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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 13:23 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible. You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute
yeah, and toss has the worst units to drop. no BFH, 8 lings, marine marauder, hell even 4 roaches with burrow is probably more cost effective than anything toss can drop..
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Also, I have a feeling that seeker missiles are going to become the new scourge of SC2 >.>
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Terran always bring 3-4 helions to drop opponent's mineral, so still able to one shot workers i guess if when all BFH shoot together at the same line.
However in a bigger scale battle between helion+tank vs marine tank, the nerf will be very significant. This is unacceptable to me, we are just starting to embrace a more interesting and tactical mech style, if the nerf is proved to be too much people might be switching back to marine again.
The speed of Hunter Seeker missle is a concern, however the BIGGEST concern to terran players like me is the expensive Raven and research cost. Its just too gas heavy to be a major invest.
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I don't know why people are so upset about the 65 seconds rax. P's Gateway is also 65 seconds and needs to be in range of a pylon. Why would you want a free 5 seconds advantage anyway?
Disliking the blink nerf, PvP was getting quite enjoyable to watch, with robo vs twilight. Warpprism buff might be overdone, but Immortal buff is quite awesome.
I think it's maybe too early for a BFH hellion nerf (maybe too early for a patch that big too, a slight 1-1-1 nerf would have sufficed, albeit hard to decide which), and the infestor nerf is not that meaningful.
DTs are now quite useless against zerg (even more), overseer is basically free at this point.
Overall I don't think a patch was necessary except for the 1-1-1. Maybe immortals will help, we'll see. Keep up the good work, Blizzard.
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people forget that this is just a PTR...not an official one. Way too much QQ for nothing.
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This is an great patch. Well done blizzard listening to the community. Thank you Team Liquid for hosting the thread on 1-1-1 struggles and thank you IMMVP for speaking out about protoss having a hard time vs terran even though your a terran player. He now has a protoss fan. So damn happy with this. "Certain" terrain builds won't be reasonable to deal with considering the 5 second barracks delay. I love the increased immortal range and what most people failed to read was following:
"Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack"
So not only will rines be slower to build, but GS will protect better against those early tanks and immortals can run in kill some tanks then back off out of range like holding off 1-1-1 like a tank push in BW. Poor destiny with the infestors! LOL
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United States7483 Posts
On August 25 2011 10:55 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:46 Whitewing wrote:On August 25 2011 10:43 MuteZephyr wrote:
Wut?
Blizz didn't even wait for the metagame to catch up with blue flame. QQ wins again. It showed up last MLG, and they're already nerfing it.
I think this is pretty silly. To be fair, the nerf to blue flame hellions isn't that big, they can still clear your mineral line in a matter of seconds, it just takes them another shot to do it. It helps, but it's certainly not the end of blue flame hellions, they're still nasty. Ehh. It's easy to say that before you actually see things pan out. Hellion shots take a long time if you haven't noticed. They actually have the lowest dps of a combat unit in the game. But they do a lot of damage to drones and such because of the way their splash works and their burst damage. Their attack speed is still very slow.
If you consider their splash damage and damage against light, no, they don't have the lowest damage in the game.
Against non-light and no splash, yeah, they do ridiculously lousy damage. On the other hand, they're dirt cheap, and against light with blue flame their damage is insane, due to their splash.
They're also really fast and can be made with reactors.
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Holy cow. Can you say "best overall balance ideas ever"? The only thing I'm not a fan of is the lowering of overseers to 50 gas. Considering that overlords are a mandatory unit and speed is pretty important into the mid-late game, having meaty detectors spawn quickly out of any overlord on the map for only 50 gas cost is pretty damn good compared to T or P's mobile detectors.
Everything else makes a fair bit of sense, even the 40 to 100 shields for WPs. Think about it, the robo facility is necessary for so many important units such as:
observers, as they're the only source of reliable detection
colossi, which almost always need to be in constant production
and immortals, which aren't as high priority in many cases but are still integral in many army compositions and, therefore, still take up time in production.
With so many useful units, the WP takes a backseat in priority and thus isn't made very often if at all. I believe this to be the reason they aren't used much, as opposed to the popular opinion that they're flimsy or expensive, because they're really not.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
On August 25 2011 13:39 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:23 Soulish wrote:On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible. You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute yeah, and toss has the worst units to drop. no BFH, 8 lings, marine marauder, hell even 4 roaches with burrow is probably more cost effective than anything toss can drop..
