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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 01:21 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:48 plated.rawr wrote:
I don't understand the fungal growth change. Its power does not lie in its one-shot lethality, but rather in its ease of reapplication after the first cast. Marginally reducing the damage does nothing to change this, so it's a silly change.
Increased ranged on immortals sounds painful for roaches.
Blue flame change makes the upgrade overpriced, but I agree the damage nerf is justified.
Other than that, the rest looks decent enough. There is one thing I don't like about the Fungal Change and the Blue Flame-Change: it's a pretty race-specific nerf. Take Fungal for example: I really don't mind the slight nerf against Marines, cuz it will be still very strong and Infestor+Broodlords will still be viable against Vikings etc. But Against Protoss, there is really no reason to nerf Fungal IMHO.Same is true for Blue Flame: It's ridiculously overpowered against Zerg and even though it's also very good against Workers of every race, BF-Hellions are really underused in TvP and I don't think a nerf against Zealots is really needed. That will just make Mech an even less viable option against Protoss... I also think that Blue Flame is by design a "bad" Upgrade for the game, cuz it puts the Hellion, which is very strong against light Units, even without the Upgrade, in an even bigger niche and therefore makes it a very counter-oriented Unit that by design can be countered easily by just not making light Units. Why not give them +5 against light and +5 against Armored or sth.? Or just get rid of the Upgrade and give the Hellion sth. else, like spidermines. I also don't think that -5 against light is that big of a deal tbh - you just need 1 more Hellion to 2shot Workers and with 4 Hellions being able to fit into a Dropship and with them being able to get pumped out by reactors, that really doesn't matter against Zerg and worker, but really matters against Protoss, which is exactly the opposite of what they should go for in balancing the Hellion... Why not tackle the Hellion-Problem from another angle, like reducing the AoE, rate of fire, make the building-time higher or anything like that? Maybe even a reactor-nerf would be a decent solution to both the hellion-Problem and the Marines, that are still incredibly powerful. Just make the reactor more expensive or build slower or sth. like that.
Let me guess, you play zerg? I think the popular opinion is that infestors are way to useful/all around good right now. Fungal does insane damage, infested terrans do more dps than hydras, very fast movement speed + burrow movement, and last but not least neural parasite which can effectively remove every lategame unit from the protoss army.
Yea, I'm kind of glad they got a nerf. Even if it's small I'll still take it.
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Hmm...
Immortal change will make people use more immortals, so that should be ok.
Mothership change is great, cuz the lag is just too obvious for the opponent.
stalker change is to nerf Huk. (But with chrono boost it's going to only increase 2 more seconds of research time, so not a big change.)
Warp prism: FINALLY!
Hellions: the reaction of MLG Anehiem.
Seeker missle useful for high level play, will make lower level players really angry.
infestor: being a zerg player i say that's bad. (bias)
Overseer is a good change, don't get why contamination cost sooooo much now though.
Ultralisk: FINALLY, cuz i always feel ultralisks takes forever to build, and i see many people die because it was building.
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On August 26 2011 01:35 NemesysTV wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 01:28 NemesysTV wrote:What does this mean When a building is canceled or salvaged the minerals returned will be displayed at the building location for the owner, for enemy players a floating text will be displayed.
Did you play the campaign? Remember when you picked up some gas/minerals on the map and a number popped up showing how much you got? Just like that. It lets the opponent and spectators know if a building was cancelled/salvaged or killed. Wouldnt that help all ins too much to know when to attack when ur opponent is trying to move out?
I don't imagine you'll see it through fog, that would be really dumb of them.
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Well like just about everybody else I think the changes look interesting, except for the barracks build time change. There is absolutely no reason to nerf barracks build time. Tosses can already hold off 3 rax builds with a 1 gate FE on the larger maps, and zergs already know how to handle a 2 rax. I guess they just want T's to get annoyed that we have idle CC time waiting to upgrade to orbital?
