Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
Except you can bring one other SCV to attack the harassing worker and/or repair the building SCV. The harassing worker needs to be right next to the SCV to do damage.
With the proposed change, you would need to completely surround a worker to stop it killing SCV's freely - it could just scoot around the building, getting in a hit here and there. I'm not even talking about a bunker rush - this is just a normal situation where Terran is building his first depot/barracks and someone scouts him. Even worse, if, theoretically, the Terran managed to get a wall up, the opponent could kill the building SCV from outside the wall.
Another core difference: attacking an SCV could result in being attacked back. Buildings don't attack back, meaning you get free hits, outside of danger. You can just sit outside the wall and kill anything that attempts to complete the barracks or second depot - Terran would have to pull multiple SCV's and get a surround just to stop this.
In short, it's just a stupid change that would completely kill Terran.
On September 03 2011 03:06 Mehukannu wrote: Has anyone of you people who have gotten their BQQ tried to select all your workers -> hit S -> hold F1 key -> spam click split your workers all over the screen? Might work better than line/clump your workers to make hellion roast them even faster.
Your workers are going to be behind your Nexus/CC/Hatch when they are mining. The mineral line is always facing away from the ramp, or at the very least, the Nexus is going to be between your workers and the rest of your base. This is ignoring any other buildings you might have placed close to your minerals.
What this means is that, whatever method of splitting you use, your workers are going to have to form a conga line to funnel between your Nexus/CC/Hatch and the farthest mineral patch in order to escape out in the open. This is the big "kill zone" where Hellions can score a lot of kills.
Whatever method of splitting you use only starts mattering once your probes escape the minerals/Nexus choke, or if you, for some reason, have all your probes idling in the middle of your base.
You can actually go 5 paths with your workers; above your mineral line, above both refineries or past your main base structure on both sides. Then you can resplit the group being chased while your cleanup crew comes. But ye, if you let them drop in your base uncontested you are going to lose at least some workers, nerf or not; blueflame or not. The nerf should make the damage a bit less severe IF you respond properly. Seems like it will mainly effect tvt & tvp battlewise though, marines being 3 shotted after stim now (from 4) and zealots 9 (from 7). Lings will still be 2 shotted by bfh and 3 by normal hellion.
True, if you manually micro your workers away. The proposed Stop->Select Idle worker spam splitting method I replied to usually makes the probes funnel through the gap between Nexus and outside minerals, since that's the shortest route to your ramp or middle of your base.
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
Except you can bring one other SCV to attack the harassing worker and/or repair the building SCV. The harassing worker needs to be right next to the SCV to do damage.
every time a worker stops to shoot the building, it also gets attacked by the scv chasing it. so if you are attacking his worker with your worker, the result is the same with or without my idea
so lets get to the bottom of this:
if the worker is attacking your worker, and you are attacking it, the result is the same
if the worker is attacking your worker, and you are repairing your worker to counter it, the result is actually weaker for you since you need to follow the scv around. i agree this is technically a nerf in that situation. but however normally a terran will never spam repair on his builder to counter harassment, instead he attacks the harassing worker then switches off SCV's and repairs it a bit later.
but i do agree, in that ONE SCENARIO my idea is a nerf.
a change to fix this nerf easily would be to simply give scv's a much larger repair-box when they are constructing a building. but i still dont think this would be needed but you could have it anyway who cares
With the proposed change, you would need to completely surround a worker to stop it killing SCV's freely - it could just scoot around the building, getting in a hit here and there. Even worse, if, theoretically, the Terran managed to get a Wall up, the opponent could kill the building SCV from outside the wall.
Another core difference: attacking an SCV could result in being attacked back. Buildings don't attack back, meaning you get free hits, outside of danger.
