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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 05:04 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:54 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 04:48 0c3LoT wrote:
I expect to see Ultras getting nerfed in the future if their buff actually goes through. On August 26 2011 04:49 Yaotzin wrote:Ultras still suck though, you just get a sucky unit earlier  Ultras aren't bad units. The problem is that lowish level zerg players and above treat the Ultra/Crackling combo as an a-move army. This is simply not true and not usable. The Ultralisk is the backbone of an army, designed to rip through clusters of armored units and soak up fucktons of damage. It does REALLY well against stalkers, as stalkers are relatively slow and can't kite Ultras (afaik). The best way to use Ultra ling is to have the brunt of your army a-move and pull the zerglings in from behind and flank, cutting off the escape routes of the opposing army and simultaneously crushing them. Having ultras step over zerglings would just be too powerful. To clarify, Ultras aren't UP at all. Zergs are just using them at the wrong times and in the wrong way. They are awful units, its the second most expensive unit ingame takes a long time to tech to em and by the time you get em every race can easily and QUICKLY counter em with lower tier units. So when you get ultras you must finish the game, or they will remain useless.
There is a difference between bad and highly situational. This is the sticking point for the entire ultra debate and the reason for the buff I think. Before this the zerg would see the opposing army and determine ultras would be good but be countered before ultras could make a serious presence. With this huge upgrade to their build time they can hopefully be more reactive to those narrow opportunities.
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3 shots to killed lings with BFH is REALLY stupid. Hellions were already a big investment in the early game, and now it's even harder to do any damage to Zerg.
I will say, Hellions were definitely a little OP in TvT vs Marines, so bio-mech is buffed in that match-up, so that's fine, but this makes mech NOT viable in any of the other match-ups now, ESPECIALLY TvP. Terran never did have an answer to mass-chargelot with mech, and now the situation's even worse.
Also, Blink cooldown timer should not only be increased but also the build time, or maybe Blink distance nerfed or something so they can't do damage and blink away as easily.
Oh, and barracks build time is NOT NEEDED AT ALL. 2 rax too strong in TvZ? It never works if the Zerg pulls enough drones and micros half-decently, and with the drone attack buffed as well, this is very stupid. proxy 2 gates are too strong now as well, and everything of Terran is delayed slightly, even mech openings are delayed by this.
Overall a decent patch, but this game is still far from balanced.
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Yep Terran will still need more nerfs, mark my words! They're such an unexplored race still because they've never struggled 
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Ok, so now it still takes 2 blue flame hellions to 1shot a zerglings.
And it will take 3 hellions instead of 2 hellions to 1shot workers. Who does Hellion drops with less than 3 hellions at a time?
um... every drop in tvt? watch the team league game from today (MMA vs SuperNova on Belshir Beach).
THE PROBLEM IS THIS NERF DESTROYS VIABLE MECH OPENINGS IN TvT.
Let's break it down by the numbers so you can see:
new hellion damage = 8 (base) + 6 (if light) + 5 (w/ upgrade ONLY v light) = 19 dmg vs light
so.. times 3 we get 57 dmg.
marine health = 45hp + (10hp with combat shield upgrade) = 55hp
NOTE: upgrade for combat shield and blue flame take the same amount of time THEREFORE combat shield should finish before blue flame given addition time for factory building.
what this means is that if a person RUSHED to blue flame to counter the marines he was seeing (lets say two rax opening). by the time he got blue flame he would no longer have an advantage because marines take less time to produce, cost less and apparently cannot be killed unless you have 3 hellions.
NOW, most tvt hellion drop builds produce 3 hellions at the time of drop, which will make sense for killing scvs with the new patch, however, against early game bio in a non harrass situation you will downright lose vs marines?
ultimately this breaks early game tvt and makes hellions (with 150/150 upgrade) worthless vs unit they are supposed to naturally counter with 100/100 upgrade. Someone explain how if makes sense that a hellion SHOULD 3-SHOT a stinkin' marine. Its blue fire against non armored unit...
Hey blizzard, why dont you make the upgrade cost less if you nerf it? that way i dont waste my time creating a unit that is supposed to counter early game pressure/light units... but doesn't.
I wont even go into if the marine has +1 to armor, then it must be 4-SHOT???
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On August 26 2011 05:19 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:16 s4life wrote:On August 26 2011 05:09 B0nes wrote:
What I'm more concerned about is the buff/fix to sentry guardian shield against splash damage and the + 1 range on immortals now!
They are going to rip through a tank line like no ones business. Blizz does not want mech T v P for some reason.. Why didn't any of the tip top protoss players realize before, this is obviously the reason 1/1/1 is so good! THE SENTRY GUARDIAN SHIELDS DONT WORK AGAINST SIEGE SPLASH. WTF. That's 2 damage less, siege tank damage reduced from 35 to 33. If your opponent has, like, 2 siege tanks that's a 4 damage that you just straight dodged.
