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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 03 2011 00:44 silentblob wrote:
I really hate it when Blizzard play around with fundamental structure build times. Even if it is 5 seconds, everything will feel weird to terran for a while. I understand they want to make 2rax pressure harder to do well, but I think it will not only make two rax pressure 5 seconds late, but every kind of early pressure slightly harder for terran to pull off. I'm talking like 3 in game seconds, but I don't know... it's a very slight reduction to any push timing... it just annoys me. I think protoss and zerg would complain if gateways and spawning pools got a building time increase... not needed. The time has been fine since beta for gods sake.
I agree with this. When they nerfed wg time, all my builds felt off. Still do infact :/
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On September 03 2011 00:49 silentblob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 23:04 sekritzzz wrote:On September 02 2011 22:43 Roynalf wrote:On September 02 2011 22:31 Toadvine wrote:On September 02 2011 22:17 HaXXspetten wrote:On September 02 2011 22:15 Velladin wrote:On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote:
hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo. Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game) How is 2 rax imbalanced? It is very easy to stop As long as you micro your drones properly 2rax isn't really imbalanced imo. Sure, there are some situations where it might be a little too strong, but if so it's a map issue, not a build issue. If Blizzard removed close spawns from 1v1 ladder pool everything would be fine... The thing a lot of people don't like about 2 rax + bunker rushes, is that they're potentially game ending without being especially risky. In a sense, it's the same problem as with BFH. It's not the fact that Hellions 2 shot workers that's a problem, it's how cheap and safe Hellion drops and runbys are - 90% of the time they will at least pay for themselves. Why not do something that can potentially win you the game, and won't really set you back even if it fails? Similarly, a Zerg defending 2 rax very well doesn't put them much ahead, since forcing Lings in the early game is always good for Terran, Bunkers can be cancelled/salvaged, and counterattacks won't work unless the Terran messes up. On the other hand, failing to defend a 2 rax can mean an instant loss. It's just basic risk/reward balance. Potentially game-ending strategies should be appropriately risky - they should involve a commitment. Personally, I think they should just remove Salvage and make Bunkers cheaper. Or give the other races their own ways of defending without commiting to it. This patch needs a Bunker change anyway. I agree with this, currently 2 rax bunker rush is just low risk high reward, instead of it being risky what it should be Its only low risk high reward when a zerg gets a hatch first. Stop economically cheesing your opponent, and no you do not need to have an expansion at 15 to play zerg effectively. What I don't understand is why 2rax pressure is 'low risk/high reward' and a 15 hatch isn't? How is that fair.. the 2rax puts pressure/sometimes gets a hatch if the player is greedy, 15 hatch SHOULD have something to deny it... if not it makes the zerg player defensive, because he just put a hatch up very early! the 2rax is a build that is low risk, when the zerg player has taken a big risk... If 2rax was high risk, no one would do it, and zerg would start 2 base every single game and drone until factory tech could be a threat. THAT IS NOT GOOD GAME DESIGN.
You don't even make sense... 15 Hatch is not low risk/high reward. At best, you could say it's medium risk/medium reward (maybe even high risk/medium reward). If you 15 Hatch and are not pressured, Terran can keep up with you in economy very easily by getting a second OC. Mules are absolutely amazing.
Given the above information, 2 rax should definitely be more of a commitment. Right now, it's absolutely a joke how you can fail a 2 rax (unless you failed after sending all your SCV or something) and still be in the game no problem. Your OC is done in base and you have your wall-in to protect you from any counter agression.
Good game design would necessitate that the 2 rax strategy get nerfed, not into absolute worthlessness, but into being much more of a commitment where if the Zerg stops it, they win (maybe not outright but will be in a strong lead) and if the Terran wins, they win. As it is, if Zerg stops it, we get to play a normal game. If Terran wins, they win the game. How is that good game design or fair in any way?
Edit: Typo.
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On September 03 2011 00:57 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 00:44 silentblob wrote:
I really hate it when Blizzard play around with fundamental structure build times. Even if it is 5 seconds, everything will feel weird to terran for a while. I understand they want to make 2rax pressure harder to do well, but I think it will not only make two rax pressure 5 seconds late, but every kind of early pressure slightly harder for terran to pull off. I'm talking like 3 in game seconds, but I don't know... it's a very slight reduction to any push timing... it just annoys me. I think protoss and zerg would complain if gateways and spawning pools got a building time increase... not needed. The time has been fine since beta for gods sake.
I agree with this. When they nerfed wg time, all my builds felt off. Still do infact :/
Same thing with us when we had stim timing nerfed, but that's not the same as having the barracks time delayed. The 5 second delay will make an awkward timing for everything from the OC, to the factories and starports after it. It affects all terran tech.