It's just a stupid change that would completely kill Terran.
you are suggesting that lategame, a stalker or collossi or hydras or roaches will be near enough to a constructing terran building to attack it without recourse? im sorry but that just flat out wont happen. the terran army will be near the terrans buildings, thus there will be recourse.
and in any situation where the terran army is not near the terran buildings, then with or without my change the result is EXACTLY THE SAME
you have succeeded in providing nothing other than one super small scenario (the repairing) that shows my change is a nerf to a terran playing a macro game. my change does nothing to a terran playing a macro game (in all scenarios where your scv's are in danger, guess what, my change does NOTHING and even without my change your scv's are still in an equal amount of danger because a-moving zerglings still autoattack the scv's that are building a structure)
my change only nerfs bunker rushes but it is a big nerf. but would you rather have that change, or a -5second barracks time which is a heavy nerf to macro games??
I hope I'm still somewhat discussing the 5 second barracks timing change so I don't get banned, but:
What if bunkers temporarily had the hex footprint of a depot while under construction and then filled up to their normal size once construction was completed? (or at 75% completion or 50% or something) (and still needed a full size spot available to start)
Enemy melee units would have to be shunted out of the way when construction finished, which might introduce some oddities.
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
Except you can bring one other SCV to attack the harassing worker and/or repair the building SCV. The harassing worker needs to be right next to the SCV to do damage.
every time a worker stops to shoot the building, it also gets attacked by the scv chasing it. so if you are attacking his worker with your worker, the result is the same with or without my idea
so lets get to the bottom of this:
if the worker is attacking your worker, and you are attacking it, the result is the same
if the worker is attacking your worker, and you are repairing your worker to counter it, the result is actually weaker for you since you need to follow the scv around. i agree this is technically a nerf in that situation. but however normally a terran will never spam repair on his builder to counter harassment, instead he attacks the harassing worker then switches off SCV's and repairs it a bit later.
but i do agree, in that ONE SCENARIO my idea is a nerf.
a change to fix this nerf easily would be to simply give scv's a much larger repair-box when they are constructing a building. but i still dont think this would be needed but you could have it anyway who cares
With the proposed change, you would need to completely surround a worker to stop it killing SCV's freely - it could just scoot around the building, getting in a hit here and there. Even worse, if, theoretically, the Terran managed to get a Wall up, the opponent could kill the building SCV from outside the wall.
Another core difference: attacking an SCV could result in being attacked back. Buildings don't attack back, meaning you get free hits, outside of danger.
It's just a stupid change that would completely kill Terran.
you are suggesting that lategame, a stalker or collossi or hydras or roaches will be near enough to a constructing terran building to attack it without recourse? im sorry but that just flat out wont happen. the terran army will be near the terrans buildings, thus there will be recourse.
and in any situation where the terran army is not near the terran buildings, then with or without my change the result is EXACTLY THE SAME
you have succeeded in providing nothing other than one super small scenario (the repairing) that shows my change is a nerf to a terran playing a macro game. my change does nothing to a terran playing a macro game (in all scenarios where your scv's are in danger, guess what, my change does NOTHING and even without my change your scv's are still in an equal amount of danger because a-moving zerglings still autoattack the scv's that are building a structure)
my change only nerfs bunker rushes but it is a big nerf. but would you rather have that change, or a -5second barracks time which is a heavy nerf to macro games??
Your idea is just bad, sorry.
You're making any type of bunker rushes completely nonviable, not just nerfing them. It also means that early worker harass would be ridiculously strong, I could pull 2 probes supply and you would never ever finish your barracks. I could just sit there regening shields in between hits. It also has a million other awful points, like trying to build a turret against cloaked banshees would be basically impossible, while now they have to choose between workers and killing the turret. There is just no reason to do this. A 5 second barracks nerf time is a really small nerf in macro games, don't know how you can say it's a heavy nerf in the slightest.