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On August 26 2011 01:18 Revelatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:10 The_Sanjuro wrote:
All Terrans hate this patch. I wish the raven would be buffed a little bit more than just a faster seeker missile. I would of been happy with the energy being reduced down to 75 and do 75 damage instead of 100. All other races have an awesome spell caster(Infestor, HT) that do insane damage. If Raven seeker missle was 75 energy it would balance the spell casters out a bit. Ghost just arent cutting it anymore. Ghosts not cutting it? You have a unit that can do INSTANT 100 AOE damage to an entire race compared to HT's 80 damage over time, which most of the time is partially dodged. And... You're whining about not having a good damage spell? And don't get me started on Snipe and the ability to cloak. And being tier 2 vs tier 3 (same with Infestor).
Like all Protosses bitching about emp you forgot to use your brain.
EMP doesnt kill. It removes 100 shields. No shields=no damage. Also, zealots dont even have 100 shields in the first place. If you cast 100 EMPs on a single Zealot he will lose 33,3% of his overall hitpoints AT BEST. The emps dont do any harm if there were some marines shoting before they did hit.
Imagine marines being immune to storm once they lost 18 hitpoints. You shouldnt have any problems with that because thats pretty much how emp works.
Terran units also have much less hitpoints and smaller collision radius than protoss units. Storm hurts much more than EMP.
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On August 26 2011 01:21 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:18 JDub wrote:On August 26 2011 00:59 Get.Midikem wrote:
Well the bfh change is the best change ever. Now they wont own every scv and drone in no time. Imortal change will make roaches a unit never used. But nice patch. I like it. +1 range to an immortal doesn't make that much of a difference against roaches. The immortals could hit the roaches anyway. Maybe they'll get another shot off in an engagement. You clearly don't play Protoss, wondering whether you loaded up BW by mistake when your retarded immortal shoots *nothing* in the entire fucking fight because its range sucks. Disregarding your disrespect (tone and offensive language), when I attack into a Protoss army with roaches, I'm trying to get my roaches as close as possible to the Protoss forces -- all the enemy stalkers and immortals are generally in range as I engage. Otherwise I will be getting force-fielded and my roaches do nothing anyway. The guy I was quoting said that roaches would be "a unit never used" after the patch, and I can safely say that what he was saying was ridiculous, and you'll still see a whole ton of roaches in ZvP (at least from me).
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On August 26 2011 01:35 NemesysTV wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 01:28 NemesysTV wrote:What does this mean When a building is canceled or salvaged the minerals returned will be displayed at the building location for the owner, for enemy players a floating text will be displayed.
Did you play the campaign? Remember when you picked up some gas/minerals on the map and a number popped up showing how much you got? Just like that. It lets the opponent and spectators know if a building was cancelled/salvaged or killed. Wouldnt that help all ins too much to know when to attack when ur opponent is trying to move out?
Lol its hidden by the fog of war man, you'd only see it if you forced that salvage/cancel
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Remember that most of these changes are probably not final as they test loads of dumb stuff on the PTR that never makes it out to live. About the patch, I think the 1 less range on highground is interresting. Will probably make it harder to snipe stuff from the low ground, and perhaps 4gateallins will be less effective in PvP. Also alittle interrested how 1gaterobo expand will work in PvP as you get better immportals, and you don't get enemy stalkers blinking into your main as fast.
Anyone know if this also affect collossi, as they already can see ontop?
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Yes roaches are not going out of style, I believe 4 roaches (300/100) beat an immortal (250/100).. and the immortal is like a super hard hard counter to counter to not only armored units but also high burst damage units (hardened shields), both of which apply to roaches. Just shows how important force field is to really use the extra range on stalkers/immortals.
