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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 22:36 Chenz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:32 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 22:27 0800 wrote:On December 14 2011 22:23 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 22:21 Starcraftmazter wrote:What is most troubling to me, is that most people are completely missing the key issues here. My email to GOM: Hello A few days ago, I purchased the GSL Premium Yearly Ticket (My account email address is the same as this and the same one as my PayPal account for verification). I am very unhappy with your completely unprofessional decision to punish Naniwa for doing nothing wrong against the rules, quite arbitrarily - while not punishing any Korean player, ever for any sort of "misbehavior". In particular the rule you are using as justification in regards to disrespect and offence of players can be used in many instances. For instance, in some GSTL, oGsMC went over and banged the both of his enemy player before the game. This is easily both offensive and disrespectful - yet no action was taken. This is but one prominent example, and I am not suggesting any action should have been taken; rather I am pointing out the unprofessional arbitrary enforcement of that rule, which seems to be applied against foreigners only. Furthermore, I find the insulting slur of "Mr Chae" on Naniwa very unprofessional and ill conceived, this along with other previous events clearly shows your bias against non-Korean players and casters. Overall, I am rather angered by the precedent that this sets, allowing GoMTV to disqualify, remove and otherwise take action against players based entirely on what you believe to be some form of bad play. Looking back at Blizzard Cup, LiquidHero also played very poorly (but unlike Naniwai who showed very impressive games, I would say all of Hero's games were very bad), and his last two games especially were very amateur in nature, as he stopped trying. This is not an objective matter either, and in particular in Hero's game against DRG, he have DRG a win - in a game which *actually mattered* to the outcome of the tournament, whereas the game between Naniwa and Nestea did not. I do not see any action taken again Hero for this? And I am a fan of Hero, but I am merely pointing out the double standards which exists in the GSL with Korean and non-Korean players. I cannot understand why you think the foreign audience doesn't see this - do you take us all for fools? My question is, where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to draw it arbitrarily so? And at what stage can a player be kicked out for cheesing? Why are certain types of cheese ok (like 6pool) whereas others not? Naniwai could have just as easily 4gated or cannon rushed and lost - all that would have achieved is wasting more of everyone's time. I would argue that in not wasting said time that Naniwai actually has far more respect for viewers and fans than you do, so I find your decision very arbitrary and reckless. Why for instance was BitbybitPrime not punished using this very same rule? Naniwa works extremely hard, practising more than the vast majority of players (Korean and non-Korean alike) to play the best games for his fans. This is more than I can say about what BitbyBit did - and the same goes for many other players over time. To then be punished and be insulted like so, is extremely unjustifiable. You clearly do not understand that people are all different, and some get quite emotional in some situations. Next is the issue of MLG seeds into GSL code S. You have now broken your partnership with MLG, as you have failed to keep your end of the bargain. This is a further slap in the face to foreigners and foreign tournaments. Even if Naniwa's seed eventually gets replaced by another foreigner, that doesn't change the fact that you are illegitimising a foreign tournament by taking away it's right to seed a player into GSL Code S, and instead stealing that decision for yourselves. It has also come to my attention that you have deleted comments you have made about revoking Naniwai's code S seed claiming he never had it. This does not exactly add to your credibility, as it is not exactly a secret that he did. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-programThe rules are stated very clearly, he earned his code S spot in Providence. I am unsure why you would try to claim he did not - again, do you take foreigners for complete idiots? You must understand, at this stage this is far beyond the Naniwa vs Nestea game. Now the bias of GomTV against foreigners as well as the behaviour of the tournament organisers to do whatever they want regardless of the rules is put in question. Furthermore on that note, you have taken a complete lack of responsibility for designing a tournament system which allows for meaningless games that don't have any result on any outcome. In conclusion, I am very displeased with this. I have supported the GSL and payed for virtually every season and event single since I first learned about it in 2010. Even these days, I end up defending GomTV from all the bad comments about the stream quality being far worse than MLG and Dreamhack - even on "HD". I really love Tastosis and always tune in to watch them cast regardless of who's playing. But this is really the last straw for me, I cannot possibly support you any longer as it seems to me that you have lost your integrity. Unless you plan to fully reverse your decision to take Naniwai's code S spot, or hand out any meaningful punishment in general (perhaps you can make it as meaningless as the game for which he was punished?), I request a full refund. If this refund is not given, or this email disregarded, I will take it up with PayPal. As the year 2012 has not even started yet, I am sure there is zero argument against getting a full refund. Lastly, being a long-term supporter, I appreciate this email be passed to some form of management so that my feelings be conveyed to them - as I believe I have made a lot of good arguments, which really deserve to be thought about by the management of the GSL. Thank You --- I hope you got your facts straight before sending that email  Naniwa got his seed from MLG and the factual information presented on the Email seems accurate to me. If you post sentences like that, including a smiley face at the end, you should also spend the time to say why you think what he stated is incorrect, rather than suggesting something and then lacking to provide proof for what you are saying. Check out the latest information making rounds. Apparently there was a misunderstanding regarding the GSL/MLG exchange. Proof? No Code A seeds and no Korean invites to MLG Providence. Basically what happened is that they would've given one of the two Code S seeds of January to Naniwa based on his performance all year long, not because of the exchange program. He then disqualified himself from it by showing bad sportsmanship. They did not take anything away from him, Mr Chae just said something publicly in response to the reactions of the Korean community. It seems to have been translated wrongly and started this shitstorm. Give up. Even Tastosis said on todays stream that Naniwas Code S seed had been revoked. If GOM officially claims they've revoked Naniwas seed, who are you to say otherwise?