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
Except you can bring one other SCV to attack the harassing worker and/or repair the building SCV. The harassing worker needs to be right next to the SCV to do damage.
every time a worker stops to shoot the building, it also gets attacked by the scv chasing it. so if you are attacking his worker with your worker, the result is the same with or without my idea
so lets get to the bottom of this:
if the worker is attacking your worker, and you are attacking it, the result is the same
if the worker is attacking your worker, and you are repairing your worker to counter it, the result is actually weaker for you since you need to follow the scv around. i agree this is technically a nerf in that situation. but however normally a terran will never spam repair on his builder to counter harassment, instead he attacks the harassing worker then switches off SCV's and repairs it a bit later.
but i do agree, in that ONE SCENARIO my idea is a nerf.
a change to fix this nerf easily would be to simply give scv's a much larger repair-box when they are constructing a building. but i still dont think this would be needed but you could have it anyway who cares
With the proposed change, you would need to completely surround a worker to stop it killing SCV's freely - it could just scoot around the building, getting in a hit here and there. Even worse, if, theoretically, the Terran managed to get a Wall up, the opponent could kill the building SCV from outside the wall.
Another core difference: attacking an SCV could result in being attacked back. Buildings don't attack back, meaning you get free hits, outside of danger.
It's just a stupid change that would completely kill Terran.
you are suggesting that lategame, a stalker or collossi or hydras or roaches will be near enough to a constructing terran building to attack it without recourse? im sorry but that just flat out wont happen. the terran army will be near the terrans buildings, thus there will be recourse.
and in any situation where the terran army is not near the terran buildings, then with or without my change the result is EXACTLY THE SAME
you have succeeded in providing nothing other than one super small scenario (the repairing) that shows my change is a nerf to a terran playing a macro game. my change does nothing to a terran playing a macro game (in all scenarios where your scv's are in danger, guess what, my change does NOTHING and even without my change your scv's are still in an equal amount of danger because a-moving zerglings still autoattack the scv's that are building a structure)
my change only nerfs bunker rushes but it is a big nerf. but would you rather have that change, or a -5second barracks time which is a heavy nerf to macro games??
Your idea is just bad, sorry.
You're making any type of bunker rushes completely nonviable, not just nerfing them. It also means that early worker harass would be ridiculously strong, I could pull 2 probes supply and you would never ever finish your barracks. I could just sit there regening shields in between hits. It also has a million other awful points, like trying to build a turret against cloaked banshees would be basically impossible, while now they have to choose between workers and killing the turret. There is just no reason to do this. A 5 second barracks nerf time is a really small nerf in macro games, don't know how you can say it's a heavy nerf in the slightest.
This. You're assuming I'm bringing just one worker. I'm not even talking about mid/lategame, where stalkers or marines or lings are around. I'm talking about before you've ever finished your first barracks (which simply won't ever happen with your proposed change). 100 Minerals and 2 supply worth of probes can and will permanently prevent you from ever building a single Barracks.
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
On September 03 2011 05:16 Entropic wrote: Will there ever be a day that the build time on Carriers is reduced? Even though I'm Terran I want to see carriers! T_T
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
have youe ver played terran> thinka bout team games. if you see a terran you just have everyone pull 1 worker then that terranc ant build anything and gets delayed.
on certain maps to wall off your scvs are far away from where you wall off. if they send 2 workers then, yoru first one will die ( or have to cancel building for a few seconds) before you can reconstruct. this is not a terrible idea but its definately not balanced or well thought out.
if it is a protoss, probe > scv. sooner or later all your scvs will have had to be repaired because of constant shuffling back and forth workers to build, costing you money
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
have youe ver played terran> thinka bout team games. if you see a terran you just have everyone pull 1 worker then that terranc ant build anything and gets delayed.
on certain maps to wall off your scvs are far away from where you wall off. if they send 2 workers then, yoru first one will die ( or have to cancel building for a few seconds) before you can reconstruct. this is not a terrible idea but its definately not balanced or well thought out.
if it is a protoss, probe > scv. sooner or later all your scvs will have had to be repaired because of constant shuffling back and forth workers to build, costing you money
i wont post any more about this. its like trying to explain why 100 pennies is as valuable as 1 dollar.
