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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 16:24 dbddbddb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:On August 25 2011 16:10 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 25 2011 15:59 samd wrote:
Oh man, the hellion nerf is going to make late game TvP even more of a headache. How are heavy chargelot numbers going to be countered now? Not looking forward to that. IMO its just going to make terran rely on timing pushes even more. late game TvP is near unwinnable for the terran. Are you JOKING!!??? I am sorry that you will have to learn how to micro your army and maybe make ghosts to remove shields from the chargelots. Seriously why dont you actually increase your skill level before claiming facing a certain army composition is unwinnable. it is very rare that pro terrans make hellions to deal with charge lots unless they go mech ob. They primarily kite and split their marines and marauders to deal with the lots, I guess you will have to do the same. I am sorry if this might overwhelm your skill level LOL. Sorry but as a protoss player you are in no position to tell terran players to learn how to micro, all your best units are basically a-move units... zealots, archons and collossus require little to no micro at all, whereas terran bio needs to constantly kite and split. And it doesn't change the fact that terran mech will be useless again vs. protoss, the only thing that made it viable was that bf hellions are so good against zealots, every other terran mech unit gets eaten alive. and guess what, all the protoss has to do with zealots is a move... lrn to micro ye? the reason why terran needs to constantly split and kite is because they are easy to micro. MM is basically the same unit in a large fight so you dont need to worry about positioning them, thats why they are able to be split and kite so easily. toss units have very different movement speeds and has positioning required, zealots up front, archons just behind with sentries to FF, stalkers mid, colossus back. toss doesnt have the luxury to kite all day long (unless mass stalker/colossus) which is actaully an easy skill as its just repeated move and attack commands.
so spliting your units pre-fight and then a-moving is more micro than constantly kiting your units for a good 30 seconds? interesting.
what exactly is so hard about protoss micro? whenever I play protoss I a cast forcefields, then a move and go back to my base and macro, whilst the terran kites like crazy for a good 30 seconds. and im a master T and high diamond P player
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I like a lot of changes. Blue flame made things too swingy. The fungal nerf isn't as big as I expected. Immortal range and +5 seconds on Terran everything really helps with 1-1-1 (though the Terran nerf seems a little risky).
I still don't like when things that aren't being used a lot get patched so drastically. Some units aren't as easy to figure out as others. In the past few years several 'useless' BW units snuck into the metagame naturally through innovation. It's not as cool to see some units when all units are overtly viable.
People could have made warp prisms fit into their play without a huge buff. People would have started using ravens more without a buff. Ultra tech switching was being employed before a gigantic buff. You don't need to be told to use these things to make them used. A minor buff to these things would be ok. A massive buff is just like a demand to use them.
Generally some good changes, but the philosophy is misguided. Fix problems, don't try to make everything equally viable.
On August 25 2011 15:59 DARKHYDRA wrote:
Pretty excited about cheaper overseers and faster build time on ultras but no hydra love?
I think it's clear that they're going to buff them in HOTS. Maybe a speed upgrade. They will be narrow until then.
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On August 25 2011 16:26 Confuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 16:23 WinteRR wrote:
Lol at thinking bio remotely counters zealots in the context of late game tvp then continuing to call that person a 'noob'. That really validates your opinion doesn't it?
The fact that one good counter to chargelots will become inefficient is a legitimate concern. One of my firsts thoughts, Archon/Chargelot is just so incredibly hard to deal with lategame for terran. BFH used to give me some relief versus the chargelots but now I don't even know
Archon chargelot is a midgame solution to bio. Once the bioball gets too big Archon Chargelot hardly makes a dent in the terran army, assuming near equal upgrades.
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ultralisk buildtime way too little
as if lategame Z wasnt strong enough
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Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
1/1/1 isn't that good anymore!
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On August 25 2011 16:12 VTPerfect wrote:
Interesting to note the fungal change doesnt effect PvZ at all beacuse fungal still 3 shots sentries and 4 shots stalkers.
It doesn't necessarily but zergs will have to time the fungals out better since they do less overkill. As a terran this is really good even if my marines still die to 2 fungals.Also the damage reduction is still nice ^^.
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what do u think infestor nerf involved? i don't think 6 damage less and +10% vs armored is a big big change but i don't know exaclty..
Also, ultralisk time contruction is nice!
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On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote:
Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
Critically, this makes seeker missiles faster than vikings (which have a movement speed of 2.75).
Expect a lot more ravens to be used in TvT.
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MUAHAHAHA
Cheap OVERSEERS!!!!!! I HAVE FALLEN IN LOVE! I can scout my opponent's base easier. Infestor change was good too. I don't mind it cuz my fungle micro sucked, haha, better for me.
but why is ravens still such an expensive detection unit?
BUT the real question is....
WHY DO CARRIERS STILL SUCK!!!!
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Someone has to explain to me why contaminate energy cost was increased so much, now it will be used even less. I don't get the barrack build time increase neither.
Immortal range won't change much ZvP since roaches have to get up close anyways, but mech is even worse in TvP now.
As for fungle, the fact that it stuns is the problem, not the damage, they should try making it slow instead.