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On August 26 2011 01:39 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:21 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 01:18 JDub wrote:On August 26 2011 00:59 Get.Midikem wrote:
Well the bfh change is the best change ever. Now they wont own every scv and drone in no time. Imortal change will make roaches a unit never used. But nice patch. I like it. +1 range to an immortal doesn't make that much of a difference against roaches. The immortals could hit the roaches anyway. Maybe they'll get another shot off in an engagement. You clearly don't play Protoss, wondering whether you loaded up BW by mistake when your retarded immortal shoots *nothing* in the entire fucking fight because its range sucks. Disregarding your disrespect (tone and offensive language),
The disrespect was to the immortal to be clear =) They piss me off like goons did in BW.
when I attack into a Protoss army with roaches, I'm trying to get my roaches as close as possible to the Protoss forces -- all the enemy stalkers and immortals are generally in range as I engage. Otherwise I will be getting force-fielded and my roaches do nothing anyway. The guy I was quoting said that roaches would be "a unit never used" after the patch, and I can safely say that what he was saying was ridiculous, and you'll still see a whole ton of roaches in ZvP (at least from me).
As a toss player I naturally concentrate on the toss side of battles, and they - like me - almost always have great trouble with their immortals waddling around behind the stalkers, not shooting. With the same range as stalkers now, this problem is gone.
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On August 26 2011 01:22 moregamethanSEGA wrote:As a terran player this patch makes my blood boil, and here are my reasons why: 1 - + Show Spoiler +nobody can get a raven close enough to an enemy unit use the seeker missle so who care how fast it moves? hey blizzard, here an idea, how bout you increase the range (to 7) of the spell OR the speed of the raven (to 2.75). I mean, something in the terran air armada needs be able to retreat). So dont piss in my pocket and tell me its raining - the raven still sucks and is unusable. Instead of the medivac upgrade WHICH NO ONE USES, give the raven a speed/invisibility upgrade for pete's sake. 2- + Show Spoiler +barracks nerf literally makes no sense. let me repeat: this actually doesn't make sense to nerf the building time - thus slowing down all tech for terran (factory, starport). i didnt realize the 11/11 rax vs zerg was this imba that now I have to worry about getting 6 pooled every game now outside of 1v1s. someone needs to explain why this change was made. workers harrass me while i build the barracks every game anyhow so I'm already losing minerals cause I have to send another worker off the line as is - why must you make it so painful for terrans to just make their first non-worker unit? 3 - + Show Spoiler +the blue flame nerf is excessive without a doubt (50% nerf). now it can't two shot marines or scvs. now i have to reseach +1 for that? really blizzard? when a unit becomes popular you make it worthless? why would i even research that upgrade now for +5 damage (ONLY vs light). i didnt realize hellions were that good (oh wait they are not). it called make stalkers and roaches (which is the standard anyhow for those races)... and now lings with speed can easily own hellons (which was the whole point of the fracking unit/upgrade). Oh and if you didnt know, now banelings REALLY own hellons. 4 - + Show Spoiler +Ultralisk build time buff is unbelievable. 55 secs for tier 3 units... enough said. ultra now fastest tier 3 unit to make (not to mention you can make multiple at a time as zerg. ultra make faster than bc, thor, banshee, raven. - really? REALLY? I dont care how long it takes to get hive this messes up multiplayer in big way. 5 - + Show Spoiler +overseer cost reduced is acceptable BUT given the relativity of each races detector, the raven costs too much in comparision. yeah, its abilites are nice, but you have to upgrade the crap out of it (im sorry but turret ability is worthless 99% of time. so basically i have to pay almost 4 times as much in gas (and even more in minerals) as any other race for the same thing, effectively - plus i have to tech to starport with a techlab? this just doesn't make sense to me in any way, shape, or form. the raven is also the slowest of all detectors and is most fragile given it is both slow and not invisible - therefore its not even useful AT ALL for scouting.