i dont know any way to make it easier to understand. take EVERYTHING you just wrote and think about it closely. EVERYTHING you just said applies to the current game exactly the same as it applies to my intended idea. theres nothing stopping players from doing that now. its just as strong as it would be with or without my change
seriously, do you think 10 pennies is worth more than 1 dime? its the same concept
the ONLY thing my change does is it makes it so situations where you can block scv's with minerals while building a bunker is nerfed. but for normal building situations in any game its not nerfed. so EVERYTHING you just said doesnt even really matter because the games ALREADY like that...because my idea changes nothing about it. unless your talking about building your barracks between your mineral line ....
if you think my idea nerfs bunker rushes too much, you have a point. and i will agree that you may be right, who am i to say. its for the designers to decide.
but if you think my idea does anything at all to change probe harass situations, or worker harass early game, im just trying to let you know that things are ALREADY exactly the same in the current game as it would be with my idea. so if you think it would be broken, guess what, too bad cuz it already is.
I don't think you have anyone in your corner here, and we're skirting the rule up top again, but just think about think this: 3 workers come to a terran wall off and all they have to do is hit the outside of the building barracks 3 times each, and the scv will be dead.
The terran can really only hope to first catch sight of them as they are coming up the ramp. The terran might have pulled scvs to defend and maybe moved them an inch by the time the scv is already dead. Any idea of defending against this kind of harass by pulling the builder scv off the line is a bad idea because it's slowing down terran tech, again.
I think maybe it's time to give the idea up because of the repercussions that it would cause.
On September 03 2011 09:51 Resistentialism wrote: I don't think you have anyone in your corner here, and we're skirting the rule up top again, but just think about think this: 3 workers come to a terran wall off and all they have to do is hit the outside of the building barracks 3 times each, and the scv will be dead.
The terran can really only hope to first catch sight of them as they are coming up the ramp. The terran might have pulled scvs to defend and maybe moved them an inch by the time the scv is already dead. Any idea of defending against this kind of harass by pulling the builder scv off the line is a bad idea because it's slowing down terran tech, again.
I think maybe it's time to give the idea up because of the repercussions that it would cause.
all im saying is with my idea, your scenario doesnt change and without my idea your scenario doesnt change.
what you said is already possible in the game. its already JUST as bad now as it would be with my idea. what you just described could easily happen in game right now and my idea doesnt change it at all.
thats ALL im saying. im not saying my idea is good, im just saying it doesnt effect the game the way you are saying it does. the truth is what you are talking about is already 100% possible and my idea changes nothing about it.
my idea is a nerf to bunker rushes, what you are saying is already in the game and already happens and already is just as bad as you think it is
ive already "given up" my idea, i honestly dont care. the only reason im posting is because i am educating you and others that your logic is faulty.
its like trying to explain that 5+5 = 10. theres no real point in going further. why do i bother...
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
have youe ver played terran> thinka bout team games. if you see a terran you just have everyone pull 1 worker then that terranc ant build anything and gets delayed.
on certain maps to wall off your scvs are far away from where you wall off. if they send 2 workers then, yoru first one will die ( or have to cancel building for a few seconds) before you can reconstruct. this is not a terrible idea but its definately not balanced or well thought out.
if it is a protoss, probe > scv. sooner or later all your scvs will have had to be repaired because of constant shuffling back and forth workers to build, costing you money
i wont post any more about this. its like trying to explain why 100 pennies is as valuable as 1 dollar.
i dont know any way to make it easier to understand. take EVERYTHING you just wrote and think about it closely. EVERYTHING you just said applies to the current game exactly the same as it applies to my intended idea. theres nothing stopping players from doing that now. its just as strong as it would be with or without my change
seriously, do you think 10 pennies is worth more than 1 dime? its the same concept
the ONLY thing my change does is it makes it so situations where you can block scv's with minerals while building a bunker is nerfed. but for normal building situations in any game its not nerfed. so EVERYTHING you just said doesnt even really matter because the games ALREADY like that...because my idea changes nothing about it. unless your talking about building your barracks between your mineral line ....
if you think my idea nerfs bunker rushes too much, you have a point. and i will agree that you may be right, who am i to say. its for the designers to decide.
but if you think my idea does anything at all to change probe harass situations, or worker harass early game, im just trying to let you know that things are ALREADY exactly the same in the current game as it would be with my idea. so if you think it would be broken, guess what, too bad cuz it already is.
