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On September 24 2011 13:04 ExO_ wrote:
The data in the post is great, however the attitude isn't. This data hardly justifies that P is the easiest race, and your post tries to effectively say P players are just bad when in reality this couldn't be farther from the truth.
Then again, maybe I'm just in denial and all P players are bad right?
...If i say yes do I get warned? 
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I don't think these numbers are significant on anything. I personally play terran at high masters level (1,1k~ points) and has played only terran as main since release (I didn't play beta). Still I get higher APM as zerg, simply because there are much more easy doable mechanics that shows in the apm tab for zerg. For example spreading creap, spreeding lings to check bases, and keeping injects makes the macro game of a zerg much more apm heavy, but I still wouldn't say it's harder. Because as a zerg (going for macro) you don't really need to care about doing your builds perfectly, or different timings, your only concern is those mechanics and scouting your opponent.
I would guess it's because of a similar reason protoss apm is lower than both terran and zerg, there is simply less things to spend apm on at the times where apm isn't really that neccesarry (ie when both players are macroing).
The only thing to use these statistics for, in my opinion, is if you have really limited apm as in handspeed, then chosing protoss might be a good pick. Tho I believe most players aren't really limited because of their handspeed when talking about apm, but limited by their "brain/eye/things to do" speed.
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A lot of people keep claiming that Larva Inject and Creep Spreading "inflate APM".
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Yes, they certainly do and this is the basis for my argument. Sure, I agree that building 30 eggs of zerglings and spam clicking ling or muta micro isn't skillful APM, but can't we agree that having to inject every 40 seconds and having to spread creep tumors is skillful APM?
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On September 24 2011 13:37 Cambam wrote:
A lot of people keep claiming that Larva Inject and Creep Spreading "inflate APM".
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Yes, they certainly do and this is the basis for my argument. Sure, I agree that building 30 eggs of zerglings and spam clicking ling or muta micro isn't skillful APM, but can't we agree that having to inject every 40 seconds and having to spread creep tumors is skillful APM?
That is APM that is accounted and budgeted for in Terran protoss races as well. The only differences between races is that basic terran and zerg units are 1 supply while basic protoss units are 2 supply. This OP basically spots that, then goes on a completely irrelevant tangent.
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On September 24 2011 13:37 Cambam wrote:
A lot of people keep claiming that Larva Inject and Creep Spreading "inflate APM".
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Yes, they certainly do and this is the basis for my argument. Sure, I agree that building 30 eggs of zerglings and spam clicking ling or muta micro isn't skillful APM, but can't we agree that having to inject every 40 seconds and having to spread creep tumors is skillful APM?
No I switched to Zerg because I like their mechanics. It's not that hard actually...
Zerg is about as easy as Protoss for me. Obviously this is subjective though.
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On September 24 2011 13:34 synapse wrote:
I'm pretty sure holding the button down only counts as 1action now... You are wrong. Hold Z, get 300+ APM instantly, just tested in 1.4.
Main reason for Z>T>P is the number of units actually. Z - lots of units, T - middle, P - fewest units, but strong. Select an army and move it around a bit, and (in current patch 1.4) you will get exactly Z>T>P for APM for armies of equal cost, because of the number of units in each army.
APM will always be quite meaningless measure, because in the average actions the most weight comes from moving an army. Which is just one click. You click once, 120 lings move, you get 120 actions. (that's still how it is in 1.4) That overrides by far your macro. So basically people with high APM issue a lot of move commands and attack commands with large armies. They don't really click/press 300+ times in a minute, at all.
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its intresting that most terrans have like 150+ apm in masters... im a high masters terran and I generally have around 120 apm, although that could be because I don't spam in the beggining...
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Funny that the least APM race is also the race with the least current success.
I'm not saying its at all related in any way, I just think its a funny coincidence.
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On September 24 2011 12:55 Cambam wrote:
I thought this was neat because it lends support to the idea that Protoss is the easiest race. I know many people already believe this, but many Protoss players out there are in denial.
Great research until you put that crap out there. Was that really needed? In denial, really? You are being totally disrespectful. Just because you are hiding behind some scientific data does not mean you have to be a jerk about it. Because the replays you used, the APM was lower for the Protoss, does that mean it is the easiest race?
You obviously used a good amount of statistical tools however that does not excuse you from drawing a conclusion out of the air. All that you found is that in some replays the APM is separated by race. What does that mean? I don't know. It might mean what you said, it might not.
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Well, a part of this is that Z and T both have 1 food units, but that alone should only account for 10-15 apm at best. I'm not sure where the rest of the difference comes in.
I don't believe P players are fundamentally slower at top levels, so this must be a mid-masters discrepancy.
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On September 24 2011 13:48 Sadistx wrote:
Well, a part of this is that Z and T both have 1 food units, but that alone should only account for 10-15 apm at best. I'm not sure where the rest of the difference comes in.
I don't believe P players are fundamentally slower at top levels, so this must be a mid-masters discrepancy.
Queue is largely the rest. Training gateway units pulls away from any activity that involves mouse spamming, for a longer period of time anyway.
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I think people are missing a vital point. Spamming with protoss is very very BAD. Protoss require precision in their placements of force fields, storms, blink micro, if your just spamming it all over the place you get wasted force fields/storm, blinking to early in micro wars(verse roaches typically) To me lower APM for protoss is a must
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On September 24 2011 13:37 Cambam wrote:
A lot of people keep claiming that Larva Inject and Creep Spreading "inflate APM".
