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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 02:54 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:51 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:49 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:45 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 RibsNGibs wrote:
The overseer change is interesting. With a gas reduction by 50% and contaminate energy increase of 66% it's actually a buff for contaminate (you get more contaminates per 100 gas). Not sure if that's necessary, but it'll be nice to have access to cheaper overseers for sure. A buff to contaminate ? Lol, you are a funny one. It's a huge nerf. 1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch. 2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over. In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this. In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now) I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go  lol what? you're kidding right thats like asking zerg to split zerlings from siege tank splash  Eh no. You have 8 seconds to click each of your marines once. You just need to nail the timing so they all get healed enough. Sounds pretty easy for a pro, even. so you're saying amidst all the battle and macro that's going on, you need to turn off auto heal toggle, click every marine in the fungal in 8 seconds, turn back auto heal? you're saying that's easy? also not sure why you're bringing this stuff up when i said fungals CANT kill marines being healed :S
For a pro with 300apm? Why not? That's 10 actions total in 8 seconds. To make them use an extra fungal. Sounds pretty good to me.
I mention it because trying to save your marines previously was hopeless but now you can :>
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Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section.
Only allow friends to send me invites.
Only allow friends to send me chat messages.
Set status to Busy when playing a game.
Does this mean anyone on your friend list, or anyone with you on their friend list?
Sorry if it was asked before =/
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About time with that FG nerf. As a Terran I really can't complain about the patch. BFH were too good in some situations. As long as they leave my marine and tank alone I'm fine.
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On August 26 2011 02:57 hli wrote:
Unbelievable. Double proxy gate in base will now rape terran. Even if they do the single proxy gate into stalkers cheese, it'll be so damn strong. Do not understand the barracks increased build time.
I could live with hellion nerf, just can't believe how easy it is to get something nerfed. SlayerS uses their little build like twice, and all zergs go nuts, and now we have a nerfed unit. I don't even remember the last time I saw the slayers timing push work...
And now, not only will infestors still kill marines and workers in 2 fungals as well as keeping the root ability, they now deal 10 more damage to tanks with each fungal. Soounndddsss fair.
Overall glad they changed toss though.
10 more damage to tanks, wut? They deal 47 dmg to armored atm and after patch it will be 40, how is that 10 more damage?
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gotta love how blizzard to fix early game timing buffs protoss late game deathbal more and more, first archones now immortals
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On August 26 2011 02:52 macil222 wrote:
I don't have any comment on the specific balance changes but it seems like Blizzard and the community are too quick to ask for all kinds of nerfs every time a new powerful strat emerges. Why didn't Blizzard have to constantly patch Brood War? Wasn't there just 1 major balance patch? People would revolutionize a match up and dominate for quite some time until it was figured out and yet units never seemed to be nerfed, and in the end people figured out how to respond effectively. I just have the feeling that this game is going to be constantly patched for its entire lifetime because no one will ever be satisfied. I think it is due to the mentality that people developed from playing mmo's such as daoc and wow.
WTF, how can you even compare daoc and wow? Thats not even possible... i hate you.
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On August 26 2011 03:00 humbre wrote:
gotta love how blizzard to fix early game timing buffs protoss late game deathbal more and more, first archones now immortals
Can't remember the last time I've seen much Immortals in a Protoss deathball, usually it's just Colossus with Blink Stalkers or a Gateway mix with Archon/VR
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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On August 26 2011 02:58 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:54 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:51 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:49 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:45 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 RibsNGibs wrote:
The overseer change is interesting. With a gas reduction by 50% and contaminate energy increase of 66% it's actually a buff for contaminate (you get more contaminates per 100 gas). Not sure if that's necessary, but it'll be nice to have access to cheaper overseers for sure. A buff to contaminate ? Lol, you are a funny one. It's a huge nerf. 1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch. 2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over. In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this. In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now) I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go lol what? you're kidding right thats like asking zerg to split zerlings from siege tank splash Eh no. You have 8 seconds to click each of your marines once. You just need to nail the timing so they all get healed enough. Sounds pretty easy for a pro, even. so you're saying amidst all the battle and macro that's going on, you need to turn off auto heal toggle, click every marine in the fungal in 8 seconds, turn back auto heal? you're saying that's easy? also not sure why you're bringing this stuff up when i said fungals CANT kill marines being healed :S For a pro with 300apm? Why not? That's 10 actions total in 8 seconds. To make them use an extra fungal. Sounds pretty good to me. I mention it because trying to save your marines previously was hopeless but now you can :>
you realize there are far more important things that you need to do in a battle (i.e. focus fire with tanks, split marines, macro) than freaking click individual marines with medivacs right? what you're saying is just theorycraft
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OK so I did not know the other thread was going to be closed, so here's the math for the overseer changes.
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's ignore the 50 mineral difference between 1 overseer pre-patch and 2 overseers postpatch.
Since you gain 0.5625 energy per second, it means that you will be able to use 2 contamination after 133 ig seconds (as opposed to 1 contamination after 44 ig seconds). The next two comes 222 ig seconds later, while as it stands today, the next contamination comes 133 ig secondes later.
