world.
Like Morrow put it earlier, Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor. Naniwa is the probably the most genuine progamer out there, I hate that Gom is trying to destroying the integrity of the game. This whole situation made possible and brought to you by Gom's horrible format! Basically, Gom shouldn't shit where they eat.
Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job.
He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it.
Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO.
sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion?
if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u
are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match?
Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective.
well clearly naniwa did not know what he agreed to because no remotely smart person would probe rush knowing he would lose code S to it
ive never played a tournament where someone said i HAD to play. giving walkovers is standard (if the game doesnt matter) and you get away with it in all tournaments ive played this far. so wouldnt be surprised if naniwa was under the same impressions
it's common sense that if ur in the booth on a televised match that ur expected to well... play it out? yes walkovers are given in tournaments but you dont get into the booth on tv then expect one. yes there are no tournaments where u HAVE to play, obviously u can just forfeit but ull be punished. i see ur point but ur examples arent that good. nanima should be punished and u know it, ur just letting nationalism blind ur judgement
The problem with that is up and down matches are casted and in a both yet the games that do not matter end up getting skipped, why do they have to be played out now?
Because these are the rules in this tournament?
FFS is it so hard? You sighn up for a tournament which has rules XXX. You play as you should. You get your starting money.
You don't do this and act contrary to the wishes of the tournament organisation? You get punished.
It's not fucking rocket science.
I feel your frustration, it's like people don't know how to interpret facts anymore.
Thing is Nani did play the game, not very well but it was PLAYED...its just the way he played it is the problem
On December 15 2011 02:42 Jepsyn wrote: People are saying "Money Hunter" like its a bad thing LOL
"You play to win the game" Only win. not be fluffy with your fands and smile and shake hands and hand everybody candy hearts. You Win. I like that he showed some emotion this whole Automaton thing at the GSL is getting old
So then it should be no problem to advance from Code A no?
On December 15 2011 02:41 The KY wrote: Well you weren't going to get that in the Nani v Nestea game, since both players were out and had nothing to gain from playing to their best and fullest potential. As Liquid'Tyler said, they would not and should not use their best strats against eachother in a meaningless game.
Tyler also agree that Naniwa's behavior was inappropriate and thus deserve punishment.
I'm pretty sure everyone on the show agreed that punishment should be light.
Then again, this is pretty light punishment. Since the MLG exchange program is changing in 2012, they just decided to not give Naniwa an invite (not one that he earned since those are gone) and give it to Sen instead.
Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy?
Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well...
He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this.
we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament
they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game
if i was in naniwas position id request for a walkover, if not id drink 10 cups of coffee and get some food poisioning or some shit. because a player never wants to act serious in a game. because if he loses people think he played bad and serious, and if he wins, people know his build order. its a lose lose situation for a player to get into a situation where he has to play a televised game that doesnt matter
You should probably watch some real sports, especially soccer. Do you see players of a team that got eliminated in the champions league that have to play the last match just sits on the field ?? No, they try to play as better as they can even if they are playing against Barcelona/Milan/Inter ecc.
No they play with their B-team instead....... Pointless point you are trying to make. Since the players have something to gain from these games they can improve their chances for a spot in the staring line up for the next game, and some of them might even have salaries depending on how many games they play. So dont make retarded arguments please since Naniwa had nothing to gain from that game.
sure naniwa had nothing to gain, but what about the people who paid to see the games? gomtv is not going to let naniwa shit on the people who paid to be entertained by their tickets lol
does naniwa get paid for exciting moves and nice plays? Does he get paid for being your dancing monkey? No, he gets paid if he wins and for representing his team/sponsors. If Nani looses sponsorship-contracts by doing sth. like this, I can understand it, but if you run a tournament with a bad format and expect a player to reveal strategies, endure stress and basically work for your entertainment without the possibility to gain any money from it, just because you are expecting it, you're not running a tournament, but variety-show and they should payN ani for it if they want him to entertain them.
How can ppl not get this: Progamers PLAY FOR MONEY! If you are entertained by them, good, but you cannot blame them for not entertaining you and not to work for free AND even reveal strategies/playstyles on live TV.
I mean, WTF: In recent history, Millenium has conceded 2 Clanwars in advance without even playing it out, so they could've even won those clanwars, but they didn't even try. What did IPL do? They apologized to the viewers and talked about it without going totally apeshit-crazy and Millenium got called out for it. Very simple and easy.
And to the ppl who payd for it: You didn't see it written somewhere that there was a minimum of games you'd be able to see and that they will at least be 5 minutes long and you can get your money back if you are not entertained, so don't act like little children and accept the fact that stuff like this happens.