WOW, have u never been droped with DTs? or with HT with storm on your mineral line? IMHO best mid-late game units to drop by far
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On August 25 2011 13:04 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:51 DizzyDrone wrote:On August 25 2011 12:50 BLinD-RawR wrote:
what?did you notice the speed change?Its now faster than every unit other than hellions and speed lings,(0.0001 fasterthan stalkers and ultras on creep) So instead of running away your entire army, try seperating the targetted unit from the rest of your army. That's how Zerg players dealt with Irradiate in BroodWar. Zergs don't have a unit in the game to deal with ravens. I don't like this buff to HSM. Obviously the Raven is underused but they must realize that Zerg has no answer at all to the Raven. Every single Zerg anti-air can be nullified by PDD (hydra, queen, mutalisk, corruptor, spore crawler). Only thing wrong with this PTR is Raven buff IMO. If they want to implement this buff they should let hydra attack not be affected by PDD IMO.
Technically, the Infestor is the perfect unit to counter the Raven.
Infested Terrans are not affected by PDD, as is Fungal Growth. The somewhat slow movement speed of the Raven makes it especially vulnerable to both spells.
However, I agree that perhaps there are not enough basic Zerg counters to that spell, as Terran gets Marines while Protoss gets Sentries, Void Rays, and Archons.
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The defense of BFH makes no sense to me.
Just because it hasn't been around a long time doesn't mean it wasn't blatantly broken. Considering the cost of a hellion, how fast they are, the AOE aspect of their attacks and how fast you can get the upgrade weighed against the fact they could 2shot workers made them complete game-changer in a way no other unit in the game can compete with considering the above factors.
The nerf was absolutely necessary for game balance. People usually drop 4 hellions anyways so you'll still 1shot lines most of the time anyways.
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I think B-flame hellions's nerf is necessary and reasonable.
B-Hellions still can 2 shots zerglings but 3 shots workers.
If it nerf its blue damage to +7,Hellions can still 2 shots workers.So what have changed?
Although you saw Blue flame nerfed half of its blue damage,so you think it is huge.
But the fact is this change is "OK".
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50607 Posts
On August 25 2011 13:39 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:23 Soulish wrote:On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible. You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute yeah, and toss has the worst units to drop. no BFH, 8 lings, marine marauder, hell even 4 roaches with burrow is probably more cost effective than anything toss can drop..
haha just wait, mid to late game storm drops in the mineral lines will rape your workers,then switch to pylon mode and warp in zealots to take out your expo.
this is exactly what I want to see from protoss though.
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This is a huge patch. Not sure how I feel about this many changes all at once.
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On August 25 2011 13:39 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:23 Soulish wrote:On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible. You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute yeah, and toss has the worst units to drop. no BFH, 8 lings, marine marauder, hell even 4 roaches with burrow is probably more cost effective than anything toss can drop..
wrong wrong wrong...
successfully dropping in a group of chargelots or DT will eliminate the mineral line in no time. Hell even structures are taken down really fast due to their high damage output.
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Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
Lol are they serious?
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On August 25 2011 13:39 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:23 Soulish wrote:On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible. You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute yeah, and toss has the worst units to drop. no BFH, 8 lings, marine marauder, hell even 4 roaches with burrow is probably more cost effective than anything toss can drop..
Besides chargelots and dark/high templars. Both of those units do really well with harassing in small numbers. It's just that every drop you see protoss head straight to the mineral line, passing dozens of good targets along the way.
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Terran gets nerfed every single patch!
The 5 second delay is more significant than most people think. It means 5 more seconds of probe/drone harass, later marine, later economy.
This is what blizzard should have done. It always had a feeling it hurts more to get supply blocked as terran compared to zerg and protoss. This is because the supply depot has a 30sec build time compared to 25sec for overlords and pylons. Some of you are gonna argue you can use the supply depot to wall off and that 5 second is for that extra utility. But pylons and overlords also provide utility (unit warpins / scouting mobility).
So Blizzard: Add 5 sec to barrack, but remove 5 seconds from supply depot build time.
thx
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On August 25 2011 13:23 Soulish wrote:
You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute
Warp prisms are armored. They die to vikings and stalkers in 1-2 volleys. Thats why they called paper planes.
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On August 25 2011 13:38 Cloud9157 wrote:
Stalkers don't need a nerf to damage, Artosis is a moron.
They do 10/14 vs armored, and scale like shit. Honestly, I would 10 times rather have an army of like 10 Immortals, some sentrys, 3 Colossi, and Stalkers thrown in as well, but since getting that many Immortals+Colossi together would require like 3 base and 3 robos, that isn't happening.
I agree.
Imagine defending terran early pushes with weaker stalkers. And its already tricky to deal with mutas as it is, neferfing stalkers would trigger zerg to mass muta all the time.
It would become harder to hold a two base all in from zerg, like Losiras does.
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EPT
