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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 02:43 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:39 Rostam wrote:
People can defend Naniwa all they like but from where I sit what he did makes him look exactly like a "money hunter". He was invited to this tournament because he's a skilled player and they knew the fans would like to see him play. He refused to play as soon as he lost a chance at winning money. He showed that the fans and the game itself aren't important to him, only the money.
However, I'm not sure it's justified to revoke his Code S seed for it if he earned it at MLG. They definitely should not bring him to any future invitational events, though. I don't know how people could spin doctor this so backwards. He cares about one thing and one thing only: Winning. The money is only the icing on the cake. He's said this so many times now that it's getting redundant. Furthermore, if he was a money hunter he would try to win as much as possible (taking 4th over 5th), but that wasn't the case now was it? Sorry, but players do this all the fucking time. Why do you think a lot of us keep preaching to make sure they players are in positions to win more money across the board? So shit like this doesn't happen as often.
My argument is backwards? He stood to gain no additional money from winning the game against Nestea. He did not try to win, demonstrating that the game itself and the fans who paid to watch the game were not a factor to him. Players do not probe rush in invitational tournaments all the time, sorry.
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On December 15 2011 02:40 2WeaK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:35 perestain wrote:On December 15 2011 02:25 ig0tfish wrote:
Hopefully this will save the integrity of e-sports. Naniwa spat in the faces of all the viewers. only in the face of those who prefer fake showmatches over real competition. Then again, wrestling should be their sport of choice. I stayed up expecting a match. Whether it was a fake showmatch, but at least show some effort. He made us stay there and waste our time. It would be much better if the last game ends, then the casters tell us "Okay, Naniwa forfeited, so the game won't be played" rather than "Naniwa vs Nestea, stay tuned!" that turns into a lolworker rush that lasted barely 2 minutes.
This right here the STEM of every argument in this thread. Some people expect people to fake a showmatch, even if it doesn't matter, and others don't.
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On December 15 2011 02:33 labbe wrote:
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore, this whole situation just shows how GOMTV has no respect for the foreign community, no respect for thier customers, and no respect for their players. This whole situation is an embarrassment for GOMTV, and everybody involved. They should man up and take some responsibility instead of making excuses.
I have lost all respect for GOMTV as a company. They are not the organization I want to lead the E-sports scene forward.
EDIT: I at least hopes that GOMTV takes this as a lesson, and starts to actually communicate with the community. If they had been clear on their rules and their seeding policy, none of this drama would have occurred.
To be fair, GOM does make an effort to invite foreign players, and their new format is especially foreigner-friendly. And they have nearly always invited foreigners to code A. I do agree that they should be more transparent as to how they decide which players get seeded, but they certainly do their part to help foreigners - Huk and Fenix both have a lot to thank Gom for.
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On December 15 2011 02:46 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:42 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 02:40 SpiffD wrote:
Okay GOM wants to make a statement. That's fine, but they are shitting on Naniwa fans. Their reason/rule is very vague and it is more likely they just wanted the more popular player Idra to compete. All this while Nani wasted resources coming to Korea in order to compete in code S. Naniwa with his action shitted on everything he could: His opponent which wanted revenge due to what happened at MLG. His fans due to not playing.The tournament/gom.tv due to not playing. His team due to not playing. Seriously... Even if there would not be any rule that rush would justify a ban. + Naniwa has a history of acting really... "stupid"... when it comes to tournaments in general so i'm prettty sure he would just do this again when not punished for it. Talk for yourself. There are plenty of people who didn't feel disrespected or "shitted on" or whatever. It's like saying that GOM disrespected the "entire foreign community". No, they made a decision that some people disagree with (and others agree). Same as Naniwa. He played in a way that upset plenty of people. At the same time many didn't care, were slightly amused or anything in between.
Any actual fans of NaNi would have stopped watching. I know I went to bed after he was eliminated. I figured the game would have been meaningless so it would: a) not be played b) not taken seriously. I forgot about the third option: c) player chooses b) as everyone expected but people have to make a huge deal at of it.
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On December 15 2011 01:26 Slin wrote:
Is there any way Nani can pursue legal action against GSL (or maybe MLG) for this obvious scam?
User was warned for this post
Since I was told in my warning message to please explain why I think this is a scam here is why: NaNiwa placed well in an MLG and got awarded a spot in the GSL code S. Then suddenly they took this spot away for no good reason thus scamming NaNiwa for much of his hard work. The GSL code S spot is a notable part of the MLG price pool. To me this is an obvious scam.