Hopefully they'll release a proper statement soon without misunderstandings
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On December 14 2011 22:18 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:17 Jellikit wrote:On December 14 2011 22:06 Zzoram wrote:
I hope since Naniwa is NOT banned that participates in the Code A qualifiers, smashes through to Code A, then keeps on going until he qualifies for Code S. I hope so too Gomtv is being silly, its their format that made the game 100% insignificant to the players No man. In Korea every game is played to the fullest. Even if you aren't "trying your hardest" "at least you tried." We just forgot that GOM gets to determine what amount of effort a player has give in a game that has seriously no implications at all.
Except in the normal GOM shows, and except in all BoX matches where a winner have already been declared.
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On December 14 2011 22:29 NeoSlicerZ wrote:
Wait, i thought the gsl was being held in South korea, not North.
You are my favourite Irish person right now sir. Corporatism or military autocracy, all the same.
People saying that NaNiWa had it coming, yeah, sort of. But you don't make up rules on the spot to punish someone whose face you don't like when there is money and an athletic career on the line. Might I remind you people that Nani played to the highest standards in his first 3 games, infuriating as they were.
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On December 14 2011 22:38 hacky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:35 Hubris wrote:
Am I the only one reading some the racist, ignorant, and BM posts by people "boycotting" GOM's events feeling happy that these sort of people aren't going to be in the audience? I think I'm more inclined to buy tickets knowing that the fan base should be more mature than usual. I find it ironic many people here acting a fool are just as BM as Naniwa's actions at that, and previous tournies. This! Cleaner LR threads? Still unlikely, but I'll take a few less wtf posts any day.
Agree 100%
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On December 14 2011 22:36 Algol wrote:
This is such a bad decision by GOM. Had he just cannon-rushed or used any other super quick cheese no one would have have cared but the end result of the game would have been the same.
In many foreigner tournaments players forfeit games all the time (Stefano 6pools cloud twice in a row at dreamhack, Idra forfeited all his group stage games at IPL). To me this seems like a culture difference between the Korean and foreigner starcraft community. GOM needs to specify rules against this kind of things beforehand, not punishing players who may not even be that familiar with the unspoken "Korean way of a progamer".
To revoke Naniwa's code S spot is more of a spit in the face of the foreigner community by GOM. Naniwa is forced to play a meaningless match, which he at any foreigner tournament would have just forfeited.
Anyone know a good way to reach out to GOM and let them know my/our discontent with this decision?
Such a large spit in the face of the foreigner community that another foreigner has taken his place.
Anyway, Mr. Chae has a twitter account, so that's one way of letting him know.
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What he did was disrespectful, largely because the tournament was invitation only. If you don't act professionally, you won't get invited again.
ex) gsl
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On December 14 2011 22:37 bkrow wrote:
What an outrageous and ridiculous decision from GOM. Way to react to the knee-jerk responses from an online community. Naniwa said he was not in a position to play his best, so did a strategy that he thought would be quick and easy. The worst part is now GOM has set a precedent that allows them to decide how much effort a player must put in to avoid getting banned.
Was Nani's build "unethical"? Yes. Was it wrong? No. I feel that players should be able to play the way the wish - no matter if it is cheesing, probe rushing or a long macro game. As long as Nani isn't actually cheating then why should he get punished for what he did? This is a pretty stupid infringement on Nani's rights as a player
I wish I had half-decent english so I could say right and intelligent stuff like this.
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People will forget this when the second season comes around. GSL had to do something about this guys. Get over it. You don't get away easy with disrespecting a game. Coca lost his spot for disrespecting the game (granted its not the same thing) but you cant disrespect the game.
