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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 02:42 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:40 RaMto wrote:
keep the theory-crafting coming terrans. Just face it your race was imbalanced as recognized by blizzard and now its going to be fixed. Guardian shield buff vs tank/ immortal +1 range and 5 more on barracks production bye bye 1-1-1 (waves). High master protoss for anyone that even cares.
5 sec delay over an entire match is a huge effect on terran macro. Maybe you terrans will be the ones cowering on your ramp in fear of early aggression now. <3 u blizz
Protoss are designed to turtle until deathball, sorry you want to be able to 4 gate and win every game. 1/1/1 has failed a decent number of times in high level games, just protoss who can't figure it out needed the help I guess. although i dont think I have ever seen a deathball lose to a zerg...funny what balance means to some.
Your ignorance doesn't even deserve a response. Maybe gt out of wood leauge and come back?
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On August 26 2011 02:42 andrea20 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:38 Trealador wrote:
Do not use TvT in comparison for PvT. TvT is a huge stand off with tanks so you literally have ages to make BCs. If you give a terran enough time to make a dozen BCs as Protoss you really are doing it wrong. Actually, the discussion wasn't whether BCs were viable in PvT, but rather whether the carrier was even useful at all.
Carriers and BCs are never ever used (outside of TvT) because they are just too hard to get out. At pro level why would you even worry about carriers or BCs, those are units for the lols and for noobs to have fun with. I really don't see why you need them when you have HT, colossus, and archons to use.
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Funny to see people overreact on nerfs to their respective race.
The T losing to 6 pools because of the 5 second rax nerf is probably my favorite...followed closely how hellions are now useless.
Gogo speshul taktiks!
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On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 RibsNGibs wrote:
The overseer change is interesting. With a gas reduction by 50% and contaminate energy increase of 66% it's actually a buff for contaminate (you get more contaminates per 100 gas). Not sure if that's necessary, but it'll be nice to have access to cheaper overseers for sure. A buff to contaminate ? Lol, you are a funny one. It's a huge nerf. 1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch. 2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over. In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this. In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now)
I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go 
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as a zerg player I'm happy with the ultralisk buff because I've lost game due to the long building time of the ultralisk. In late game scenarios zerg should be able to remax but 70 was too long.
the overseer changes is met by ambiguous feelings. contamination were a good use of the overseer in zvz and weren't too little in the other match ups. the gas cost reduction is welcomed but won't affect the overseer scout timing that much because of the lair requirement.
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On August 26 2011 02:12 Jonneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 26 2011 01:55 Jonneh wrote:On August 26 2011 01:52 darkness wrote:What I want to see as well is carrier buff. You don't see any of those units anymore.  Thoughts? you would if gateway units weren't so effective. Why waste gas on stargates when blink stalkers are the counter to everything? :D You're right, so imba versus marauders. So you use the even cheaper unit against those right? ;D Kinda thinking the original point is pretty valid.
Oh, so now we're introducing more units than blink stalkers. So zealots and stalkers? Both die horribly to marine marauder assuming equal upgrades, watch games like MC v Puma where his HT are taken out when he's about 40 supply ahead and then he proceeds to lose (MC was behind 1 attack upgrade but ti didn't matter at all, Puma ended up with more supply after the engagement than he had before the fight when MC dropped down 80 supply). I remember a game with Huk v Tarson where he got completely owned once his templar were shut down. But of course now you're going to say what, that zealot/stalker/ht is the counter to everything? Oh shit an entire unit composition including t3 and t2 upgrades of charge and blink do decently in engagement, that definitely backs up the statement that blink stalkers are the counter to everything.
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u are terran u can wall off vs 6 pool. I love how terrans complain "oh damn this is BS i can't 1 shot drones anymore" Terrans r just so use to the imbalance they can't handle needing to actually build real mechanics and skills now.
User was warned for this post
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I think they need to buff ravens more by reducing the cost on there abilitys (mineral cost)
In general if you want to have a functional raven it will cost you the same as a BC, raven 25energy and seeker missle costs 150/150 each, that's waay overpriced.
100/100 should put it at a more acceptable level atleast and i think seeker missle should do some additional damage to.
Ravens are a unit that should be used a lot more than it's but it's such a setback and time req to get one aswell as you need an extra binding for it so most people doesnt even bother because it helps so little to have one. One can argue that defense drone is good but consider the amount of minerals you have to spend to get a raven you might aswell get more units instead.
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United States826 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:45 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 RibsNGibs wrote:
The overseer change is interesting. With a gas reduction by 50% and contaminate energy increase of 66% it's actually a buff for contaminate (you get more contaminates per 100 gas). Not sure if that's necessary, but it'll be nice to have access to cheaper overseers for sure. A buff to contaminate ? Lol, you are a funny one. It's a huge nerf. 1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch. 2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over. In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this. In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now) I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go
lol what? you're kidding right
thats like asking zerg to split zerlings from siege tank splash 
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I can't wait to start using Ultras more!! I agree, 70 seconds was too long when you need to remax during the end game. I also sincerely hope to see more immortals, imo they are seriously underused because of their big brother, Colossus.
A big thanks to Blizzard for a great patch.
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I wonder how -1 vision up the ramp will affect rushing. Looks kinda impredictable but potentially very dangerous for the rusher.
Goodbye, blue hellion. On the other hand I guess they will be feared less, which means less predictable.
Good to hear about memory use tweak. I had issues with that.