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On December 15 2011 02:41 ninjamyst wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:36 Aerakin wrote:
Gom had all the rights to punish Naniwa.
However, the punishment is way too big. You don't punish a player that hard on their first "offense".
First strike = you're out is bad bad bad. So the first time you cheat is ok? First time you steal is ok? The punishment isn't even that big. He didn't get banned from GSL. He can still qualify again. What Gom did wasn't that big of a deal.
Exactly. It's just one season of the GSL, get over it people.
No need to be outraged because naniwa got what he deserved (yeah, he did). If i were in charge, it would be a 3 seasons ban.
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On December 15 2011 02:36 Aerakin wrote:
Gom had all the rights to punish Naniwa.
However, the punishment is way too big. You don't punish a player that hard on their first "offense".
First strike = you're out is bad bad bad.
Are you saying that the punishment is way too big? Are you joking!! GOM had given him an opportunity to be sponsored to participate in Code S then decided not to. NaNiwa wasn't even qualified to be in Code S from the beginning (it's MLG's fault for making people believe that NaNiwa achieved Code S) and he can still participate Code A through GSL preliminary.
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On December 15 2011 02:46 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:44 sekritzzz wrote:On December 14 2011 18:38 CommunitySC wrote:@Ethan_Ahn Young-Hun. Ahn
To clarify, NaNiwa was one of those who were considered to earn Code S seeds, but it was IdrA and Sen who is coming for #GSL Jan. Please see below.1) Due to LXP agreement, Naniwa earned a Code S Seed.
2) 2012 had a format change, where GOM had two "code s seed" spots that they were going to use as invites instead of a direct MLG seed like the 2011 season. Due to this format change, Naniwa was supposed to be one of these code s seed invites instead of getting that direct MLG seed
3) Since they were spots they were going to use as invites, they saw yesterday's games and revoked that invitation using the excuse that it's an invitation.Edit: Apparently it was just announced on the Korean stream, so it's now official; Naniwa is out. Edit2: To clarify, it seems GOM has simply revoked Naniwa's Code S seed for the upcoming season, not banned him outright. Edit3: Here's the rule being used as justification: Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours Can someone explain this to me? I dont get how Naniwa earned a Code S spot but at the same time its an invitation which needs to be decided? Isn't it set in stone if he "earns" a code S spot? It's pointless semantics involving the format change with GSL. He basically had earned the Code S spot via Providence, but the format changed so they had to change it to one of two invitations which were planned for the new format. Then this stuff happened and he lost the Code S privelage and now you're up to date.
How can they take away something they already gave away? If I was a pro-gamer, the Code-S spot would be more valuable to me than the 10k or 20k I get from MLG. It'd be crazy if a tournament decided to withhold my prize money (code-S prize) due to an unrelated tournament where no rules were actually broken.
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Poland3751 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:39 Korelle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:31 kochanfe wrote:
Actually, as NaNiwa's the best foreigner, there aren't "heaps of people" that could take his place
This. Removing Naniwa from Code S, quite possibly the best foreigner in the world right now, to somehow preserve the integrity of their tournament is absolutely laughable when on the same day they invite Idra purely because of his popularity, even though his results lately have been abysmal and not even worthy of a Code A player. It's either a serious tournament or a popularity contest, can't have it both ways.
I don't know about abysmal. His match against NesTea in MLG invitational was pretty and of course the latest major tournament - NASL - was underwhelming a bit but it wasn't so horrible. Also I believe he was rather tired at a time, traveling all the time and such.
Still his results - after winning IEM/ROG - were rather unimpressive and definitely not Code S level. Surely NaNiwa presented himself better but IdrA was, after him and probably HuK, the most accomplished player recently from EU & NA.
I don't exactly understand why Sen. XiGua seems much better choice...
Was there a real alternative for IdrA except for Stephano who - I believe - stated that he doesn't want to move to Korea?
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On December 15 2011 02:48 Slin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:26 Slin wrote:
Is there any way Nani can pursue legal action against GSL (or maybe MLG) for this obvious scam?
User was warned for this post Since I was told in my warning message to please explain why I think this is a scam here is why: NaNiwa placed well in an MLG and got awarded a spot in the GSL code S. Then suddenly they took this spot away for no good reason thus scamming NaNiwa for much of his hard work. The GSL code S spot is a notable part of the MLG price pool. To me this is an obvious scam.
You need to read the first post. It was not awarded contractually, just that he was the highest candidate in their selection.
