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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 02:09 iHirO wrote:
Personally I cant see the rationale for the barracks build time increase. Its going to have a dramatic effect on timings (e.g. going gas first leaves you even more vulnerable to early pressure than before).
Also its a shame about the hellion nerf, the metagame was only starting to evolve and it feels like a Blizzard have thrown the toys out of the pram too soon. A research time or cost increase sounds fairer.
Something needs to be done about the range of strats terran has behind a walloff which is unscoutable. Not sure if this is an attempt at that, or just to punish greedy openings like you say.. either way I'm not so sure its a terminal nerf to either situation.
Agree a bit on the Hellion nerf, though watching TvZ die to a hellion all in, which isnt even an all in its just mass hellion into expand, boring to watch.
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People saying 5 seconds on Barracks won't affect 1-1-1....
I think you'd be surprised how much a change like that effects early game. It makes all Protoss openings safer and that means the possibility of more risks and getting ahead on econ.
After all 1-1-1 is quite a late rush (now 5 seconds later lol). With time to get the observer in on most maps you can pump 2 immortals and defend.
Lots of people missing the hidden changes too.
Is the Collosus laser trailing change a nerf to it's poking damage?
Can you now load fungaled marines into a medi-vac?
Showing resources returned is really important to observing too. No more "Did he cancel??", "Did he get the money?". Now we'll know for sure.
There's a couple more significant changes I can't remember. OP needs updating really.
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I like the immortal range increase. Not sure why they changed the rax build timing. And I also do not like the hellion damage being cut in half... maybe take 3-4 off max.
Cant wait to see the acceleration on that mothership! loL
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these changes all seem way too extreme at this stage in the game's development imo
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Seems like blizzard is learning a lot from recent tournaments.
The only I wish they would add is Timestamps for chat.
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If you are a zerg unit being chased by an HSM and you burrow, does the HSM go to where you burrowed and explode? Will it chase you if you have burrow move? Does anyone know what will happen?
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On August 26 2011 02:13 andrea20 wrote:
I was hoping the carrier would've gotten more love, since at this point it's virtually strictly worse than a battlecruiser. (longer build time, more minerals after 4 interceptors built, no ability, lower dps, same speed, less hp+shields, less armor, 50 less gas than a battlecruiser to make up for all that!)
I love the rest of the changes, though.
Carriers do have more range, which is pretty huge since you don't wanna lose these units once you get them.
Personally I think both BCs and carriers should get some love. Blizzard has said they are fine with them being more "fun" units instead of competitive, which kinda sucks.
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On August 26 2011 02:17 Zanno wrote:
these changes all seem way too extreme at this stage in the game's development imo
20 Terrans in Code S. 38% PvT winrate. Etc. And these changes aren't even extreme. They're fairly small changes that will hopefully address those issues. Also they promote more fun play, like drop play from toss.
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On August 26 2011 02:17 VassiliZaytsev wrote:
If you are a zerg unit being chased by an HSM and you burrow, does the HSM go to where you burrowed and explode? Will it chase you if you have burrow move? Does anyone know what will happen?
it chases you
I like the patch changes but if we're trying to make things more viable, Blizzard, could you please take a look at the Hydralisk and a better look at the Ultralisk? 
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On August 26 2011 01:22 moregamethanSEGA wrote:As a terran player this patch makes my blood boil, and here are my reasons why: 1 - + Show Spoiler +nobody can get a raven close enough to an enemy unit use the seeker missle so who care how fast it moves? hey blizzard, here an idea, how bout you increase the range (to 7) of the spell OR the speed of the raven (to 2.75). I mean, something in the terran air armada needs be able to retreat). So dont piss in my pocket and tell me its raining - the raven still sucks and is unusable. Instead of the medivac upgrade WHICH NO ONE USES, give the raven a speed/invisibility upgrade for pete's sake. 2- + Show Spoiler +barracks nerf literally makes no sense. let me repeat: this actually doesn't make sense to nerf the building time - thus slowing down all tech for terran (factory, starport). i didnt realize the 11/11 rax vs zerg was this imba that now I have to worry about getting 6 pooled every game now outside of 1v1s. someone needs to explain why this change was made. workers harrass me while i build the barracks every game anyhow so I'm already losing minerals cause I have to send another worker off the line as is - why must you make it so painful for terrans to just make their first non-worker unit? 3 - + Show Spoiler +the blue flame nerf is excessive without a doubt (50% nerf). now it can't two shot marines or scvs. now i have to reseach +1 for that? really blizzard? when a unit becomes popular you make it worthless? why would i even research that upgrade now for +5 damage (ONLY vs light). i didnt realize hellions were that good (oh wait they are not). it called make stalkers and roaches (which is the standard anyhow for those races)... and now lings with speed can easily own hellons (which was the whole point of the fracking unit/upgrade). Oh and if you didnt know, now banelings REALLY own hellons. 4 - + Show Spoiler +Ultralisk build time buff is unbelievable. 