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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 06:17 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing  and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd. Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen. No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough.
hmm, that's actually a good question
in brood war zerg regen actually was instant
zerg hp was stored as fractions internally, whereas protoss shields were stored as integers
i don't know if they changed that or not, someone should test it out
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On August 26 2011 06:17 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd. Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen. No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough.
thats not true
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i agree with the people that say that the blueflame-upgrade should be looked at before this goes live, either make it less expensive (i would almost say 50/50 lol) or give +2 regular damage and +5 vs light, that would be an awesome trade for meching Terrans, because the hellion would suck less against nonlight units.
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I see this Ultralisk Buff as one step in the right direction, since they are just simply Underused and not that great compared to their Cost.
Other than that, I think the Patch overall looks very good and reasonnable, looking forward to it.
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On August 26 2011 06:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:17 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd. Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen. No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough. Are you positive? Regen was instant in SC1, and the snipes do have to be simultaneous to kill an infestor... if it's even a half second off it won't kill the infestor as I've found out from trying many, many times...
AFAIK it's not actually possible to literally snipe 2x instantly, so the fact that it can work shows that regen isn't quite instant. It's extremely fast, but so are 3 hellions shooting at the same time (may be instant, not sure if the animation is just for show or not).
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hey guys - new tvt strat:
rush to combat shield and +1 armor (while massing marines) when vs mech and attack before siege is done ~ 6:40 secs. then marines must be 4 shot by hellions... LOL
don't look now... but i just broke tvt.
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On August 26 2011 06:10 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Show nested quote +Masters in 4v4 is pretty impressive. I'm proto\oss and lmao at being less than 18 years old. Learn to sim city around your base properly or sacrifice a bit of early econ to bring your wall up faster if you are that worried, any terran who dies to a 6 or 10 pool has failed hard. lol i figured you weren't that young, i was just kidding. and I def respect that opinion and understand what you mean, however, its easy to say "just sim city your base," its also easy to say "just wall off." two responses to this: 1 - a random zerg. 2 - in 3v3 and 4v4 you can't scout all the bases when separated b4 they hit with 6 pool. (ok 3 responses) 3- what if there are two zerg early pooling? yes you can sack early eco to fin wall in time but what if the wall-off requires 4-5 buildings (ever played on extinction)? if you did you would know what you are saying is full of (explative deleted) LOL. I'm just tyring to make the arguement that this has greater ramifications when you move past 1v1 (not everyone 1v1s mind you). and im sorry but are you really telling me not to wall as terran when there are possibly multiple zergs? when was the last time you saw MVP, Jinro, NaDa, MKP... or any terran for that matter, not wall against zerg? my problem: is that if your worker is finishing up your wall (with depot for instance) the lings can kill him from other side when he moves and then can start attacking the structure which cant be repaired (cause its not finished. and IF you sack your economy ultimately you will delay your OC so if they kill any workers at all you are even doubly f'd. btw if you send another worker to finish building while its being attacked from other side by lings, the worker will move to the exact location the old scv died at, thus creating a circle of death in any attempt to finish your wall. let me tell you - its very frustrating and i've tested this out.
let's not balance the game around 4v4 it's just for fun anyways. when there are a legitimate amount of 4v4 tournaments then u can start requesting
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I am a big fan of everyone one of these changes. I think this addresses a lot of the balance issues in sc2, and I think it is very fair to each race. Especially the warm prism and blink stalkers... both seriously needed changes for pvz, but both for very different reasons. Two base blink stalker all-ins are going to be a lot harder to execute perfectly as they were before. Warp prism might actually be able to get some place instead of being shot out of the sky. Awesome.
I am nevrous about the damage nerf vs nonarmored units for infestors in zvt... I don't know how that is going to effect mid and late game zvt when, without infestors, marine/tank/ghost is just vastly superior to most zerg compositions. Maybe remaxing on ultras might be possible with the new build time.
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On August 26 2011 06:12 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:00 MandoRelease wrote:On August 26 2011 05:54 Zorgaz wrote:On August 26 2011 05:47 MandoRelease wrote:On August 26 2011 05:10 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:03 Unfeared wrote:
Ok, so now it still takes 2 blue flame hellions to 1shot a zerglings.
And it will take 3 hellions instead of 2 hellions to 1shot workers. Who does Hellion drops with less than 3 hellions at a time? the change is bad because all it will do is reduce strategic variance, opting for reactored hellions kills probes/drones in 3 hits regardless so blue flame is now only useful vs combat shield marines, zerglings, and scvs so this change won't mess up tvt too badly but bfh openers aren't very good vs zerg nowif they paired it up with a change to the vehicle weapon upgrade for hellions to +2/lvl this change would make sense, but now it's just stupid That's plain wrong. Not only does it give you map control, but 3 bfh still one-shot 10 drones. The nerf did not touch either mobility nor efficiency versus lings. Something that was too good got nerfed, it doesn't make it bad. It makes it balanced. As far as i'm concerned, bfh is still a real good opener versus zerg. The only difference is that it may not outright give you the win like it used to. But why would we get blueflame if 3 hellions without it also can one-shot drones? Although 1-shooting 10 drones isn't possible since the hellions can't stand on top of eachother -.-. And they can't therefore get the same angle of attack. Still think Pre-Igniter upgrade should atleast buff the hellions overall damage like: +2(+3 to light) or something. As it is now the upgrade just went from Super good to pretty bad. Like I said, because the efficiency versus lings wasn't touched. Bfh still 2 shot lings (while standard helions 3-shot lings). That one shot difference assures you map control for the early game. I don't think this should be disregarded that much, since it means actually denying creep and the third of a greedy zerg. So, bfh are still a pretty good investment imo. so basically you're going to dodge the fact we corrected you when you said 3 bfh one-shot drones, when 3 red flame hellions also one shot drones there is literally no reason to open bfh anymore when you can have twice as many hellions to take care of zerglings, and faster medivacs instead
I'm not dodging anything. The "3-shot 10 drones" was a wanted exageration to indicate that standard helion & bfh are still really effective against drones. You missed it because tone is hard to translate when writing. No need to be patronizing.