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On December 15 2011 02:48 LeopoldStotch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:43 ToasteR_ wrote:On December 15 2011 02:43 LeopoldStotch wrote:On December 15 2011 02:38 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 02:36 ToasteR_ wrote:On December 15 2011 02:34 Bluerain wrote:On December 15 2011 02:25 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 02:23 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 02:21 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 02:18 Femari wrote:
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Naniwa shouldn't be forced to be an actor, but if he should do his job.
He is a pro gamer. He legally agreed to the format and to said he'd play all the games. Naniwa acted highly unprofessionally and childish. So what you went 0-3, you agreed to the format and said you'd play all your games. Instead you threw a fit and decided fuck GOM I'm going to throw this game and he got punished for it.
Naniwa is the one destroying the integrity of the game. GOM is being a professional organization and not rolling over cause some childish player is upset of a format that HE AGREED TO. sorry but were you in the same room where gomtv talked to naniwa about the terms and wether or wether not he had to play all his games regardless of the situataion? if what your saying is true, if they player agrees before the tournament to play all the games regardless of the situation, then yes he did wrong. but if thats not the case your just lying and theres no reason to discuss with u are you saying Naniwa didnt read or know about the format? before agreeing to play in front of TV audience in a scheduled match? Morrow, I wish you all the best in korea and show foreigner pride but I just dont support such perspective. well clearly naniwa did not know what he agreed to because no remotely smart person would probe rush knowing he would lose code S to it ive never played a tournament where someone said i HAD to play. giving walkovers is standard (if the game doesnt matter) and you get away with it in all tournaments ive played this far. so wouldnt be surprised if naniwa was under the same impressions it's common sense that if ur in the booth on a televised match that ur expected to well... play it out? yes walkovers are given in tournaments but you dont get into the booth on tv then expect one. yes there are no tournaments where u HAVE to play, obviously u can just forfeit but ull be punished. i see ur point but ur examples arent that good. nanima should be punished and u know it, ur just letting nationalism blind ur judgement The problem with that is up and down matches are casted and in a both yet the games that do not matter end up getting skipped, why do they have to be played out now? Because these are the rules in this tournament? FFS is it so hard? You sighn up for a tournament which has rules XXX. You play as you should. You get your starting money. You don't do this and act contrary to the wishes of the tournament organisation? You get punished. It's not fucking rocket science. I feel your frustration, it's like people don't know how to interpret facts anymore. Thing is Nani did play the game, not very well but it was PLAYED...its just the way he played it is the problem In many people's eyes that could not be considered a game. The only people who think that's a legit strategy are his blind defenders.
It doesnt matter if its not considered a game in peoples eyes or not, or even if they try to defend that its a legit start.
Thing is he logged into his SC2 account, accepted the invite to play vs Nestea from the tourney organizer and then "played" the game.
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On December 15 2011 02:47 ToasteR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:45 dp wrote:
His personal view on the situation is irrelevant. For example, lets imagine he was invited to a show match where the winner takes $5,000 and the loser takes $2,500. What if his mindset that day is that he only needs $2,500, so the match is meaningless. He probe rushes 3 games outta 5, losing outright. The contract doesn't necessarily state that he has to TRY to win the matches to get paid. You think this is OK? Of a professional? Grow up. Your personal views on the situation don't matter. You are being paid to provide entertainment to fans. If you don't feel the need to do your job, there is a good chance you won't have one.
No one would be satisfied with $2500 when $5000 can be won, your example is terrible.
Maybe you are confused. It doesn't matter what you think. Remember? Only what he thinks. Because the world revolves around his mindset. If you can't understand the point of my post, don't respond with mindless dribble. K, thanks, bye.
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On December 15 2011 02:46 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:42 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 02:40 SpiffD wrote:
Okay GOM wants to make a statement. That's fine, but they are shitting on Naniwa fans. Their reason/rule is very vague and it is more likely they just wanted the more popular player Idra to compete. All this while Nani wasted resources coming to Korea in order to compete in code S. Naniwa with his action shitted on everything he could: His opponent which wanted revenge due to what happened at MLG. His fans due to not playing.The tournament/gom.tv due to not playing. His team due to not playing. Seriously... Even if there would not be any rule that rush would justify a ban. + Naniwa has a history of acting really... "stupid"... when it comes to tournaments in general so i'm prettty sure he would just do this again when not punished for it. Talk for yourself. There are plenty of people who didn't feel disrespected or "shitted on" or whatever. It's like saying that GOM disrespected the "entire foreign community". No, they made a decision that some people disagree with (and others agree). Same as Naniwa. He played in a way that upset plenty of people. At the same time many didn't care, were slightly amused or anything in between.
