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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people. Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned! - Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM - Comparing people to Hitler - Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. | ||
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wangstra
922 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:44 Femari wrote: That's cause they still try to do their job no matter what. Naniwa could learn something from them. /sigh never mind... | ||
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Europes-Mima
Germany33 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:42 Velr wrote: Seriously... Even if there would not be any rule that rush would justify a ban. . seriously "seriously" ? omg, just try to think one step further... | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
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TheAura
96 Posts
im quite sure that the minnesota vikings with still play the redskins on christmas eve, even though neither have a shot at making it ot the NFL playofs. The redskins arent going to hail mary every single play, they are oging to go out their and still try, maybe not their hardest but with will play and everyone will be happy. this can be said for many sports, so why not esports? Why defend naniwa where if this was done in somehting other than e-sports most of you would be disgusted. remember in korea this is basically their national sport. he did something that had 0 percent chance of success. it would be akin to something of similar nature in the NFL or MLB if in the states. he just did not want to play, and did not give a crap about his fans or viewers. Obviously he shouldnt go out there and use a new build hes working on, but an intense game against a top korean on stage is, at the very least, good experience and using the excuse "the game didnt matter for either of us" is just a selfish point of view. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:42 wangstra wrote: From those guys you couldn't tell that anyone was offended. Yup. Cause and effect of a shit storm. Gom felt threatened and now they made a scapegoat out of Johan for an extreme example of what every other player does when shit don't matter. Just like esports dollars. Let's make all matches NR 20 minutes and players must bow/curtsey to one another before every match. | ||
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dp
United States234 Posts
His personal view on the situation is irrelevant. For example, lets imagine he was invited to a show match where the winner takes $5,000 and the loser takes $2,500. What if his mindset that day is that he only needs $2,500, so the match is meaningless. He probe rushes 3 games outta 5, losing outright. The contract doesn't necessarily state that he has to TRY to win the matches to get paid. You think this is OK? Of a professional? Grow up. Your personal views on the situation don't matter. You are being paid to provide entertainment to fans. If you don't feel the need to do your job, there is a good chance you won't have one. Welcome to the real world. And to all those apologetic, he wasn't in the right mind set, the rules weren't on paper that he couldn't do that.. time to wake up. You know your responsibilities at your job. Having a bad day doesn't negate them. And to Morrow, stop defending unprofessional behavior. Naniwa asked for a w.o. He was denied it. Can you deny it was pretty clear he was required to play the game?.. | ||
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Hrrrrm
United States2081 Posts
People are okay to be disappointed, but GOM revoking a freaking Code S spot because he 7 probe rushed instead of canon rushed to get a game which had absolutely nothing on the line over as quickly as possible is freaking retarded. Thing is if Naniwa beats Nestea, people will say it was a pointless game because they weren't playing for anything. Same thing if Nestea beats Naniwa in a "straight up" game. The game shouldn't of even been on schedule the MOMENT Nestea and Naniwa had no chance of advancing UNLESS they both agreed that they wanted to go through with it. GOM just completely screwed up and Naniwa is now the scapegoat. | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:44 sekritzzz wrote: Can someone explain this to me? I dont get how Naniwa earned a Code S spot but at the same time its an invitation which needs to be decided? Isn't it set in stone if he "earns" a code S spot? Only point 2 is correct. Point 1 is just old and no longer in actual contract. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
He wants to act like a baby? He will get treated like one. Gom made the right choice | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:42 Velr wrote: Naniwa with his action shitted on everything he could: His opponent which wanted revenge due to what happened at MLG. His fans due to not playing. The tournament/gom.tv due to not playing. His team due to not playing. Seriously... Even if there would not be any rule that rush would justify a ban. + Naniwa has a history of acting really... "stupid"... when it comes to tournaments in general so i'm prettty sure he would just do this again when not punished for it. Talk for yourself. There are plenty of people who didn't feel disrespected or "shitted on" or whatever. It's like saying that GOM disrespected the "entire foreign community". No, they made a decision that some people disagree with (and others agree). Same as Naniwa. He played in a way that upset plenty of people. At the same time many didn't care, were slightly amused or anything in between. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:44 sekritzzz wrote: Can someone explain this to me? I dont get how Naniwa earned a Code S spot but at the same time its an invitation which needs to be decided? Isn't it set in stone if he "earns" a code S spot? It's pointless semantics involving the format change with GSL. He basically had earned the Code S spot via Providence, but the format changed so they had to change it to one of two invitations which were planned for the new format. Then this stuff happened and he lost the Code S privelage and now you're up to date. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
Now, one day after the controversy of naniwas match against nestea, and after having publically stated that: "NaNiwa is baned 2012 GSL codeS Season#1 Seed. so, GamaniaSen is coming! [2] #GSL [3] #SC2", suddenly GOM thinks of informing the public and naniwa of this change of system. They are infact not banning naniwa from code S, but just not inviting him to the tournament. There are two options. 1) GOM is coming up with a story in order to make a controversial decision less so. Naniwa was indeed banned from code S, but the implication, that GOM can backtrack on an agreement with MLG and a player on no other basis than that they feel like, doesn't look good and so they come up with a story to make it seem less controversial. 2) Events did in fact transpire as described by GOM, with some pretty startling implication. Though they no longer consider naniwa qualified for code S, they do not inform him, his team, their partner mlg or the public of this change of policy, even though the player in question is establishing himself in S Korea with the expectation of playing code S in january. I'm not sure which situation is preferable. I find the implications of what has happened pretty disturbing. Either, GOM is lying, or they failed to inform any of the involved partied of their change of policy. They make no consideration of the player who is basing his life around his expected qualification, nor apparently of their business partner. Some might call that 'unprofessional'.. | ||