I don't know if your proposed change would break the T early game, but it would change it. Right now, only two workers can hit a building SCV at a time, and they lose a considerable amount of attack time when the SCV moves. This leads to very low dps even if you're committed to killing the structure. With your change, something like 10 drones can attack the SCV at once, and they're constantly damaging it. This would make something like a 4-drone rush very hard to stop on a 2-player map because they could micro around, using mineral walking to alternately snipe your rax/SCV and run away from the four workers chasing them. With new drone AI, coupled with the ability to attack whenever there's an opening on the building (Which is a lot harder to protect the entirety of with 4 SCV's than one builder) a Terran will be hard-pressed to stop early drone aggression.
On September 02 2011 15:31 EricCartman wrote: hope they revert the rax build time. too much of a change imo.
Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
have youe ver played terran> thinka bout team games. if you see a terran you just have everyone pull 1 worker then that terranc ant build anything and gets delayed.
on certain maps to wall off your scvs are far away from where you wall off. if they send 2 workers then, yoru first one will die ( or have to cancel building for a few seconds) before you can reconstruct. this is not a terrible idea but its definately not balanced or well thought out.
if it is a protoss, probe > scv. sooner or later all your scvs will have had to be repaired because of constant shuffling back and forth workers to build, costing you money
i wont post any more about this. its like trying to explain why 100 pennies is as valuable as 1 dollar.
i dont know any way to make it easier to understand. take EVERYTHING you just wrote and think about it closely. EVERYTHING you just said applies to the current game exactly the same as it applies to my intended idea. theres nothing stopping players from doing that now. its just as strong as it would be with or without my change
seriously, do you think 10 pennies is worth more than 1 dime? its the same concept
the ONLY thing my change does is it makes it so situations where you can block scv's with minerals while building a bunker is nerfed. but for normal building situations in any game its not nerfed. so EVERYTHING you just said doesnt even really matter because the games ALREADY like that...because my idea changes nothing about it. unless your talking about building your barracks between your mineral line ....
if you think my idea nerfs bunker rushes too much, you have a point. and i will agree that you may be right, who am i to say. its for the designers to decide.
but if you think my idea does anything at all to change probe harass situations, or worker harass early game, im just trying to let you know that things are ALREADY exactly the same in the current game as it would be with my idea. so if you think it would be broken, guess what, too bad cuz it already is.
I don't know if your proposed change would break the T early game, but it would change it. Right now, only two workers can hit a building SCV at a time, and they lose a considerable amount of attack time when the SCV moves. This leads to very low dps even if you're committed to killing the structure. With your change, something like 10 drones can attack the SCV at once, and they're constantly damaging it. This would make something like a 4-drone rush very hard to stop on a 2-player map because they could micro around, using mineral walking to alternately snipe your rax/SCV and run away from the four workers chasing them. With new drone AI, coupled with the ability to attack whenever there's an opening on the building (Which is a lot harder to protect the entirety of with 4 SCV's than one builder) a Terran will be hard-pressed to stop early drone aggression.
great, finally someone brings up a good point
i never realized that. in teamgames you could have multiple people harassing so this would effect teamgames because thats the only scenario where you would see 4+ workers harassing a base at once
currently only 2-3 workers can attack a building scv so you are right in teamgames in that scenario it would be a nerf
but in 1v1 i still contest my idea doesnt change anything other than heavily nerfing bunker rushes. 1 player sending 4+ workers in 1v1 would have the same effect as it does now cuz its 1 person sacrificing 4 workers very early instead of 4 players each saccing 1 worker. a big difference
From what I understand, the BFH change has no affect on zerglings or drones/probes, all it does is make it so SCVs take one more shot (since SCVs have more hp). Which means BF and non-BF is same against SCVs in shots (3 shots to kill).