Mothership looks fun, seeker missile is a bit more scary now, even though in ZvT all units are faster then it.
Blue flame : **** yeah thank god
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great, now zealots+immos counter stalker+colossi
every new patch they mess up pvp a bit more
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Finally a damned drone buff.
Finally cheeses might be slightly less easy to carry out because drones might actually be able to KILL units.
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Don't really understand the seeker missile "buff". It's still kind of a shit ability, the raven is way too expensive and slow and takes too long to build, it doesn't work in PvT due to feedback and in ZvT it usually gets outrun either way. Just the fact that you have to upgrade this shit ability when even infestors gets fungal without any research
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On August 25 2011 16:33 Tribuno wrote:
what do u think infestor nerf involved? i don't think 6 damage less and +10% vs armored is a big big change but i don't know exaclty..
Also, ultralisk time contruction is nice!
Basically:
Perfect theorycrafting world: Infestor nerf didn't change anything beyond 120+ hp units.
Real world: it is still a damage nerf, so less overkill on units, which means that fungal casting must be perfect in order to achieve desired results.
On August 25 2011 16:34 NeonFox wrote:
Someone has to explain to me why contaminate energy cost was increased so much, now it will be used even less. I don't get the barrack build time increase neither.
Immortal range won't change much ZvP since roaches have to get up close anyways, but mech is even worse in TvP now.
As for fungle, the fact th
double overseers for the same gas cost = more energy for contaminate = risk of perma contaminate early on, which is detrimental, especially to zerg. Increasing the energy alleviates this.
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On August 25 2011 16:33 TheLight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote:
Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
Critically, this makes seeker missiles faster than vikings (which have a movement speed of 2.75). Expect a lot more ravens to be used in TvT.
Yep. Raven Hellion BC sounds not so bad, as it counters everything the Terran has. They can't get vikings for PDD, hellions kill marine, the BC's kill everything that's not viking.
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About chargelots - wouldn't be smart to include 4-5 banshees (preferably cloaked) in late-game army? I mean, everyone uses them only as harass option early game right? Its actually great counter to Zealot/Immortal - main counter to mech TvP.
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On August 25 2011 16:27 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:On August 25 2011 16:10 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On August 25 2011 15:59 samd wrote:
Oh man, the hellion nerf is going to make late game TvP even more of a headache. How are heavy chargelot numbers going to be countered now? Not looking forward to that. IMO its just going to make terran rely on timing pushes even more. late game TvP is near unwinnable for the terran. Are you JOKING!!??? I am sorry that you will have to learn how to micro your army and maybe make ghosts to remove shields from the chargelots. Seriously why dont you actually increase your skill level before claiming facing a certain army composition is unwinnable. it is very rare that pro terrans make hellions to deal with charge lots unless they go mech ob. They primarily kite and split their marines and marauders to deal with the lots, I guess you will have to do the same. I am sorry if this might overwhelm your skill level LOL. Sorry but as a protoss player you are in no position to tell terran players to learn how to micro, all your best units are basically a-move units... zealots, archons and collossus require little to no micro at all, whereas terran bio needs to constantly kite and split. And it doesn't change the fact that terran mech will be useless again vs. protoss, the only thing that made it viable was that bf hellions are so good against zealots, every other terran mech unit gets eaten alive. and guess what, all the protoss has to do with zealots is a move... lrn to micro ye? When did i ever say i was a protoss player? I play terran and zerg for the most part, and when players complain that a certain matchup is unwinnable as a terran i just laugh becuase terran is the most versatile race in the game and can counter every composition in the game with proper micro.
Never did I say anything is unwinnable, all I said is that terran mech is going to be usless again because of the hellion nerf, you know there's not much to micro with tanks, thors and hellions. You have to make sure your hellions are in front of your siege tanks and that your tanks are sieged in time, then you focus fire the protoss units and thats about it, but thats not gonna help bc. zealots are going to destroy it with the blue flame nerf, its already a really close fight T mech vs. P zealot + X unit, with the hellion nerf its going to be almost impossible to go mech vs. P.
On August 25 2011 16:35 Everlong wrote:
About chargelots - wouldn't be smart to include 4-5 banshees (preferably cloaked) in late-game army? I mean, everyone uses them only as harass option early game right? Its actually great counter to Zealot/Immortal - main counter to mech TvP.
That doesnt really work unfortunately, banshees just cant kill zealots quickly enough, if there is a huge ball of let's say zealot, immortal archon high templar (one of the composition I often have to play against as a mech player) banshees just dont have high enough DPS to really make a difference and can get feedbacked aswell. also the upgrades lategame make them even worse, its very unlikely you are going to have decent upgrades on them when going mech.
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Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
I really dont get it - this ability is rarely used and now blizzard seems to want this ability to never be used again, maybe they want to remove it with a future patch
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
At last! As the only thing that seems to have mattered last time was that the icon wasnt blue...
i like the immortal and warp prism changes though
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On August 25 2011 16:29 robih wrote:
ultralisk buildtime way too little
as if lategame Z wasnt strong enough
Well... It wasn't exactly strong because of the Ultra tho  .
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EPT