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Yes, they certainly do and this is the basis for my argument. Sure, I agree that building 30 eggs of zerglings and spam clicking ling or muta micro isn't skillful APM, but can't we agree that having to inject every 40 seconds and having to spread creep tumors is skillful APM?
Well, I'd disagree because when i decide to randomly pick zerg in a team game my apm is at least 30-40 higher (muta harass, injecting/creep etc) than when I 1v1 as protoss. If I can do that when i rarely play zerg at all, I consider that part of 'mindless' apm ie mechanics that I dont have to think about. When I offrace as zerg I dont magically become more skillful.
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On September 24 2011 13:48 Sadistx wrote:
Well, a part of this is that Z and T both have 1 food units, but that alone should only account for 10-15 apm at best. I'm not sure where the rest of the difference comes in.
I don't believe P players are fundamentally slower at top levels, so this must be a mid-masters discrepancy.
Also, if chronoboost only takes 1 action and each creep tumor takes multiple each time that adds up. Spreading overlords around the map adds up.
Terran stutter steps all the time along with have 1 supply units that cost less. Medivacs are a staple of the Terran army which makes drops standard in every game played against P. P has 1 transport unit that gets made in 1/10 games maximun (maybe more after the patch). That unit also cuts into the robo production time for colossus and observers and immortals.
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On September 24 2011 13:36 TeaGreen wrote:
Yup because APM is a non-spammable/skew-able accurate representation of skill and represents %100 of the skill required to play. The game only consists of mechanics and no strategy. Strategy doesn't exist in this RTS game therefore Protoss is the easiest race.
There also aren't any examples of Protosses that have APM above 200. They just simply don't exist.
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Wow whoever wrote the opening post is astonishingly narrow minded. Obviously there's fucking trends in this game but you can't tunnel vision this hard.
Well, at the lowest levels I would say just adding meaningful APM and doing more things faster would probably yield huge increases in overall skill, but the effect becomes smaller as you're more competent.
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On September 24 2011 13:53 zoltanium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 13:37 Cambam wrote:
A lot of people keep claiming that Larva Inject and Creep Spreading "inflate APM".
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Yes, they certainly do and this is the basis for my argument. Sure, I agree that building 30 eggs of zerglings and spam clicking ling or muta micro isn't skillful APM, but can't we agree that having to inject every 40 seconds and having to spread creep tumors is skillful APM? Well, I'd disagree because when i decide to randomly pick zerg in a team game my apm is at least 30-40 higher (muta harass, injecting/creep etc) than when I 1v1 as protoss. If I can do that when i rarely play zerg at all, I consider that part of 'mindless' apm ie mechanics that I dont have to think about. When I offrace as zerg I dont magically become more skillful.
Players of all races really like to cling to that "My race requires more APM" nonsense though.
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If Protoss was indeed the easiest race, why don't all Pros switch to Protoss then?
The way you describe it they should be able to win every matchup then!
You are comparing the amount of apm to actual skill?
I know a few War3-pros who started with apm spamming just because they would copy it from the pros but wouldn't actually make em better alone in the longterm.
Protoss ain't easy at all. I agree with you that Zerg requires a ton of macro-abilities and is indeed hard to manuever correctly but that is balanced due to the fact that you just need to push a couple of buttons to remax your whole army. Protoss on the other hand? Not in the slightest.
Toss lacks of a proper early/harassing unit and usually when I play I always try not to make a mistake early on just due to the fact that in the early game, either Zerg or Terran will always have way more units. Toss can only shiver at that time. But Sentries ftw.
Furthermore you could also say that undead was the easiest race in WC3 just because they warped in buildings aswell. Anyway, every Zerg i know who tried Protoss for a couple of weeks at least, has admited that Toss ain't easy at all (even tough they thought this beforehand), see reasons above.
Cheers
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On September 24 2011 13:13 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 13:08 Ubertron wrote:
Protoss bread and butter units are warped from gates to particular positions. The race doesn't have to constantly re-rally things which I feel inflates the average APM of the other races
Which makes it easier, LOL. Bad argument ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No it doesn't make the race easier, just accounts for the other races having higher APM on average than Toss. Warping in is a separate, DIFFERENT mechanic from the production of other races, and as a minor penalty you have to take your camera off your army while you're warping in (unless of course you have a handy nearby pylon or WP.
Bad argument ¯\_(ツ)_/¯[
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Well I can't say I'm suprised by these results. Zerg requires more apm while protoss requires more..being careful with position I guess. Trying to be constructive here...
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the main difference of APM between protoss and the other races is that protoss doesnt require larva handling or add on swapping. Their actions are less but the actual apm during a fight rises higher in most cases. This is espacially true when you see blink stalker micro. I think the overall doesnt mean much. In a game, my apm can jump from 30 to about 200 in 1 second when i start an engagement as i blink micro (I am still failing a bit at it but learning). So the overall APM i get is lower than what people expects but they get killed nonetheless.
APM has by no mean any relations to how hard a race is to play. People could argue that a 1-1-1 build is much easier to pull than its defense in PvT and then relate it to APM and you would end up in the same place.
Because protoss can devoid themselves to less intensive APM means we often initiate the fight when the "ball" is ready but its by no mean a way to judge b y a simple statistics.
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EPT