Terrans usually have the OC/Rax timing perfectly. With this new patch, there's going to be an awkward 5+ sec idle time for the CC before the rax finishes and it can turn into an OC.
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On September 02 2011 23:14 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 22:17 HaXXspetten wrote:On September 02 2011 22:15 Velladin wrote:On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote:
hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo. Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game) How is 2 rax imbalanced? It is very easy to stop As long as you micro your drones properly 2rax isn't really imbalanced imo. Sure, there are some situations where it might be a little too strong, but if so it's a map issue, not a build issue. If Blizzard removed close spawns from 1v1 ladder pool everything would be fine... Tell that to DRG on Tal'darim on opposite spawn points. He went 15 hatch and still lost his hatch to 11/11 bunker rush. That is the biggest map there is. If it is not risky as hell to do that there I don't see how it is balanced on any map. These bunker rushes have been done for months now and they are still way too effective. Nobody (blizzard, spectators, non-terran players) but terran pro players want to win/watch games like these. If Zerg goes for economic opening so should Terran.
There are many things he could have done to hold that. Hover your overlord over your expo hatch so you can pull drones when you see the bunker go down? Patrol a drone outside the expo hatch and following his scouting SCV to get some early damage on it?
Even losing his hatch, if I'm thinking of the right game, he wasn't even behind. He killed off the bunkers/marines and held map control as he expanded and droned like crazy. Proxy 11/11 is a pretty hefty investment so if you can hold it without much drone losses, you aren't behind.
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On September 03 2011 01:03 DustinQQ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 00:57 -_- wrote:On September 03 2011 00:44 silentblob wrote:
I really hate it when Blizzard play around with fundamental structure build times. Even if it is 5 seconds, everything will feel weird to terran for a while. I understand they want to make 2rax pressure harder to do well, but I think it will not only make two rax pressure 5 seconds late, but every kind of early pressure slightly harder for terran to pull off. I'm talking like 3 in game seconds, but I don't know... it's a very slight reduction to any push timing... it just annoys me. I think protoss and zerg would complain if gateways and spawning pools got a building time increase... not needed. The time has been fine since beta for gods sake.
I agree with this. When they nerfed wg time, all my builds felt off. Still do infact :/ Same thing with us when we had stim timing nerfed, but that's not the same as having the barracks time delayed. The 5 second delay will make an awkward timing for everything from the OC, to the factories and starports after it. It affects all terran tech. Terrans usually have the OC/Rax timing perfectly. With this new patch, there's going to be an awkward 5+ sec idle time for the CC before the rax finishes and it can turn into an OC.
You're right. Everything will seem awkward for T's for quite a long time.
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On September 03 2011 01:03 DustinQQ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 00:57 -_- wrote:On September 03 2011 00:44 silentblob wrote:
I really hate it when Blizzard play around with fundamental structure build times. Even if it is 5 seconds, everything will feel weird to terran for a while. I understand they want to make 2rax pressure harder to do well, but I think it will not only make two rax pressure 5 seconds late, but every kind of early pressure slightly harder for terran to pull off. I'm talking like 3 in game seconds, but I don't know... it's a very slight reduction to any push timing... it just annoys me. I think protoss and zerg would complain if gateways and spawning pools got a building time increase... not needed. The time has been fine since beta for gods sake.
I agree with this. When they nerfed wg time, all my builds felt off. Still do infact :/ Same thing with us when we had stim timing nerfed, but that's not the same as having the barracks time delayed. The 5 second delay will make an awkward timing for everything from the OC, to the factories and starports after it. It affects all terran tech. Terrans usually have the OC/Rax timing perfectly. With this new patch, there's going to be an awkward 5+ sec idle time for the CC before the rax finishes and it can turn into an OC.
11 rax instead of 12 and your timing is pretty damn close.
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On September 02 2011 23:14 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 22:17 HaXXspetten wrote:On September 02 2011 22:15 Velladin wrote:On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote:
hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo. Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game) How is 2 rax imbalanced? It is very easy to stop As long as you micro your drones properly 2rax isn't really imbalanced imo. Sure, there are some situations where it might be a little too strong, but if so it's a map issue, not a build issue. If Blizzard removed close spawns from 1v1 ladder pool everything would be fine... Tell that to DRG on Tal'darim on opposite spawn points. He went 15 hatch and still lost his hatch to 11/11 bunker rush. That is the biggest map there is. If it is not risky as hell to do that there I don't see how it is balanced on any map. These bunker rushes have been done for months now and they are still way too effective. Nobody (blizzard, spectators, non-terran players) but terran pro players want to win/watch games like these. If Zerg goes for economic opening so should Terran.