It didn't work on the immortal. That's the biggest one by far. Leading with immortals to eat the first volley was good, but now it's even better :D
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On August 26 2011 05:25 Ewic wrote:
3 shots to killed lings with BFH is REALLY stupid. Hellions were already a big investment in the early game, and now it's even harder to do any damage to Zerg.
I will say, Hellions were definitely a little OP in TvT vs Marines, so bio-mech is buffed in that match-up, so that's fine, but this makes mech NOT viable in any of the other match-ups now, ESPECIALLY TvP. Terran never did have an answer to mass-chargelot with mech, and now the situation's even worse.
Also, Blink cooldown timer should not only be increased but also the build time, or maybe Blink distance nerfed or something so they can't do damage and blink away as easily.
Oh, and barracks build time is NOT NEEDED AT ALL. 2 rax too strong in TvZ? It never works if the Zerg pulls enough drones and micros half-decently, and with the drone attack buffed as well, this is very stupid. proxy 2 gates are too strong now as well, and everything of Terran is delayed slightly, even mech openings are delayed by this.
Overall a decent patch, but this game is still far from balanced.
Reactor hellion expand gives you a safe expo and map control. If you kill one drone you're in a good position as long as you lose nothing. Mech was never that viable in TvP and Goody is the only person who ever really did it in the first place, and he'll continue to do it I'm sure. Blink is completely fine, I have no idea why a terran would ever complain about stalkers because they're little more than expensive meat shields and anti-air in the midgame. 2rax works well extremely often even in the higher levels. Proxy 2 gates are not too strong now either, prove it.
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Errrr, I really hope this doesnt make it out of PTR, both T nerfs seem quite pointless.
Making an upgrade useless is not the best way to balance out the game and the 5 second delay to the Barracks build time is really pointless....
I get what, the first Marine 5 ingame seconds later than usual?
How is this relevant on those huge maps?
Not to mention that early bunker rushes off 2 rax are quite defendable and not that hard to scout
I like the Immortal buff though,I'd assume dealing with Roaches should be quite easier now
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On August 26 2011 05:13 Bizarro252 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:29 jambOng wrote:
When will Blizzard make shared replays :[ This... Please?? This would be so nice for non live touneys as well as for just sharing/discussing with friends!!! I WANT THIS ADDED!
DItto this. I recall Blizzard saying that they will/are working on this feature.. like a month or two after SC2 initially came out.
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60=>65 is 5 in game seconds right? so it's more like 2-3 seconds right?
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If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite.
Huh ?
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See the thing that bothers me is protoss was overpowered BEFORE this patch...this eliminayes alot of mech openings for terran....OH Btw protoss players.. how is a rax a factory and a starport imba. this is a QQ patch the whole way
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On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing  and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc..
On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out
Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.)
More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.).
At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers.
But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker.
Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_>
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On August 26 2011 05:30 Blasterion wrote:
60=>65 is 5 in game seconds right? so it's more like 2-3 seconds right?
All build times etc are at normal speed, so 3.5ish on faster.
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On August 26 2011 05:32 Jepsyn wrote:
See the thing that bothers me is protoss was overpowered BEFORE this patch...this eliminayes alot of mech openings for terran....OH Btw protoss players.. how is a rax a factory and a starport imba. this is a QQ patch the whole way
the 2011 stats say otherwise. terran>zerg>toss
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On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ?
No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
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On August 26 2011 05:29 SKYFISH_ wrote:
Making an upgrade useless is not the best way to balance out the game
At least, you still have the upgrade.
As opposed to flux veins and the amulet >_>
On August 26 2011 05:32 Jepsyn wrote:
See the thing that bothers me is protoss was overpowered BEFORE this patch...this eliminayes alot of mech openings for terran....OH Btw protoss players.. how is a rax a factory and a starport imba. this is a QQ patch the whole way
I don't know about you, but being able to hide your tech, while unlocking your whole tech tree, being able to be aggressive and still expending behind that is prettttttttttttttty good.
Not sure about imba, but being able to do something that RTSes generally don't allow you to do (expand, agression, tech all at the same time) is... ugh.
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Oh my god. It's 5 freaking seconds, you're not going to lose to proxy gates and 6 pools because your barracks is 5 seconds later. Your not going to start losing because your barracks is 5 seconds later. All that's going to change is that barracks will take an extra 5 seconds, and your first orbital will take an extra 5 seconds (if you pretend you started building it at the same time and it finished 5 seconds later). Yes, your first mule 30 mineral trip will be 5 seconds delayed. It's not going to break the game. Hell, its not even a patch yet, its just on the PTR.
Do I personally think its necessary? Do I see the reason for it? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
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On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
Warp prism?
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On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
Warp Prism 
There was a post on here a while back about some bug where they NPed a WP but it didn't stop powering the Protoss buildings, and it couldn't power Zerg-built Protoss buildings.
Most useless bug fix ever.
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wow ill be at 90% winning PvT now with the immortal range buff. The 2 gates units and a proxy robo was so bad ass vs terran. Check terran beginning to whine about imba like some toss noob whine about 1/1/1
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EPT