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On December 14 2011 22:37 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:36 Algol wrote:
This is such a bad decision by GOM. Had he just cannon-rushed or used any other super quick cheese no one would have have cared but the end result of the game would have been the same.
In many foreigner tournaments players forfeit games all the time (Stefano 6pools cloud twice in a row at dreamhack, Idra forfeited all his group stage games at IPL). To me this seems like a culture difference between the Korean and foreigner starcraft community. GOM needs to specify rules against this kind of things beforehand, not punishing players who may not even be that familiar with the unspoken "Korean way of a progamer".
To revoke Naniwa's code S spot is more of a spit in the face of the foreigner community by GOM. Naniwa is forced to play a meaningless match, which he at any foreigner tournament would have just forfeited.
Anyone know a good way to reach out to GOM and let them know my/our discontent with this decision? Once again, he never had a fucking Code S spot to begin with.
So MLG casters, staff and even Tasteless is not enough to prove you otherwise? You're a lost cause...
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On December 14 2011 22:39 drinkpepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:35 Hubris wrote:
Am I the only one reading some the racist, ignorant, and BM posts by people "boycotting" GOM's events feeling happy that these sort of people aren't going to be in the audience? I think I'm more inclined to buy tickets knowing that the fan base should be more mature than usual. I find it ironic many people here acting a fool are just as BM as Naniwa's actions at that, and previous tournies. The real irony here is that the biggest perpetrator of racism in this instance is GOM.
How does this even make sense..
From past precedents, Korean players are treated just as harshly.
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Well I will be revoking my usual buying of the gomtv stream then. This is pathetic, the real issue here is not what Naniwa did but that the format allowed for meaningless games, way to punish the player for your own mistakes GSL.
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It was the right decision. Had this not been a foreigner I think people would be able to look at this more reasonably, not just from the perspective of a fan but also GOM's. The precedent that this kind of behavior isn't acceptable needed to be set.
The most regrettable thing about all this is that actual Blizzard Cup, the most prestigious tournament in SC2's history, might be overshadowed by the antics of a player who's as of now 0-10 in the GSL. I hope that's not the case.
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On December 14 2011 22:37 Incomplet wrote:Poll: Did GOM make the right decision with Naniwa?No (170) 51% Yes, justice must be served! (123) 37% He needs to be punished but they went too far (42) 13% 335 total votes Your vote: Did GOM make the right decision with Naniwa? (Vote): Yes, justice must be served!
(Vote): He needs to be punished but they went too far
(Vote): No
Option 4: GOM didn't punish anything, they just went with different foreigners and MLG ran their PR mouth incorrectly by continuously stating Naniwa had made it. GOM of course didn't refute this, because perhaps they were thinking of bringing in Naniwa but had yet to make the decision.
At least that's how I'm reading the very very very conflicting and rumour based reports.
I should just sleep and see what shitstorm has occured by the time I wake up.
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What the hell do you expect happens if you probe rush in a tournament like that? If he didn't see it coming, he deserved it.
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On December 14 2011 22:24 archonOOid wrote:
why wasn't his team-mate SaSe offered the code S spot or his fellow countryman Morrow? Feels like GOM might hold a grudge vs swedes... I might contact the local embassy to see whether that's the case. It also feels like GOM tried to set naniwa up because they know that he has a temper. I could go on and on about GOM/GSL and I have to say that they are conducting their business very fishy.
What the fuck is with all these racism claims. Is the world full of this many batshit crazy people? Jinro lived with Koreans, and is highly respected. GOM invites Nani to Blizz cup in the first place. If they were racist, why would they even do that. For christ sake people give your head a shake. Mr Chae and GOM have done a shit load of work to get the foreign community involved in the GSL. To even be throwing claims like racism out over an immature players horrible behavious is ludicrous.
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On December 14 2011 22:37 Beyond Magic wrote:
i think naniwa got what he deserved.
He doesn't understand that some his fans bought blizz cup ticket to see him play.
even if he's already dropped out, he could've still showed us a great game.
In his interview he stated "If I could do it again i would just 4 gate and then people wouldnt have complained"
this already shows that when he dropped and there was nothing for him to gain out of that tournament, he didnt give a shit anymore.
He still could have played a good game which could've been an epic clash between very high lvl players which is what the viewers are paying to get.
For Players it might not be that exciting to play when there is nothing at stake but for viewers it is, its always cool to see high lvl players playing.
Naniwa doesn't understand his responsibilities as pro player and if this stuff keeps going on, i don't see him being around much longer, quite many Leagues and Teams have already had enough of his childish and unprofessional acting, i dont think player like that will get sponsored when he can't participate on most of the major events.
