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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 05:47 MandoRelease wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:10 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:03 Unfeared wrote:
Ok, so now it still takes 2 blue flame hellions to 1shot a zerglings.
And it will take 3 hellions instead of 2 hellions to 1shot workers. Who does Hellion drops with less than 3 hellions at a time? the change is bad because all it will do is reduce strategic variance, opting for reactored hellions kills probes/drones in 3 hits regardless so blue flame is now only useful vs combat shield marines, zerglings, and scvs so this change won't mess up tvt too badly but bfh openers aren't very good vs zerg nowif they paired it up with a change to the vehicle weapon upgrade for hellions to +2/lvl this change would make sense, but now it's just stupid That's plain wrong. Not only does it give you map control, but 3 bfh still one-shot 10 drones. The nerf did not touch either mobility nor efficiency versus lings. Something that was too good got nerfed, it doesn't make it bad. It makes it balanced. As far as i'm concerned, bfh is still a real good opener versus zerg. The only difference is that it may not outright give you the win like it used to.
But why would we get blueflame if 3 hellions without it also can one-shot drones? Although 1-shooting 10 drones isn't possible since the hellions can't stand on top of eachother -.-. And they can't therefore get the same angle of attack.
Still think Pre-Igniter upgrade should atleast buff the hellions overall damage like:
+2(+3 to light) or something. As it is now the upgrade just went from Super good to pretty bad.
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On August 26 2011 05:49 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Show nested quote +Heavenly August 26 2011 05:43. Posts 1375 PM Profile Quote #
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On August 26 2011 05:42 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
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Show nested quote +
Huntz August 26 2011 05:37.
Oh my god. It's 5 freaking seconds, you're not going to lose to proxy gates and 6 pools because your barracks is 5 seconds later. Your not going to start losing because your barracks is 5 seconds later.
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lies. just close your eyes and watch the lings stream into your unguarded/unwalled base. you'll be wishing you had that 5 secs back. Furthermore 5 sec in the first 2 minutes is extremely big.
enough said.
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Yeah, it's tough being a gold league 4v4er
yeah im masters, but thanks. clearly you play zerg and are arguable less than 18 years old. mind your manners. that happens all the time in 4v4 regardless of you're rank. you should know (if you knew anything at all) that cheese is prevalent in 2v2 - 4v4, esp 6-10 pools and such...
Masters in 4v4 is pretty impressive. I'm proto\oss and lmao at being less than 18 years old. Learn to sim city around your base properly or sacrifice a bit of early econ to bring your wall up faster if you are that worried, any terran who dies to a 6 or 10 pool has failed hard.
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On August 26 2011 05:51 Telenil wrote:That wouldn't work, you can't warp in an ally's powerfield. The zerg would have the field, not the protoss.
I see.... that wasn't a part of my calculations,
But you can still warp in cancel with Neural, I guess that will be the main purpose of that fix.
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So my Commandcenter will basically idle for 5 secs now before the orbital can be executed ... Before it was a flawless build order timing that made sense, now it becomes something cluncky? Whats the reason?
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On August 26 2011 05:34 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:30 Blasterion wrote:
60=>65 is 5 in game seconds right? so it's more like 2-3 seconds right? All build times etc are at normal speed, so 3.5ish on faster.
LOL Why do people insist on trying to translate it to "real time"? It doesn't matter, everything is measured by game time.
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On August 26 2011 05:56 ysysys wrote:
So my Commandcenter will basically idle for 5 secs now before the orbital can be executed ... Before it was a flawless build order timing that made sense, now it becomes something cluncky? Whats the reason?
Because they felt they need to try nerfing early pushes by 5 seconds per barracks? How is this a question? RIP beautiful fluency of terran openers, game balance appears to be more important than you having a flawless build order with 0 minerals floating. I would recommend switching races but the same thing happens for the other two in the early game.
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On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing  and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_>
This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades.
On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd.