And all FG does is 1 more shot to kill vikings and ghosts, 1 more on VR, and 2 more on Colossi... when FG was buffed solely because of the deathball in the first place.
And about the whole medivac/Marine thing, you realize it changes nothing right? 2 FG will still kill marines just the same, and any medivac will prevent a single marine from dying. This was true before the patch, and is true in PTR. Even if FG did 4 dmg per 4 seconds, the medivac could only heal one marine because it's a DOT, so nothing like "well the medivac will heal one marine, and then move on to another!". No, marines still die just as fast, just the same, and a single medivac saves a single marine in FG. No change at all.
On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote: [quote] Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
have youe ver played terran> thinka bout team games. if you see a terran you just have everyone pull 1 worker then that terranc ant build anything and gets delayed.
on certain maps to wall off your scvs are far away from where you wall off. if they send 2 workers then, yoru first one will die ( or have to cancel building for a few seconds) before you can reconstruct. this is not a terrible idea but its definately not balanced or well thought out.
if it is a protoss, probe > scv. sooner or later all your scvs will have had to be repaired because of constant shuffling back and forth workers to build, costing you money
i wont post any more about this. its like trying to explain why 100 pennies is as valuable as 1 dollar.
i dont know any way to make it easier to understand. take EVERYTHING you just wrote and think about it closely. EVERYTHING you just said applies to the current game exactly the same as it applies to my intended idea. theres nothing stopping players from doing that now. its just as strong as it would be with or without my change
seriously, do you think 10 pennies is worth more than 1 dime? its the same concept
the ONLY thing my change does is it makes it so situations where you can block scv's with minerals while building a bunker is nerfed. but for normal building situations in any game its not nerfed. so EVERYTHING you just said doesnt even really matter because the games ALREADY like that...because my idea changes nothing about it. unless your talking about building your barracks between your mineral line ....
if you think my idea nerfs bunker rushes too much, you have a point. and i will agree that you may be right, who am i to say. its for the designers to decide.
but if you think my idea does anything at all to change probe harass situations, or worker harass early game, im just trying to let you know that things are ALREADY exactly the same in the current game as it would be with my idea. so if you think it would be broken, guess what, too bad cuz it already is.
I don't know if your proposed change would break the T early game, but it would change it. Right now, only two workers can hit a building SCV at a time, and they lose a considerable amount of attack time when the SCV moves. This leads to very low dps even if you're committed to killing the structure. With your change, something like 10 drones can attack the SCV at once, and they're constantly damaging it. This would make something like a 4-drone rush very hard to stop on a 2-player map because they could micro around, using mineral walking to alternately snipe your rax/SCV and run away from the four workers chasing them. With new drone AI, coupled with the ability to attack whenever there's an opening on the building (Which is a lot harder to protect the entirety of with 4 SCV's than one builder) a Terran will be hard-pressed to stop early drone aggression.
great, finally someone brings up a good point
i never realized that. in teamgames you could have multiple people harassing so this would effect teamgames because thats the only scenario where you would see 4+ workers harassing a base at once
currently only 2-3 workers can attack a building scv so you are right in teamgames in that scenario it would be a nerf
but in 1v1 i still contest my idea doesnt change anything other than heavily nerfing bunker rushes. 1 player sending 4+ workers in 1v1 would have the same effect as it does now cuz its 1 person sacrificing 4 workers very early instead of 4 players each saccing 1 worker. a big difference
I used to sometimes attack with 4 drones a while back... so did this guy
I personally don't see anything amazingly game breaking about 2 rax early aggression, the zerg is on two bases and can lose a tonne of drones and still be in alright shape, also they should scout the aggression as it is incoming, before the bunkers are planted. If there had to be a change to allow zerg a better response to when bunkers are already being built I would give queens the anti air range against scvs specifically.
On September 03 2011 15:52 Belial88 wrote: So what were the BFH and FG changes for?
From what I understand, the BFH change has no affect on zerglings or drones/probes, all it does is make it so SCVs take one more shot (since SCVs have more hp). Which means BF and non-BF is same against SCVs in shots (3 shots to kill).