So if he pretends to care about the last game its ok? So you would rather watch hypocrites over people acting the way they feel?
And ofcourse he didnt care anymore, who would care?? 30 min earlier you are knocked out of a big tournament. For some people this is a devastating blow which takes at least a few hours to come to terms with.
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On December 14 2011 22:37 Xax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:35 Xalorian wrote:On December 14 2011 22:32 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 22:27 0800 wrote:On December 14 2011 22:23 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 22:21 Starcraftmazter wrote:What is most troubling to me, is that most people are completely missing the key issues here. My email to GOM: Hello A few days ago, I purchased the GSL Premium Yearly Ticket (My account email address is the same as this and the same one as my PayPal account for verification). I am very unhappy with your completely unprofessional decision to punish Naniwa for doing nothing wrong against the rules, quite arbitrarily - while not punishing any Korean player, ever for any sort of "misbehavior". In particular the rule you are using as justification in regards to disrespect and offence of players can be used in many instances. For instance, in some GSTL, oGsMC went over and banged the both of his enemy player before the game. This is easily both offensive and disrespectful - yet no action was taken. This is but one prominent example, and I am not suggesting any action should have been taken; rather I am pointing out the unprofessional arbitrary enforcement of that rule, which seems to be applied against foreigners only. Furthermore, I find the insulting slur of "Mr Chae" on Naniwa very unprofessional and ill conceived, this along with other previous events clearly shows your bias against non-Korean players and casters. Overall, I am rather angered by the precedent that this sets, allowing GoMTV to disqualify, remove and otherwise take action against players based entirely on what you believe to be some form of bad play. Looking back at Blizzard Cup, LiquidHero also played very poorly (but unlike Naniwai who showed very impressive games, I would say all of Hero's games were very bad), and his last two games especially were very amateur in nature, as he stopped trying. This is not an objective matter either, and in particular in Hero's game against DRG, he have DRG a win - in a game which *actually mattered* to the outcome of the tournament, whereas the game between Naniwa and Nestea did not. I do not see any action taken again Hero for this? And I am a fan of Hero, but I am merely pointing out the double standards which exists in the GSL with Korean and non-Korean players. I cannot understand why you think the foreign audience doesn't see this - do you take us all for fools? My question is, where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to draw it arbitrarily so? And at what stage can a player be kicked out for cheesing? Why are certain types of cheese ok (like 6pool) whereas others not? Naniwai could have just as easily 4gated or cannon rushed and lost - all that would have achieved is wasting more of everyone's time. I would argue that in not wasting said time that Naniwai actually has far more respect for viewers and fans than you do, so I find your decision very arbitrary and reckless. Why for instance was BitbybitPrime not punished using this very same rule? Naniwa works extremely hard, practising more than the vast majority of players (Korean and non-Korean alike) to play the best games for his fans. This is more than I can say about what BitbyBit did - and the same goes for many other players over time. To then be punished and be insulted like so, is extremely unjustifiable. You clearly do not understand that people are all different, and some get quite emotional in some situations. Next is the issue of MLG seeds into GSL code S. You have now broken your partnership with MLG, as you have failed to keep your end of the bargain. This is a further slap in the face to foreigners and foreign tournaments. Even if Naniwa's seed eventually gets replaced by another foreigner, that doesn't change the fact that you are illegitimising a foreign tournament by taking away it's right to seed a player into GSL Code S, and instead stealing that decision for yourselves. It has also come to my attention that you have deleted comments you have made about revoking Naniwai's code S seed claiming he never had it. This does not exactly add to your credibility, as it is not exactly a secret that he did. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-programThe rules are stated very clearly, he earned his code S spot in Providence. I am unsure why you would try to claim he did not - again, do you take foreigners for complete idiots? You must understand, at this stage this is far beyond the Naniwa vs Nestea game. Now the bias of GomTV against foreigners as well as the behaviour of the tournament organisers to do whatever they want regardless of the rules is put in question. Furthermore on that note, you have taken a complete lack of responsibility for designing a tournament system which allows for meaningless games that don't have any result on any outcome. In conclusion, I am very displeased with this. I have supported the GSL and payed for virtually every season and event single since I first learned about it in 2010. Even these days, I end up defending GomTV from all the bad comments about the stream quality being far worse than MLG and Dreamhack - even on "HD". I really love Tastosis and always tune in to watch them cast regardless of who's playing. But this is really the last straw for me, I cannot possibly support you any longer as it seems to me that you have lost your integrity. Unless you plan to fully reverse your decision to