So starting from the moment you morph overseer,
At the 577th second mark, today : 5 contaminations. post-patch : 6 contaminations.
So, starting from that mark, you need
post-patch : 111.11... sec per contamination
today : 133,33... sec per contamination
also
post-patch : 1 sec = 0.009 of a contamination
today : 1 sec = 0.0075 of a contamination
That is a 20% contamination gain, after the 577th second mark
Overall the gain is therefore 20% more contamination +1, as long as you're past 577 seconds after the morphing of the overseers. Before that mark, the fact that overseers start with 50 energy makes it hard to give a specific number for the gain.
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On August 26 2011 02:58 Rawr wrote:Show nested quote +
Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section.
Only allow friends to send me invites.
Only allow friends to send me chat messages.
Set status to Busy when playing a game.
Does this mean anyone on your friend list, or anyone with you on your friend list? Sorry if it was asked before =/
Just analyze the logic behind the two potential meanings, and you'll find out. Drawing conclusions by yourself is key compenent to become a better player.
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"Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack."
Does anyone care to make a well educated post as to what exactly this means? Don't really feel like searching through walls of text. Much thanks.
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On August 26 2011 02:57 windsupernova wrote:
Whats up with this particular patch notes?
The discussion seems worse than usual.Is the PTR up yet? I want to try a Zealot Immortal with a sprinkle of Hts against T
Cause they didnt straight up buff or nerf 1 or the other. they buffed toss AND nerfed terran.
Please go zealot immortal. it will please my 1 banshee.
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On August 26 2011 02:57 hli wrote:
Unbelievable. Double proxy gate in base will now rape terran. Even if they do the single proxy gate into stalkers cheese, it'll be so damn strong. Do not understand the barracks increased build time.
I could live with hellion nerf, just can't believe how easy it is to get something nerfed. SlayerS uses their little build like twice, and all zergs go nuts, and now we have a nerfed unit. I don't even remember the last time I saw the slayers timing push work...
And now, not only will infestors still kill marines and workers in 2 fungals as well as keeping the root ability, they now deal 10 more damage to tanks with each fungal. Soounndddsss fair.
Overall glad they changed toss though.
You got an account for that comment? People are awesome.
If they proxy IN BASE and you DON'T scout it... It's your fault. If you do scout it... Then defend it, 3 seconds won't matter in 999 proxy 2 gates out of 1000.
Infestors do LESS damage and do NOT kill a marine healed by a medivac. They do LESS damage to Tanks. Down from 46.8 to 40. How is that 10 more?
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DAMN IT, next year it is :/
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Blue Flame Hellions aren't dead by any means, 5 damage each isn't THAT much. I mean its a lot, but Terran will still use them, they are still strong, just not over powered anymore. That is the idea behind balance.
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On August 26 2011 03:02 slam wrote:
"Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack."
Does anyone care to make a well educated post as to what exactly this means? Don't really feel like searching through walls of text. Much thanks.
My thought is that it means Guardian Shield will actually work on Siege Shots, etc. Which means it will be slightly easier to hold 1/1/1 all-in, but that all-in is still VERY strong even with these changes. Immortals can't shoot up, and Marines have always been the source of the imbalance with that push.
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On August 26 2011 03:01 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:58 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:54 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:51 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:49 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:45 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 02:42 Namu wrote:On August 26 2011 02:33 Wire wrote:On August 26 2011 02:28 Existor wrote:On August 26 2011 02:26 Elean wrote:
[quote]
A buff to contaminate ?
Lol, you are a funny one.
It's a huge nerf.
1) It means you get your contaminate much later. And this is a huge nerf to overseer in ZvZ. It will really hurt strategies getting lair before hatch.
2) When you fly an overseer over the ennemy base, your main objective is to scout. You are not going to send 2 overseer just to get 1 more contaminate. Befor the patch, you could get 2 contaminate with a single overseer, now it's over.
In ZvP & ZvT, contaminate has never been really powerfull, but at least it was cool. So sad to nerf this.
In ZvZ, it is usefull and that is great, no need to change it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258937 lol owned elean. The warp prism buff seems like a nice subtle boost to protoss. white-ra must be partying his pants off. Has anyone tested the infestor change to be sure that it still takes 2 fungals to kill combat shielded marines that are being healed by medivacs? It seems a little too close to comfort for me. Other than that the changes seem alright, nothing too crazy. Buffs were needed and we all just have to deal with nerfs, amiright? :D 2 fungals could never kill marines being healed by medivacs (not even now) I believe if you micro your medivac, you can save the majority of your marines (assuming drop ratios, 8:1). Healing is ~9 per second, and 2 fungals lasts for 8 seconds. You need 6hp healed per marine, so if you heal each of them once you theoretically save them all. If you're looking for more ways to micro as Terran, there you go lol what? you're kidding right thats like asking zerg to split zerlings from siege tank splash Eh no. You have 8 seconds to click each of your marines once. You just need to nail the timing so they all get healed enough. Sounds pretty easy for a pro, even. so you're saying amidst all the battle and macro that's going on, you need to turn off auto heal toggle, click every marine in the fungal in 8 seconds, turn back auto heal? you're saying that's easy? also not sure why you're bringing this stuff up when i said fungals CANT kill marines being healed :S For a pro with 300apm? Why not? That's 10 actions total in 8 seconds. To make them use an extra fungal. Sounds pretty good to me. I mention it because trying to save your marines previously was hopeless but now you can :> you realize there are far more important things that you need to do in a battle (i.e. focus fire with tanks, split marines, macro) than freaking click individual marines with medivacs right? what you're saying is just theorycraft
Obviously I'm not talking about a big fight, I'm talking about drops or small engagements.