He's speaking for quite a few people. If you didn't have selective reading, you would see that a lot of people are happy Naniwa got that punishment.
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On December 15 2011 02:46 Hrrrrm wrote:
The best part about all this controversy is if Naniwa canon rushes no one says a single thing, because he decided to 7 probe rush just to end the game quicker so he can go home it immediately becomes about him not "trying". He wouldn't of given a single fuck about the game either way guys. He didn't try as minimally as we think he should have! Burn him at the stake!
People are okay to be disappointed, but GOM revoking a freaking Code S spot because he 7 probe rushed instead of canon rushed to get a game which had absolutely nothing on the line over as quickly as possible is freaking retarded. Thing is if Naniwa beats Nestea, people will say it was a pointless game because they weren't playing for anything. Same thing if Nestea beats Naniwa in a "straight up" game. The game shouldn't of even been on schedule the MOMENT Nestea and Naniwa had no chance of advancing UNLESS they both agreed that they wanted to go through with it.
GOM just completely screwed up and Naniwa is now the scapegoat.
but that's where all the difference lies between respect and disrespect
cannon rushing is an actual strategy. 7 probe rush is not. it doesn't matter what naniwa thinks,
gomtv can't not punish naniwa in this case because he so blatantly intentionally lost.
I don't think it's extreme. Think about coca vs byun; in the end, all coca did was intentionally lose.
He got BANNED from GSL. It wouldn't make sense for gomtv to not do something about naniwa in this case.
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What I wonder if the reason that he throwed away the game is really the big deal. Idra tweeted something I found very clever "dont have meaningless matches if you want players to take them seriously."
Afaik he didnt feel like playing a meaningless game. I have an understanding for that. But if that is the only reason, why dont they play all games in a BO7? Even if someone has a 4-0 lead they should be consistent and make them play the other 3 games just because they are pro-gamers. I didnt want to watch the rest of the games when I figured that the people moving on in the tournament was done, I don't see the point in watching a game that matters to 0% becuase I want them to really really wanna win and play their best.
On the other hand, Nani should know that in korea it's more than about just winning. I do think he deserves a minor punishment, like a fine or so which would make him calm down or so. But to remove his code s invite is too harsh
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On December 15 2011 02:43 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:33 labbe wrote:
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore, this whole situation just shows how GOMTV has no respect for the foreign community Then why do you think GOM hands out Code A seeds to foreigners who would otherwise be unable to compete for them the usual way?
GOMTV rely on the "foreign" audience. SC2 isn't that popular in Korea and the Korean audience get GSL for free with ads. Advertisement pay a lot less per viewer than paid ones.
So we are very important for them but that doesn't stop them for treating us in a very condescending way. Do you think it was a coincident that they announced Idra and Sen to Code S at the same time that they announced their Naniwa decision?
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I don't get all the fuzz. People act as if Koreans only did that to foreigners when it also happens to Korean players.. Aside from that I think there is a TON of support for foreigners from GOM. Look at how many foreigners made it through the Code A qualifiers in Korea -- getting Code A / S spots is a fucking favor GOM is doing for foreign players.
So what if Naniwa didn't get it? His results in Korea recently were horrible. Also we will have Idra, Huk and Sen to cheer for.
If Naniwa steps up his game (aka practices his ass off) he can try working his way up like all the Koreans in the second GSL season 2012. To see how fucking nice GOM would have been to him and what he threw away.
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GOM is trolling me. I was not going to buy the season pass when I heard this then news came out of sen and idra being invited to code S. What a terrible punishment by GOM to ban Naniwa. A fine would have been more appropriate.
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This should put MLG in a precarious position actually.
1) MLG and its employees made it clear that Naniwa would recieve a code S spot from his performance at providence.
2) MLG tolerates players forfeiting games. Several well known players have forfeited there consolation seeding games after being knocked out of the championship bracket. They can therefor not logically endorse GOMTV punishing a player for essentially refusing to play an even less meaningful match.
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Hmmm wow this is very interesting. Like what they said on sotg last night, where do you draw the line on what strats are "abusive and offensive". I'm sure Naniwa will think twice though before doing something like that again. Could you imagine if he said joke tournament during a gsl code S live match? To my understanding MLG did not punish Naniwa in any way for doing that.
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EPT