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On August 26 2011 05:56 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:34 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 Blasterion wrote:
60=>65 is 5 in game seconds right? so it's more like 2-3 seconds right? All build times etc are at normal speed, so 3.5ish on faster. LOL Why do people insist on trying to translate it to "real time"? It doesn't matter, everything is measured by game time.
Because 5 seconds seems so much bigger when you don't consider the fact that it's game time. They are grossly exaggerating it.
Yes, it it game time and everything is measured in game time, but not everyone knows/accounts for the fact that a game second is much shorter than a real second.
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On August 26 2011 05:56 ysysys wrote:
So my Commandcenter will basically idle for 5 secs now before the orbital can be executed ... Before it was a flawless build order timing that made sense, now it becomes something cluncky? Whats the reason?
This has been discussed and answered. Take a drink of water is what you do in those 5 seconds, can't be getting dehydrated now.
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On August 26 2011 05:54 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:47 MandoRelease wrote:On August 26 2011 05:10 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:03 Unfeared wrote:
Ok, so now it still takes 2 blue flame hellions to 1shot a zerglings.
And it will take 3 hellions instead of 2 hellions to 1shot workers. Who does Hellion drops with less than 3 hellions at a time? the change is bad because all it will do is reduce strategic variance, opting for reactored hellions kills probes/drones in 3 hits regardless so blue flame is now only useful vs combat shield marines, zerglings, and scvs so this change won't mess up tvt too badly but bfh openers aren't very good vs zerg nowif they paired it up with a change to the vehicle weapon upgrade for hellions to +2/lvl this change would make sense, but now it's just stupid That's plain wrong. Not only does it give you map control, but 3 bfh still one-shot 10 drones. The nerf did not touch either mobility nor efficiency versus lings. Something that was too good got nerfed, it doesn't make it bad. It makes it balanced. As far as i'm concerned, bfh is still a real good opener versus zerg. The only difference is that it may not outright give you the win like it used to. But why would we get blueflame if 3 hellions without it also can one-shot drones? Although 1-shooting 10 drones isn't possible since the hellions can't stand on top of eachother -.-. And they can't therefore get the same angle of attack. Still think Pre-Igniter upgrade should atleast buff the hellions overall damage like: +2(+3 to light) or something. As it is now the upgrade just went from Super good to pretty bad.
Like I said, because the efficiency versus lings wasn't touched. Bfh still 2 shot lings (while standard helions 3-shot lings). That one shot difference assures you map control for the early game. I don't think this should be disregarded that much, since it means actually denying creep and the third of a greedy zerg. So, bfh are still a pretty good investment imo.
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On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd.
Oh. That makes sense.
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On August 26 2011 05:55 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:51 Telenil wrote:If you meant the second part I meant in 2v2 where your ally has WG tech That wouldn't work, you can't warp in an ally's powerfield. The zerg would have the field, not the protoss. I see.... that wasn't a part of my calculations, But you can still warp in cancel with Neural, I guess that will be the main purpose of that fix.
It's alright I got this. I'm not sure but can you neural your allies units? If so simply neural his probe, build yourself a nexus, then a pylon some gateways etc. If not then it is a bit more tricky cause you have to neural one of the opponents probes but that is fine.
Once you have built some warp gates you are set, just neural that warp prism and start warping in your guys. The opponent will probably fall off his chair in shock giving you an opening to win.
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Masters in 4v4 is pretty impressive. I'm proto\oss and lmao at being less than 18 years old. Learn to sim city around your base properly or sacrifice a bit of early econ to bring your wall up faster if you are that worried, any terran who dies to a 6 or 10 pool has failed hard.
lol i figured you weren't that young, i was just kidding. and I def respect that opinion and understand what you mean, however, its easy to say "just sim city your base," its also easy to say "just wall off."
two responses to this:
1 - a random zerg.
2 - in 3v3 and 4v4 you can't scout all the bases when separated b4 they hit with 6 pool.