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On August 26 2011 03:03 tnud wrote:DAMN IT, next year it is :/
Haha, my thoughts exactly.
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1. They are trying to make it more viable. Wait till pros use it well one day (kind of like has been happening to nukes recently for position) and everyone will be hailing them heroes. Don't complain when it hasn't even been seen in play yet.
2. The 5 second build to is early 2 rax pressure as well as to delay the 1/1/1 as well as the early double gas reactor hellions into cloaked banshee pressure while expand vs zerg. All strats that have been very strong as of late.
3. Name another race that can have 200 minerals worth, 1 shots multiple workers and are super fast. There's your hellion. Maybe this is why they nerfed it hm?
4. Overseers also have no damage output, are as slow as ravens pre upgrade, are tier 2 and the only non-static detection a zerg player has. Not to mention floating targets to get raped. Terran have scans, toss are in the same boat as zerg, but observers cost less, don't lose supply when they die and are cloaked.
5.Ultralisk are also the only melee tier 3 unit in the game. It is the only potential tier 3 unit to die while doing absolutely no damage. Stop complaining if you don't know the problem.
Blink is a tier 2 spell to research and you have marauders that make it pretty much useless anyway.
HOW do warp prisms have more functionality compared to medivacs and HOW do they cost half as much. 200 min != half of 100 min and 100 gas. How often have you been able to sit a medivac in your enemies base when they have units that can shoot up and not killed them. Same goes for a warp prism trying to warp in units (which will die if you kill the prism while they are warping no less).
1- There's a reason it hasnt been seen in play in over a year of starcraft... because it isnt viable and not worth the investment (100/200 + (time it take to get 150 energy) + upgrade cost). sorry but you still will never see this in gsl or even mlg for that matter.
2- yes, nerf strong builds. thats makes sense. hey, when did muta ling bane ever get nerfed again...?
3- yesss 200 minerals for glass cannon that cannot to anything but harrass and now it cant even effectively do that anymore. you also dont even mention the fact that YOU HAVE TO UPGRADE the ability which means two things:
a - opportunity cost lost
b - we are not talking about 200 minerals anymore, its actually 350/150 for first two.
the point is its a huuge investment and now the returns have been greatly diminished.
4- why does an overseer need damage output? it costs nothing now. air detection cannot be hit by banshees or dts, therefore it makes sense that it floats. you can also use overseers to scout with 'the poop scout' so they dont have to go far from army or base. i'm sorry terran has scans bro (they should not count as 'mobile detection'), but if you played terran you would know you are not supposed to be using scans on dts and such if possible. problem is YOU HAVE TO USE SCAN which negates the economy boost protoss and zerg dont have to sacrafice (chrono and larva injects).
5 - "only tier 3 melee unit in game" - why do you say that as if its some bastard child? WHAT PROBLEM? if it dies while doing no damage its your own darn fault, not the unit's - try using burrow, nydus, and drops with ultras. the problem is that you can make them simultaneously and now you can make them faster. i think this is somewhat offset by having to tech to hive, however, time will tell if this is truly imba.
lastly - here is the follow known functionality of warp prisms vs medivacs
- high templar pickup/drops to prevent snipe/ emp.
- speed upgrade = greater utility on larger maps and cannot be caught by any units except for pheonix and mutas.
- zealot drops in mineral line
- dt high ground warp-ins
- sentry drops + ff ramp + warp in
- proxy cannon rush (in phasing mode)
- immortal drop + zealot warp-in
- hides the units that are in the prism (unlike thors).
- works as forward pylon.
- fake drop to get units out of position
-high ground sight
point is - if you have some imagination, you can prob come up with more uses than medivacs which do the following :
- heal bio
- drop bio (finite amount)
- drop thor (just 1 and its visible)
- hellion drop.
- high ground sight
the medivac only combos with bio well. as opposed to the prism which can support all three tech paths for toss. prism also builds faster and has more overall health (including shields - which regen). plus if you take into account that it is capable of being produced sooner means toss should be able to start dropping terran b4 terran can do the same to toss. lastly, 100 gas is easily worth 200 minerals in actuality because for a warp prism i dont sacrafice power units but with medivacs you do (can't produce medivacs without cutting back on other tech like tanks). The only thing offsetting this fact is that robo costs 200 gas (same as fac + starport) to produce and you can produce 2 medivacs as opposed to 1 prism.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uLet7.png)