And all FG does is 1 more shot to kill vikings and ghosts, 1 more on VR, and 2 more on Colossi... when FG was buffed solely because of the deathball in the first place.
And about the whole medivac/Marine thing, you realize it changes nothing right? 2 FG will still kill marines just the same, and any medivac will prevent a single marine from dying. This was true before the patch, and is true in PTR. Even if FG did 4 dmg per 4 seconds, the medivac could only heal one marine because it's a DOT, so nothing like "well the medivac will heal one marine, and then move on to another!". No, marines still die just as fast, just the same, and a single medivac saves a single marine in FG. No change at all.
Don't only think of battles like "Infestor vs Stallker" In a 1v1 FG vs Stalker the patch might not change anything... but now be realistic:
Lets put up a fight of lings/roaches/corruptors/infestors vs gateway units/colossus: You FG the protoss army and 10 units will be affected - If you nerf FG by 5, the damage being dealt will be reduced by 5 x 10, thats 50 .. and then multiplay 50 x the number you cast FG in this battle... that is a HUGE difference of total damage. And this difference is the damage that the other zerg units (lings/roaches etc.) will have to deal additionally in comparison to pre-patch
On September 02 2011 20:29 Shade_CsT wrote: [quote] Then how would you fix the 2 barracks TvZ imbalance ? It's the only way without nerfing terran too much late game (a change to marine would change the entiere game)
IMO the best way to fix 2rax is the following change
whenever a constructing building takes damage, the scv building it takes the same amount of damage.
do that, and dont nerf barracks time by 5 seconds
this way you dont have to have insane drone micro to stop bunker rushes, terrans have an advantage in being able to build anywhere but they damn sure better build things behind their wall or with troop support guarding the building or else enemies will harass the building to kill the scv.
also, this actually makes it more likely for terrans to have to build their expansion in their base and fly it out instead of being greedy and making it at the nat sometimes
This change would make it impossible for Terrans to build a wall in the first place. Honestly, an SCV starts building a barracks at the wall, probe comes in, zaps it a few times, and the SCV building it is now dead. Bring a new SCV, probe zaps the building, SCV dead. Repeat until Terran has no SCV's left.
At least think this through a bit before you post.
hows that different from the current game? besides putting bunkers between minerals which is what the hard2stop bunker rushes do, workers can easily kill the building scv already
i seriously think my change does nothing that the current game doesnt already do
if you are building something out in the open, a zergling on a-move will automatically target the scv anyway so your scv dies no matter what
if you are building stuff inside your base and a zergling drop happens, zerglings on a-move will auto target scv's building the buildings first. so your building scv's die no matter what.
same thing applies to mutalisks in your base. they auto-target the building scv's already
my change doesnt change early game or lategame for terrans that are playing for a long macro game, it only nerfs bunker rushes
it doesnt change early game either because normally your scv that is making the barracks is always in a location where it can be attacked anyway. i guess if you make a FAST 2depot/1rax wall that makes the 2nd depot before the rax is done then thats the only scenario where this change will cause a protected scv to become unprotected
You are saying it is no different from current game. So why make the change at all if it makes no difference?
In seriousness though, killing SCVs constructing buildings should require at least some micro with a melee unit (worker, zealot, zergling) which it does now. It would make it too easy if you could just target the building and very confusing as well (especially for new players) since it doesn't make physical sense (I know there are things that don't make sense already but why add to it?).
it makes no difference in his worker/probe harass scenarios he brought up
if a toss brings 1 probe, pull 2 scv have 1 scv deal with it while another is there to replace. if it
if a toss brings 2 probes, pull 3 scv have 2 scv deal with it while another is there to replace
if a toss brings 3 probes, pull 4 scvs have 3 deal with it while another can replace
currently, if a toss brings 2 probes to harass it will have the SAME EFFECT right now as with my idea, because my idea changes nothing in regards to the early game power of probe harass
im not saying my change is super good im just bringing up the point that they think it would make a difference in probe harass scenarios.