(ok 3 responses)
3- what if there are two zerg early pooling?
yes you can sack early eco to fin wall in time but what if the wall-off requires 4-5 buildings (ever played on extinction)? if you did you would know what you are saying is full of (explative deleted) LOL. I'm just tyring to make the arguement that this has greater ramifications when you move past 1v1 (not everyone 1v1s mind you).
and im sorry but are you really telling me not to wall as terran when there are possibly multiple zergs? when was the last time you saw MVP, Jinro, NaDa, MKP... or any terran for that matter, not wall against zerg?
my problem:
is that if your worker is finishing up your wall (with depot for instance) the lings can kill him from other side when he moves and then can start attacking the structure which cant be repaired (cause its not finished. and IF you sack your economy ultimately you will delay your OC so if they kill any workers at all you are even doubly f'd. btw if you send another worker to finish building while its being attacked from other side by lings, the worker will move to the exact location the old scv died at, thus creating a circle of death in any attempt to finish your wall. let me tell you - its very frustrating and i've tested this out.
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Patch looks very interesting! Looks like they're trying to eliminate alot of the early game volatility :D Exciting stuff!
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On August 26 2011 06:00 MandoRelease wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:54 Zorgaz wrote:On August 26 2011 05:47 MandoRelease wrote:On August 26 2011 05:10 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:03 Unfeared wrote:
Ok, so now it still takes 2 blue flame hellions to 1shot a zerglings.
And it will take 3 hellions instead of 2 hellions to 1shot workers. Who does Hellion drops with less than 3 hellions at a time? the change is bad because all it will do is reduce strategic variance, opting for reactored hellions kills probes/drones in 3 hits regardless so blue flame is now only useful vs combat shield marines, zerglings, and scvs so this change won't mess up tvt too badly but bfh openers aren't very good vs zerg nowif they paired it up with a change to the vehicle weapon upgrade for hellions to +2/lvl this change would make sense, but now it's just stupid That's plain wrong. Not only does it give you map control, but 3 bfh still one-shot 10 drones. The nerf did not touch either mobility nor efficiency versus lings. Something that was too good got nerfed, it doesn't make it bad. It makes it balanced. As far as i'm concerned, bfh is still a real good opener versus zerg. The only difference is that it may not outright give you the win like it used to. But why would we get blueflame if 3 hellions without it also can one-shot drones? Although 1-shooting 10 drones isn't possible since the hellions can't stand on top of eachother -.-. And they can't therefore get the same angle of attack. Still think Pre-Igniter upgrade should atleast buff the hellions overall damage like: +2(+3 to light) or something. As it is now the upgrade just went from Super good to pretty bad. Like I said, because the efficiency versus lings wasn't touched. Bfh still 2 shot lings (while standard helions 3-shot lings). That one shot difference assures you map control for the early game. I don't think this should be disregarded that much, since it means actually denying creep and the third of a greedy zerg. So, bfh are still a pretty good investment imo. so basically you're going to dodge the fact we corrected you when you said 3 bfh one-shot drones, when 3 red flame hellions also one shot drones
there is literally no reason to open bfh anymore when you can have twice as many hellions to take care of zerglings, and faster medivacs instead
reactored hellions shut down zergling map control just as badly as tech lab hellions, so i don't understand what you're saying at all
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On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd.
Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen.
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One of the best patches yet.
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On August 26 2011 04:25 covote wrote:
Its not losing the 200 minerals thats the scare it losing the 4 HT or DTs inside.
But isn't this also part of the beauty of WP compared to the other races' drop options? By either navigating to a spot where you will be undetected or risking the possibility of giving your opponent a few more seconds to react while you transform and warp in, you don't have to risk any units on the way in. (I suppose Zergs can trade risking extra ovies for units loaded inside) And on the way out... well it's pretty equally situational, just that overlords are faster and beefiest. WP next (with this patch) and same speed as Medivac, unless you invest in upgrade to make WP faster.
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On August 26 2011 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd. Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen.
No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough.
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On August 26 2011 06:17 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd. Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen. No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough.
Are you positive? Regen was instant in SC1, and the snipes do have to be simultaneous to kill an infestor... if it's even a half second off it won't kill the infestor as I've found out from trying many, many times...
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EPT