If I remember correctly DRG won that game?
I think some people need to go and actually try this as Terran to realize that this is basically the Terran version of an 8 pool.
Give the drone fix, there is really no need to screw with Terran build orders just for this.
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On September 03 2011 01:07 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 23:14 -Archangel- wrote:On September 02 2011 22:17 HaXXspetten wrote:On September 02 2011 22:15 Velladin wrote:On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote:
hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo. Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game) How is 2 rax imbalanced? It is very easy to stop As long as you micro your drones properly 2rax isn't really imbalanced imo. Sure, there are some situations where it might be a little too strong, but if so it's a map issue, not a build issue. If Blizzard removed close spawns from 1v1 ladder pool everything would be fine... Tell that to DRG on Tal'darim on opposite spawn points. He went 15 hatch and still lost his hatch to 11/11 bunker rush. That is the biggest map there is. If it is not risky as hell to do that there I don't see how it is balanced on any map. These bunker rushes have been done for months now and they are still way too effective. Nobody (blizzard, spectators, non-terran players) but terran pro players want to win/watch games like these. If Zerg goes for economic opening so should Terran. If I remember correctly DRG won that game? I think some people need to go and actually try this as Terran to realize that this is basically the Terran version of an 8 pool. Give the drone fix, there is really no need to screw with Terran build orders just for this.
What kind of 8 pool pressures the opponent into sacrificing economy, threatens to end the game immediately, AND gets you an expansion AND keeps you safe from counter aggression?
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On September 03 2011 01:11 arsenic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 01:07 eloist wrote:On September 02 2011 23:14 -Archangel- wrote:On September 02 2011 22:17 HaXXspetten wrote:On September 02 2011 22:15 Velladin wrote:On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote:
hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo. Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game) How is 2 rax imbalanced? It is very easy to stop As long as you micro your drones properly 2rax isn't really imbalanced imo. Sure, there are some situations where it might be a little too strong, but if so it's a map issue, not a build issue. If Blizzard removed close spawns from 1v1 ladder pool everything would be fine... Tell that to DRG on Tal'darim on opposite spawn points. He went 15 hatch and still lost his hatch to 11/11 bunker rush. That is the biggest map there is. If it is not risky as hell to do that there I don't see how it is balanced on any map. These bunker rushes have been done for months now and they are still way too effective. Nobody (blizzard, spectators, non-terran players) but terran pro players want to win/watch games like these. If Zerg goes for economic opening so should Terran. If I remember correctly DRG won that game? I think some people need to go and actually try this as Terran to realize that this is basically the Terran version of an 8 pool. Give the drone fix, there is really no need to screw with Terran build orders just for this. What kind of 8 pool pressures the opponent into sacrificing economy, threatens to end the game immediately, AND gets you an expansion AND keeps you safe from counter aggression?
May I ask if you have used the 11/11 before?
Granted I play at a low lever but I have not lost a game outright to a bunker rush yet since playing Zerg.
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On September 03 2011 01:12 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 01:11 arsenic wrote:On September 03 2011 01:07 eloist wrote:On September 02 2011 23:14 -Archangel- wrote:On September 02 2011 22:17 HaXXspetten wrote:On September 02 2011 22:15 Velladin wrote:On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote:
hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo. Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game) How is 2 rax imbalanced? It is very easy to stop As long as you micro your drones properly 2rax isn't really imbalanced imo. Sure, there are some situations where it might be a little too strong, but if so it's a map issue, not a build issue. If Blizzard removed close spawns from 1v1 ladder pool everything would be fine... Tell that to DRG on Tal'darim on opposite spawn points. He went 15 hatch and still lost his hatch to 11/11 bunker rush. That is the biggest map there is. If it is not risky as hell to do that there I don't see how it is balanced on any map. These bunker rushes have been done for months now and they are still way too effective. Nobody (blizzard, spectators, non-terran players) but terran pro players want to win/watch games like these. If Zerg goes for economic opening so should Terran. If I remember correctly DRG won that game? I think some people need to go and actually try this as Terran to realize that this is basically the Terran version of an 8 pool. Give the drone fix, there is really no need to screw with Terran build orders just for this. What kind of 8 pool pressures the opponent into sacrificing economy, threatens to end the game immediately, AND gets you an expansion AND keeps you safe from counter aggression? May I ask if you have used the 11/11 before? Granted I play at a low lever but I have not lost a game outright to a bunker rush yet since playing Zerg.