THIS!!!! but its a double edged blade. GOM needs the players, the players need GOM. theres other tournies and theres other players. both have seperate interests and noone has to play by the other's rules. they can work together if they both want too. theres other tournies for naniwa to make money at and theres other players for gom to show. its a business move and time will tell if it was a good one for GOM or not. also time will tell if naniwa feels his character isnt making it in the esports industry. im all for self expression but theres a time when you need to smart up and shut up. however its not that time. hope naniwa tells GOM to kiss his ass and i hope other players bandwagon.
It's true what you say, but what is Naniwa to GOM? Nothing. There are heaps of players that could take Naniwas position, both in Korea and around the world; The GSL is also is one of the best SC2 tournements in the world.
You think other players will just boycott the GSL because of Naniwa? I doubt it, maybe some foreign players, but it still won't stop GOM from making a killing with their korean players, but lets face it, foreigners will still travel to Korea because that's the Holy Grail in SC2!
Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
Naniwa the best foreigner? Sorry to break it to you, but there is no best foreigner. Not one foreigner has put up consistent results to be the "best."
Is the word "best" too abstract for you?
Denying that for a group of people who are competing in a discipline someone must be the "best" shows you just fail to grasp the meaning of the word.
On December 15 2011 02:28 baoluvboa wrote: 1) Due to LXP agreement, Naniwa earned a Code S Seed. 2) 2012 had a format change, where GOM had two "code s seed" spots that they were going to use as invites instead of a direct MLG seed like the 2011 season. Due to this format change, Naniwa was supposed to be one of these code s seed invites instead of getting that direct MLG seed 3) Since they were spots they were going to use as invites, they saw yesterday's games and revoked that invitation using the excuse that it's an invitation.
1 and 2 contradict each other
2 is the correct one since it is 2012 and there was no seed from providence GOM considered him worthy because of providence but they chose not to invite him anymore due to his performance
Then it is less harsh since he did not earn a spot since the exchange was not concrete nor contractual. It is up to GOM and Naniwa messed it up
Let's be honest here - that is nothing but the previous situation dressed up in a pretty dress.
I would like to know whether you think the punishment is appropriate to the situation. ignore if you have already said so, I havnt read every page.
According to his twitter, he thinks that it was too much and nani should have paid a fine or receive less money
Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
This. Removing Naniwa from Code S, quite possibly the best foreigner in the world right now, to somehow preserve the integrity of their tournament is absolutely laughable when on the same day they invite Idra purely because of his popularity, even though his results lately have been abysmal and not even worthy of a Code A player. It's either a serious tournament or a popularity contest, can't have it both ways.
Haha at least Idra didn't go 0-10 in GSL when he played. Naniwa had 1 good weekend, other than that he hasn't has results worthy of a Code A player, on account of losing in the first round 3 times in a row. BTW he isn't the best foreigner.
@Ethan_Ahn Young-Hun. Ahn To clarify, NaNiwa was one of those who were considered to earn Code S seeds, but it was IdrA and Sen who is coming for #GSL Jan.
Please see below.
1) Due to LXP agreement, Naniwa earned a Code S Seed. 2) 2012 had a format change, where GOM had two "code s seed" spots that they were going to use as invites instead of a direct MLG seed like the 2011 season. Due to this format change, Naniwa was supposed to be one of these code s seed invites instead of getting that direct MLG seed 3) Since they were spots they were going to use as invites, they saw yesterday's games and revoked that invitation using the excuse that it's an invitation.
Edit: Apparently it was just announced on the Korean stream, so it's now official; Naniwa is out. Edit2: To clarify, it seems GOM has simply revoked Naniwa's Code S seed for the upcoming season, not banned him outright. Edit3: Here's the rule being used as justification: Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours
Can someone explain this to me? I dont get how Naniwa earned a Code S spot but at the same time its an invitation which needs to be decided?
Isn't it set in stone if he "earns" a code S spot?
Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
This. Removing Naniwa from Code S, quite possibly the best foreigner in the world right now, to somehow preserve the integrity of their tournament is absolutely laughable when on the same day they invite Idra purely because of his popularity, even though his results lately have been abysmal and not even worthy of a Code A player. It's either a serious tournament or a popularity contest, can't have it both ways.
This "best foreigner" goes 0-10 in GSL. Im actually questioning the quality of Code S if GOM includes a player who got whitewashed every single time in ro32 Code frickin' A. Is Naniwa that worthy ? I can imagine GSL becomes more of a "serious tournament" skill-wise by removing that kind of player.
EPT