ePLocust
United States587 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:45 StarStruck wrote: Yup. Cause and effect of a shit storm. Gom felt threatened and now they made a scapegoat out of Johan for an extreme example of what every other player does when shit don't matter. Just like esports dollars. what? they're commenters, they are not going to go raging in middle of their job. The Korean community is mad, you don't have to question that. See MC recent interview | ||
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ToasteR_
Canada551 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:45 dp wrote: His personal view on the situation is irrelevant. For example, lets imagine he was invited to a show match where the winner takes $5,000 and the loser takes $2,500. What if his mindset that day is that he only needs $2,500, so the match is meaningless. He probe rushes 3 games outta 5, losing outright. The contract doesn't necessarily state that he has to TRY to win the matches to get paid. You think this is OK? Of a professional? Grow up. Your personal views on the situation don't matter. You are being paid to provide entertainment to fans. If you don't feel the need to do your job, there is a good chance you won't have one. No one would be satisfied with $2500 when $5000 can be won, your example is terrible. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45024 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:41 Femari wrote: A one event ban is way too much? Be happy Naniwa wasn't demoted to B-team and kicked out of the team house. That's what Koreans get. He threw a game, they revoked his Code S privelage. Can't do stupid shit like that. He threw a game that shouldn't have even been played in a tournament that wasn't even in the GSL for absolutely no bearing in the progression of the competition. Probably not the smartest thing he's ever done, but it's not necessarily comparable to other thrown games. | ||
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:44 sekritzzz wrote: Can someone explain this to me? I dont get how Naniwa earned a Code S spot but at the same time its an invitation which needs to be decided? Isn't it set in stone if he "earns" a code S spot? No, basically the MLG system is being changed in 2012. GSL January did not have a Code S seed to give the MLG Providence Winner. Instead, it had 2 "Sponsor Invite" spots to give away at GOM's discretion. GOM planned to give the spot to Naniwa and Idra. After the probe rush, they decided not to invite Naniwa. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
I think when you step back from your like or dislike of Nani as a person/player etc. and step back from whether or not GOM had the proper format in place the key issue comes down to this : The whole situation creates a very slippery slope. You are basically saying that there are limits on certain strategies because those strategies are viewed as not "respecting the opponent" or putting proper effort into the competition. But where is the line drawn? I mean we've already seen that a probe rush can win games, granted it is a .0000000001% chance to work at that high level of competition and we know Nani was just throwing the game, but what if instead he made 1 gateway, built 1 zealot, and sent all his probes. Is that acceptable? Do we need to put in the rules that all protoss players are required to at least attempt a 1-base 4 gate, otherwise the game isn't respectful enough to the opponent? What about all the terran players that just a few minutes into the game say, "screw it I'm pulling all my scvs bringing a few marines and just going all-in." Yes it is a strategy that can win a game, and a viable strategy, but I'd say pretty "disrespectful" to your opponent and certainly not enjoyable to the fans to watch, especially those players that every game in a series did the same cheese type builds. It just seems to me like this is the type of thing that might happen. You can try to create better formats/prize money incentives to help prevent it, but the players have the right to choose to play a game however they want. An organization should not dictate that, because it ruins the purity of the game. Should we add a rule that you can't 6pool either? I think ultimately these types of things don't need a reaction from GOM in anyway. It will sort itself out. Nani would have clearly learned a lesson by the backlash and known that you need to provide the fans more than that, and GOM could have used it as a chance to examine their system and realize why something like that happened. The rule that Nani apparently violated is so vague and arbitrary, it can be applied in way to many instances. Make the rule, "No probe rushing," then. This to me just seems like one of those instances where there is way to much drama. I think Nani, when you really get down to it, did nothing actually wrong as far as going by the book. Was it the right thing to do? Probably not, but it wasn't wrong, it wasn't illegal, he didn't use a map hack, he didn't cheat. This should have been one of those learning situations for eSports organizers, and players. The fans are excited to watch you play, even if nothing is on the line and the organizers need to understand that without incentives players might mail it in and they can't force them to play a certain way. If they knew that Nani v. Nestea was such a marquee game, then make it the first game of the day so that no matter what they do from that point the game mattered. Don't put it at the end knowing it might mean nothing. tl;dr : I feel this could have been one of those eSports moments where everyone learned lessons, all sides apologized, and the result would have been stronger tournament setups and players understanding the importance of the fans and the fans reactions to ANY game regardless of what is on the line. The player still have every right to play how they want, but knowing the type of backlash you might get from doing something like that will probably be incentive enough for most players to take any televised/anticipated game seriously. Instead I feel we've ended up with a situation that just makes what Nani did look even worse, makes GOM look bad, and ultimately went from a learning strengthening experience for eSports to an overall negative where everyone has lost out. | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:46 Femari wrote: It's pointless semantics involving the format change with GSL. He basically had earned the Code S spot via Providence, but the format changed so they had to change it to one of two invitations which were planned for the new format. Then this stuff happened and he lost the Code S privelage and now you're up to date. It is not pointless semantics. The first one is a contractual agreement while the second (the real situation) is a privilege that Naniwa lost due to his misconduct. | ||
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LeopoldStotch
United States158 Posts
On December 15 2011 02:43 ToasteR_ wrote: Thing is Nani did play the game, not very well but it was PLAYED...its just the way he played it is the problem In many people's eyes that could not be considered a game. The only people who think that's a legit strategy are his blind defenders. | ||
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