take Naniwai's code S spot, or hand out any meaningful punishment in general (perhaps you can make it as meaningless as the game for which he was punished?), I request a full refund. If this refund is not given, or this email disregarded, I will take it up with PayPal. As the year 2012 has not even started yet, I am sure there is zero argument against getting a full refund. Lastly, being a long-term supporter, I appreciate this email be passed to some form of management so that my feelings be conveyed to them - as I believe I have made a lot of good arguments, which really deserve to be thought about by the management of the GSL. Thank You --- I hope you got your facts straight before sending that email Naniwa got his seed from MLG and the factual information presented on the Email seems accurate to me. If you post sentences like that, including a smiley face at the end, you should also spend the time to say why you think what he stated is incorrect, rather than suggesting something and then lacking to provide proof for what you are saying. Check out the latest information making rounds. Apparently there was a misunderstanding regarding the GSL/MLG exchange. Proof? No Code A seeds and no Korean invites to MLG Providence. Basically what happened is that they would've given one of the two Code S seeds of January to Naniwa based on his performance all year long, not because of the exchange program. He then disqualified himself from it by showing bad sportsmanship. They did not take anything away from him, Mr Chae just said something publicly in response to the reactions of the Korean community. It seems to have been translated wrongly and started this shitstorm. What is the difference? He would have got a seed, then got disqualified because of what happened. It's the exact same thing... he is losing a code S spot because of what hapenened. It is not the same thing. It's like if your parents would've bought you a PS3 for christmas but now won't because you didn't behave.
This is a BAD analogy.
Naniwa had a Code S spot just as much as Leenock has a Code S spot. They were both qualified for Code S. You cannot get MORE qualified for Code S than Naniwa was.
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On December 14 2011 22:35 Futarchy wrote:
GOM is likely in breach of a contract with Naniwa by unilaterally terminating the agreement they had for Naniwa to be seeded a Code S spot.
The sole grounds they have to terminate this agreement is the rule that states:
“Warning or disqualification
During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behavior”
However, there are two problems with this rule.
1. This is a tournament rule, which means it applies to the tournament itself. Just because there exists identical rules in separate tournaments does not mean that the breach of a rule in one tournament would entitle the tournament organizer to disqualify the player from a separate tournament in which they have already agreed to accept the player. If Naniwa had been abusive in Code S, then this rule would entitle GOM to disqualify Naniwa from Code S. Since Naniwa's alleged breach of the rule was a breach of Blizzard Cup's rule, then GOM only has the right to disqualify Naniwa from Blizzard Cup.
2. More importantly, there was no breach of this rule at all. Guys, please search "contra proferentem rule" on google. The Contra proferentem rule is a legal doctrine that provides that any ambiguous term in a contract will be construed against the person who introduced it. Hence, any court of law will likely not allow GOM to take such a wide interpretation of this term that would effectively give them the power to unilaterally terminate any contract it has with players.
If we are truly concerned about player's rights, we should support and recognise the legal rights that Naniwa has.
Edit: I don't think the final decision was made regarding Code S seed, so I don't think that applies here.
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Is it just me who doesn't see the reason for this uproar?
Naniwa never had a Code S spot or did he?
EDIT: Well, apparently they'd promised him a spot, well that's unfortunate...
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On December 14 2011 22:35 Futarchy wrote:
GOM is likely in breach of a contract with Naniwa by unilaterally terminating the agreement they had for Naniwa to be seeded a Code S spot.
The sole grounds they have to terminate this agreement is the rule that states:
“Warning or disqualification
During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behavior”
However, there are two problems with this rule.
1. This is a tournament rule, which means it applies to the tournament itself. Just because there exists identical rules in separate tournaments does not mean that the breach of a rule in one tournament would entitle the tournament organizer to disqualify the player from a separate tournament in which they have already agreed to accept the player. If Naniwa had been abusive in Code S, then this rule would entitle GOM to disqualify Naniwa from Code S. Since Naniwa's alleged breach of the rule was a breach of Blizzard Cup's rule, then GOM only has the right to disqualify Naniwa from Blizzard Cup.
2. More importantly, there was no breach of this rule at all. Guys, please search "contra proferentem rule" on google. The Contra proferentem rule is a legal doctrine that provides that any ambiguous term in a contract will be construed against the person who introduced it. Hence, any court of law will likely not allow GOM to take such a wide interpretation of this term that would effectively give them the power to unilaterally terminate any contract it has with players.
If we are truly concerned about player's rights, we should support and recognise the legal rights that Naniwa has.
i agree he should look into this
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EPT