Personally, no. But what relevance does that have to the more popular variants of 12/14 rax? It is very, very possible to lose a game outright to 2 rax / bunker aggression if executed well. I mean, you see it in tournaments and I have experienced it as well at the high masters level. What more evidence do you need?
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On September 03 2011 01:06 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 01:03 DustinQQ wrote:On September 03 2011 00:57 -_- wrote:On September 03 2011 00:44 silentblob wrote:
I really hate it when Blizzard play around with fundamental structure build times. Even if it is 5 seconds, everything will feel weird to terran for a while. I understand they want to make 2rax pressure harder to do well, but I think it will not only make two rax pressure 5 seconds late, but every kind of early pressure slightly harder for terran to pull off. I'm talking like 3 in game seconds, but I don't know... it's a very slight reduction to any push timing... it just annoys me. I think protoss and zerg would complain if gateways and spawning pools got a building time increase... not needed. The time has been fine since beta for gods sake.
I agree with this. When they nerfed wg time, all my builds felt off. Still do infact :/ Same thing with us when we had stim timing nerfed, but that's not the same as having the barracks time delayed. The 5 second delay will make an awkward timing for everything from the OC, to the factories and starports after it. It affects all terran tech. Terrans usually have the OC/Rax timing perfectly. With this new patch, there's going to be an awkward 5+ sec idle time for the CC before the rax finishes and it can turn into an OC. 11 rax instead of 12 and your timing is pretty damn close.
Speaking from a zerg point of view I feel like I'm 5 seconds late on every build we do, so glad to know terran will have the same feeling.
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Imo, these nerfs aren't gonna do that much to terrans. Every build may be 5 seconds late, but 5 seconds won't kill a terran since they normally have so much room to breath in general in their matches.
I feel like the BFH nerf wasn't very well thought out either honestly. Imo, even if you removed the blue flame upgrade from the game all together, terrans are just gonna make MORE hellions to guarantee they still slaughter a worker line, and any/all zerglings and banelings on the map.
We're already starting to see this happen infact in the GSL! Terrans just make shit tons of normal hellions and go rape everything.
I honestly feel like the only way to stop this crap from being abused will be to make it so 1) you can only ever make 1 hellion at a time from a factory, 2) hellions cost gas.
There, you now have risk vs reward. Not reward vs bigger reward.
One step closer to terran balance.
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yea, imo making hellions cost 100/25 or something would help
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and maybe make reapers 75/25
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
Making hellions cost gas would be horrible. Hellions are the only way to dump minerals if you're going full mech.
Maybe make them cost 125 minerals or something.
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Just lower their hp.
They are so sturdy, yet incredible fast with high dmg.
If you can dispatch them quickly, they wouldn't be an issue.
I've seen so many games were the opponent was prepared, had the right units at the right place yet still hellions murdered workers.
They should only be effective if you're unprepared. But to lose 10 workers even though you were prepared is just stupid.
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if they are 125mins nothing is changed. The reason for adding gas to hellions is, so you are not able to build that many. Zerg has no mineral dumping unit except the Zergling, Protoss has no one except the Zealot, imho its kinda unfair that Terran has to, so i would like a change from 100/0 to 75/25.
but lets see how the 3 instead of 2shoting workers will work out, maybe its enough to make the hellion a normal unit instead of 'ololo, i will make hellions every single game'
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I'm most interested in how the patch affects PvP. The sight range up the ramp, immortal range buff, and longer blink stalker research should all allow for a more varied match up as 4gate and blink stalker builds will not be quite as effective. I'm sure its been discussed a lot already, but how different do you guys think PvP will be?
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Why do zergs think it is their right to drone up 80 workers on 3 bases uncontested before making any units? wtf is this
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 03 2011 02:01 RabidSeagull wrote:
I'm most interested in how the patch affects PvP. The sight range up the ramp, immortal range buff, and longer blink stalker research should all allow for a more varied match up as 4gate and blink stalker builds will not be quite as effective. I'm sure its been discussed a lot already, but how different do you guys think PvP will be?
Immortals might be enough to beat 1base colossus timings with no range, so i think there might be a few viable immortal-expand builds. Also 1gate fe might be viable on some maps (shakuras and antiga come to mind), depending on your scouting info and how good you are at denying scouting, since none will be straight up 4gating unless you miss a pylon in your base.
The most annoying thing will be the stargate vs robo coinflip in some cases, so i think that the most common build will be immortal-blink.
I think a good option midgame will be immortal-blink-chargelot-archon, since you might be able to expand a bit faster while still getting observers, which would also give you the tools to do a 2base timing vs anyone trying to tech to colossus on many maps.
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EPT