these guys seem to think it would "break the game" because of the probe harass scenarios they suggest.
well guess what then, i guess the game is already broken because my idea doesnt even change your probe harass scenarios at all. right now the game is just as broken as you think it would be... 2 probes would be just as strong with or without my idea
when i said it makes no difference, i only meant in his worker harass scenarios
my change DOES nerf bunker rushes into almost nothing. it pretty much makes bunkers only useful if you have a frontal army to protect bunkers as they build to form a contain.
but other than that, my change idea truly has ZERO EFFECT on early game worker harass scenarios (other than a very rare scenario where you make 2 depots before the rax is done. in that scenario you could wall a scv and protect it but with my idea u cant. any other scenario you can bring up to show what wrong with my idea is ALREADY 100% POSSIBLE in the current game. if a protoss brings 2 probes to harass, he actually has to stop to attack so if you pull 1 scv to deal with each probe then even if he tries to stutter step he will still take the damage. and currently probes can run around a small area near the building scv and attack it anyway while being immune during the small run around so in both scenarios the probes harass is just as strong
have youe ver played terran> thinka bout team games. if you see a terran you just have everyone pull 1 worker then that terranc ant build anything and gets delayed.
on certain maps to wall off your scvs are far away from where you wall off. if they send 2 workers then, yoru first one will die ( or have to cancel building for a few seconds) before you can reconstruct. this is not a terrible idea but its definately not balanced or well thought out.
if it is a protoss, probe > scv. sooner or later all your scvs will have had to be repaired because of constant shuffling back and forth workers to build, costing you money
i wont post any more about this. its like trying to explain why 100 pennies is as valuable as 1 dollar.
i dont know any way to make it easier to understand. take EVERYTHING you just wrote and think about it closely. EVERYTHING you just said applies to the current game exactly the same as it applies to my intended idea. theres nothing stopping players from doing that now. its just as strong as it would be with or without my change
seriously, do you think 10 pennies is worth more than 1 dime? its the same concept
the ONLY thing my change does is it makes it so situations where you can block scv's with minerals while building a bunker is nerfed. but for normal building situations in any game its not nerfed. so EVERYTHING you just said doesnt even really matter because the games ALREADY like that...because my idea changes nothing about it. unless your talking about building your barracks between your mineral line ....
if you think my idea nerfs bunker rushes too much, you have a point. and i will agree that you may be right, who am i to say. its for the designers to decide.
but if you think my idea does anything at all to change probe harass situations, or worker harass early game, im just trying to let you know that things are ALREADY exactly the same in the current game as it would be with my idea. so if you think it would be broken, guess what, too bad cuz it already is.
I don't know if your proposed change would break the T early game, but it would change it. Right now, only two workers can hit a building SCV at a time, and they lose a considerable amount of attack time when the SCV moves. This leads to very low dps even if you're committed to killing the structure. With your change, something like 10 drones can attack the SCV at once, and they're constantly damaging it. This would make something like a 4-drone rush very hard to stop on a 2-player map because they could micro around, using mineral walking to alternately snipe your rax/SCV and run away from the four workers chasing them. With new drone AI, coupled with the ability to attack whenever there's an opening on the building (Which is a lot harder to protect the entirety of with 4 SCV's than one builder) a Terran will be hard-pressed to stop early drone aggression.
great, finally someone brings up a good point
i never realized that. in teamgames you could have multiple people harassing so this would effect teamgames because thats the only scenario where you would see 4+ workers harassing a base at once
currently only 2-3 workers can attack a building scv so you are right in teamgames in that scenario it would be a nerf
but in 1v1 i still contest my idea doesnt change anything other than heavily nerfing bunker rushes. 1 player sending 4+ workers in 1v1 would have the same effect as it does now cuz its 1 person sacrificing 4 workers very early instead of 4 players each saccing 1 worker. a big difference
That is the exact same thing everyone has been telling you for the past few posts. But whatever, apparently you were "educating us" so I guess that didn't count.
EPT