55 secs for tier 3 units... enough said. ultra now fastest tier 3 unit to make (not to mention you can make multiple at a time as zerg. ultra make faster than bc, thor, banshee, raven. - really? REALLY? I dont care how long it takes to get hive this messes up multiplayer in big way. 5 - + Show Spoiler +overseer cost reduced is acceptable BUT given the relativity of each races detector, the raven costs too much in comparision. yeah, its abilites are nice, but you have to upgrade the crap out of it (im sorry but turret ability is worthless 99% of time. so basically i have to pay almost 4 times as much in gas (and even more in minerals) as any other race for the same thing, effectively - plus i have to tech to starport with a techlab? this just doesn't make sense to me in any way, shape, or form. the raven is also the slowest of all detectors and is most fragile given it is both slow and not invisible - therefore its not even useful AT ALL for scouting. Thank you blizzard for removing all fun from sc2 for terrans. I bet next patch with nerf the ghosts. I truly hope blizzard has plans to add new units cause it getting a little out of hand with all these nerfs for terran. As for the rest of the changes, I dont see anything wrong with them. Blink is too good and too cheap imho. i should take longer to get blink than blue flame for sure. mothership buff is hilariously pointless. immortal range SHOULD have been increased long ago casue its so slow and bulky anyways. warp prism buff makes sense as that unit was, in fact, too fragile (even though it only cost minerals...), but regardless that unit costs half as much as medivac and you can argue its a more versitile unit when used correctly. lastly, why even bother nerfing an ability like contaminate no one uses? Isn't there something else more useful/impactful that can be tweaked? Just when I was starting to enjoy mech now they throw this s**t in my face... hope the rest of you terrans feel the same way I do. maybe that way blizzard will listen.
I actually was going to suggest that blizzard nerf the ghosts and that that's the only the only thing really missing from this amazing patch. Sorry buddy.
Also notice how the only variety they removed was cheesy blue flame hellion builds. They made Raven's more viable and bio more viable (thanks to infestor nerf). In the end, I think terran is going to be stronger in the mid/late game against zerg because of the infestor nerf. 5 Seconds on the barracks is probably related to the larger map sizes that we have now. In the early beta, maps were super tiny so to defend a 6 pool you needed that super fast rax. Now the maps are a lot bigger. That's the reasoning i can see for the change.
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I think the far better WP will help a lot against ghosts. Templar shuttles will definitely be standard now.
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So....just add 1 more hellion into the mix? Makes it more of a risk but there is still a huge payoff.
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On August 26 2011 02:17 Bagi wrote:
Carriers do have more range, which is pretty huge since you don't wanna lose these units once you get them.
Well, sure, but does that matter after a fleet of BCs greet the enemy army with a yamato gun salute?
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While reducing ultra build time is nice, imo it's not enough. They simply don't do enough damage to non-armored units to be worth their cost.
The raven change is interesting; wondering which units can no longer out run seeker missiles now.
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On August 26 2011 02:15 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:12 Jonneh wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 26 2011 01:55 Jonneh wrote:On August 26 2011 01:52 darkness wrote:What I want to see as well is carrier buff. You don't see any of those units anymore. Thoughts? you would if gateway units weren't so effective. Why waste gas on stargates when blink stalkers are the counter to everything? :D You're right, so imba versus marauders. So you use the even cheaper unit against those right? ;D Kinda thinking the original point is pretty valid. Yeah no. They're a useful support unit in PvT but they lose to basically everything Terran can build in a straight up fight.
On August 26 2011 02:15 Loodah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:12 Jonneh wrote:On August 26 2011 01:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 26 2011 01:55 Jonneh wrote:On August 26 2011 01:52 darkness wrote:What I want to see as well is carrier buff. You don't see any of those units anymore. Thoughts? you would if gateway units weren't so effective. Why waste gas on stargates when blink stalkers are the counter to everything? :D You're right, so imba versus marauders. So you use the even cheaper unit against those right? ;D Kinda thinking the original point is pretty valid. Actually marauders own zealots AND stallkers. Marines own zealots and stalkers, too as long as you micro.
Actually I don't really agree, assuming you get EMPd then yeah, perhaps. But then it depends a lot on what tech you have... guardian shield, charge, blink, templar+storm? How many medivacs, and so on. The flat numbers don't support your assertions. A zealot takes how many marine hits to die? Isn't it something stupidly high?
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I think that the contaminate changes are effective so zerg players don't mass overlords due to the price reduction. Therefore, they would just goo all of the opponents building. I think that this is fair.
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Not sure what you're disagreeing about. Stalkers lose to most units in the game in a straight up fight. They're really shit at straight up fights, as designed. They get utterly demolished by marauders, and marines beat them just as cost effectively, if not more (no gas required!).
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Hopefully all the people complaining about the patch notes actually go onto the PTR and play 1.4 so that Blizzard can get some decent data/feedback that isn't based entirely on theory. Previous PTRs have been extremely dead =/.
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dont understand most of these changes, which we could hear blizzards side on this.
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This might just be the most epic patch ever. These changes actually make a lot of sense. Faster mothership, warp prism is harder to kill, hellions might not grant total control of the map anymore, Raven seeker missiles aren't so slow anymore, and ultras build quicker. Awesome.
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EPT