Plus, I just gave you a reason why bfh are still good. Also getting "twice as many helions" is actually expensive, and it suggests you put your reactor on your factory, thus getting less marines (or a later expansion).
Standard helions and BFH just have different benefits and downsides. Why are you trying so hard to disregard the benefits of bfh ? It sets you up for another way to enter the mid-game. Neither worse nor better, just different.
Neither opnening appears worse than the other, please stop being so blind.
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On August 26 2011 06:23 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2011 06:17 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2011 05:59 extropy wrote:On August 26 2011 05:34 Dayrlan wrote:On August 26 2011 05:15 gentile wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason?
EDIT 2: nm ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc.. On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote:
Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade? yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.) More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.). At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker. Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_> This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades. On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd. Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen. No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough. Are you positive? Regen was instant in SC1, and the snipes do have to be simultaneous to kill an infestor... if it's even a half second off it won't kill the infestor as I've found out from trying many, many times... AFAIK it's not actually possible to literally snipe 2x instantly, so the fact that it can work shows that regen isn't quite instant. It's extremely fast, but so are 3 hellions shooting at the same time (may be instant, not sure if the animation is just for show or not).
perhaps it is possible to snipe with 2 ghosts twice instantly, and Hellion the animation is just for show. Damage is deal instantly iirc
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4v4 is broken anyways xD, and its fun, i almost play only 4v4 because there are battlecruisers, carriers, ultras etc on a regular basis xD
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Ouch... I play mech vZ so this is going to hurt quite a bit.
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On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Huh ? No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd.
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Thx man, makes sense - but it's plain useless I think  .
And here I thought it was gonna be some kind of ninja buff o___o.
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I think the BFH nerf vs drones is fine. Most of the time, the extra 5 damage was overkill.. I think the problem was when the Z/P/T kills 2-3 hellions, but there was still the fourth one that could literally devestate your economy single handedly. Now the drop has to be successful (I.e 2-3 hellions in your mineral line) for you to have success. This seems like a fine restriction.
I'm just really really really scared that TvT might step away from mech and back to BIO rather than seeing both. I just hope BFH isn't totally terrible vs the stuff it is supposed to rape, like lings, marines, zealots, sentries, etc.
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On August 26 2011 06:21 Naphal wrote:
i agree with the people that say that the blueflame-upgrade should be looked at before this goes live, either make it less expensive (i would almost say 50/50 lol) or give +2 regular damage and +5 vs light, that would be an awesome trade for meching Terrans, because the hellion would suck less against nonlight units.
Yeah that's exacly what i have been saying.
It should be +2(+3 against light)
And that means that hellions do (+5 against light) ^if someone misunderstands it 
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I play Terran. ;D
The hellion change I actually like because it makes it less of a worker rape in all matchups while keeping mech the same in TvT. No change in killing zerg units (excluding the drone). Here's the number of hits it now takes to kill said unit. A bit sad the zealot is harder to kill as that unit is godly in an already very difficult TvP matchup (excluding 1/1/1).
Hellion (24dmg vs light w/ BF -> 19dmg vs light w/ BF)
-> worker 2->3
-> zealot 7->8
-> marine 3->3
-> hellion 4->5
-> zergling 2->2
-> baneling 2->2
Hellion (16dmg vs light w/o BF)
-> worker 3 (4 for scv)
-> zealot 11
-> marine 4
-> hellion 7
-> zergling 3
-> baneling 3
SO if you're using hellions for worker harass BF isn't worth it. If you're using it to mech in TvT or to harass lings or kill mass zealot you should still invest in it.
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Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
This is huge. Another helpful buff needed for protoss in holding off the 1-1-1. Popping a guardian shield to hold it will now actually do something against that damn tank splash!
As for pvp, making the colossus vs colossus war a bit less potent.
Overall I am extremely happy with these patch notes. Not sure how the mothership change will pan out. Return of the mothership rush?!
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New change: "Workers are no longer light."
We could then buff back hellions and reapers into a more anti-unit role, and maybe change up phoenix a bit too^^. And who uses ghosts vs workers. Oh wells.
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On August 26 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:
New change: "Workers are no longer light."
We could then buff back hellions and reapers into a more anti-unit role, and maybe change up phoenix a bit too^^. And who uses ghosts vs workers. Oh wells.
Phoenix are cooler than hellions and reapers combined, so making them shit wouldn't be worth it sorry!
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let's not balance the game around 4v4 it's just for fun anyways. when there are a legitimate amount of 4v4 tournaments then u can start requesting
yes i know, its just more obvious of a point in 2v2 - 4v4 but still applies to 1v1. especially on 4v4 maps... like m.e.t.a.l.o.p.o.l.i.s.
btw no such thing as legit 4v4 tourneys ever. and yes, they do balance the game around 2v2 as well (hello reaper nerf!).
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EPT