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On August 26 2011 02:49 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:45 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 RibsNGibs wrote:
The overseer change is interesting. With a gas reduction by 50% and contaminate energy increase of 66% it's actually a buff for contaminate (you get more contaminates per 100 gas). Not sure if that's necessary, but it'll be nice to have access to cheaper overseers for sure. A buff to contaminate ? Lol, you are a funny one. It's a huge nerf. 1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch. 2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over. In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this. In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now) I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go lol what? you're kidding right thats like asking zerg to split zerlings from siege tank splash
Eh no. You have 8 seconds to click each of your marines once. You just need to nail the timing so they all get healed enough. Sounds pretty easy for a pro, even.
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I don't have any comment on the specific balance changes but it seems like Blizzard and the community are too quick to ask for all kinds of nerfs every time a new powerful strat emerges. Why didn't Blizzard have to constantly patch Brood War? Wasn't there just 1 major balance patch? People would revolutionize a match up and dominate for quite some time until it was figured out and yet units never seemed to be nerfed, and in the end people figured out how to respond effectively. I just have the feeling that this game is going to be constantly patched for its entire lifetime because no one will ever be satisfied. I think it is due to the mentality that people developed from playing mmo's such as daoc and wow.
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The Deathball constantly loses to a Roach/Infestor/Baneling drop combo.
As much as people like to make the A-move joke on the Deathball, is very much needs to be able to move and micro in order to be effective. You will find countless pro games of the Deathball being held in place by multiple fungals while Banelings rain on it.
Early in the game's development, Protoss's 'strength' was a strong army when massed. That strength has been very quickly exposed as an extreme weakness, because it becomes both very vulnerable to drops and any AOE spells/explosions.
As people learned that they can trade armies with Protoss, and when rebuilt, the Protoss won't be able to remake that same composition fast enough, things shifted towards the other races.
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Everything looks great IMO except for the hellion and warp prism changes. Hellions will still be effective but there is no reason to get blue flame before seige now, essentially taking out hellions doing real damage in the early game (besides maybe 1-1-1 hellion drop?). Not a bad change though since hellions were wrecking zerg early game. Warp prisms.. so strong now, AND they can warp. I have a feeling they won't get the full 60 shield buff by the time the real patch comes out. 200 total hp and shields, and ability to warp, and including the fact warp prisms are wicked fast after speed upgrade would be hard for people to deal with. Although I would love to see some shuttle/reaver... warpprism/colos play 
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On August 26 2011 01:05 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:44 harhar! wrote:On August 26 2011 00:33 Pengu wrote:On August 26 2011 00:31 harhar! wrote:On August 26 2011 00:21 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 00:19 harhar! wrote:
btw. roach-hydra is imba in zvt. ppl just dont know it yet but its true. imba in that is loses against pretty much every conceivable combo of terran no it does not. just wait and see, its going to be the standart in zvt, at least for a while. :S Based on what >? Marine marauder crushes it ? Add in tanks it gets crushed more, add in medics even more. who goes mmm in tvz? and no it does not get crushed by tanks, thats the point. i met a GM guy in a tourney once, who crushed me with this strat after i was already ahead quite a bit. i asked him about this strat and he told me, that he beats terrans like tlo, strelok and so on and ahas a zvt winrate of 90%. and i found that believable. (though there also were some infestors/blings mixed in, thats to keep in mind). You based your entire theory of roach hydra taking over the world from one guy who is better than you beating you. Roach Hydra results in Terran being up in bases because Zerg cannot do a thing to deny it. Tanks. Marines in large numbers cannot be beaten by any non aoe unit in the game, and destroy roach/hydra with medivac support. Equal supplies of marines and roach/hydra would be a funny thing to watch. Roaches and hydras just overkill way too much to be considered good dps units. They can't defeat mass stalkers I don't see how they can defeat marines. Tanks. Also, how do you deal with drops? They are so slow. Also, tanks.
i know the theory myself, thanks but the praxis is just a different one and soon ppl will understand. i at least hope hey wont, but lets talk about this later...
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United States826 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:51 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:49 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:45 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 RibsNGibs wrote:
The overseer change is interesting. With a gas reduction by 50% and contaminate energy increase of 66% it's actually a buff for contaminate (you get more contaminates per 100 gas). Not sure if that's necessary, but it'll be nice to have access to cheaper overseers for sure. A buff to contaminate ? Lol, you are a funny one. It's a huge nerf. 1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch. 2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over. In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this. In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now) I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go lol what? you're kidding right thats like asking zerg to split zerlings from siege tank splash Eh no. You have 8 seconds to click each of your marines once. You just need to nail the timing so they all get healed enough. Sounds pretty easy for a pro, even.
so you're saying amidst all the battle and macro that's going on, you need to turn off auto heal toggle, click every marine in the fungal in 8 seconds, turn back auto heal? you're saying that's easy?
also not sure why you're bringing this stuff up when i said fungals CANT kill marines being healed :S
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As a Zerg player I'm looking forward to this patch
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Unbelievable. Double proxy gate in base will now rape terran. Even if they do the single proxy gate into stalkers cheese, it'll be so damn strong. Do not understand the barracks increased build time.
I could live with hellion nerf, just can't believe how easy it is to get something nerfed. SlayerS uses their little build like twice, and all zergs go nuts, and now we have a nerfed unit. I don't even remember the last time I saw the slayers timing push work...
And now, not only will infestors still kill marines and workers in 2 fungals as well as keeping the root ability, they now deal 10 more damage to tanks with each fungal. Soounndddsss fair.
Overall glad they changed toss though.
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Whats up with this particular patch notes?
The discussion seems worse than usual.Is the PTR up yet? I want to try a Zealot Immortal with a sprinkle of Hts against T
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EPT