1) Use your imagination: We've seen Players just Upgrade HSM for like 1 or 2 Ravens and waiting for the Zergs Mutas to try and snipe it or a Tank thats nearby - then fire the HSM and charge in with stimmed Marines: The Mutas will have to retreat, may even get hit by the HSM and take DMG from Marines+Thors etc. You can basically use HSM against any Army that's charging towards your Army and force them to retreat and with Stimmed Marines being really fast and having extremely high DPS, Wit Marauders slowing, Tanks having enormous high range etc. running into a Terran Army just to retreat is basically suicide.
2) 2 rax pressure on many maps is just too good against Zerg and there's almost no way to punish the Terran for being that aggressive - totally justified change.
3) BF-Nerf matters against Zerglings and worker only, when you are attacking with 2... As soon as you have 3 or more, which is very often the case, the nerf won't matter at all. Also, ppl like TLO just skipped BF and got an early +2 Vehicle DMG, which will do the trick as well. Think for a second before you whine about a change plz.
4) The Ultra build-time was ridiculously long and Ultras will still be heavily underpowered, at least now you can actually make them without getting owned during the time they take to spawn...
5) ??? Terran has Scans as well, at like 4 minutes into the game... Zerg needs freaking T2 to have non-static detection... Ever played SC:BW? Overlords had detect by default and still stuff like DT's and cloaked Wraiths etc. were used with great success... Also, Terran has enough stuff that costs too less Gas for it's functionality, like the Ghosts, which costs as much gas as minerals and is a caster.... -.-°
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On August 26 2011 01:35 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:21 kickinhead wrote:On August 26 2011 00:48 plated.rawr wrote:
I don't understand the fungal growth change. Its power does not lie in its one-shot lethality, but rather in its ease of reapplication after the first cast. Marginally reducing the damage does nothing to change this, so it's a silly change.
Increased ranged on immortals sounds painful for roaches.
Blue flame change makes the upgrade overpriced, but I agree the damage nerf is justified.
Other than that, the rest looks decent enough. There is one thing I don't like about the Fungal Change and the Blue Flame-Change: it's a pretty race-specific nerf. Take Fungal for example: I really don't mind the slight nerf against Marines, cuz it will be still very strong and Infestor+Broodlords will still be viable against Vikings etc. But Against Protoss, there is really no reason to nerf Fungal IMHO.Same is true for Blue Flame: It's ridiculously overpowered against Zerg and even though it's also very good against Workers of every race, BF-Hellions are really underused in TvP and I don't think a nerf against Zealots is really needed. That will just make Mech an even less viable option against Protoss... I also think that Blue Flame is by design a "bad" Upgrade for the game, cuz it puts the Hellion, which is very strong against light Units, even without the Upgrade, in an even bigger niche and therefore makes it a very counter-oriented Unit that by design can be countered easily by just not making light Units. Why not give them +5 against light and +5 against Armored or sth.? Or just get rid of the Upgrade and give the Hellion sth. else, like spidermines. I also don't think that -5 against light is that big of a deal tbh - you just need 1 more Hellion to 2shot Workers and with 4 Hellions being able to fit into a Dropship and with them being able to get pumped out by reactors, that really doesn't matter against Zerg and worker, but really matters against Protoss, which is exactly the opposite of what they should go for in balancing the Hellion... Why not tackle the Hellion-Problem from another angle, like reducing the AoE, rate of fire, make the building-time higher or anything like that? Maybe even a reactor-nerf would be a decent solution to both the hellion-Problem and the Marines, that are still incredibly powerful. Just make the reactor more expensive or build slower or sth. like that. Let me guess, you play zerg? I think the popular opinion is that infestors are way to useful/all around good right now. Fungal does insane damage, infested terrans do more dps than hydras, very fast movement speed + burrow movement, and last but not least neural parasite which can effectively remove every lategame unit from the protoss army. Yea, I'm kind of glad they got a nerf. Even if it's small I'll still take it.
Yeah, because you can't target down Infestors that use NP with your Colossi, you can't feedback them, you can't EMP them. Instead you're gonna make excuses for your own poor micro. Riighhtt.
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On August 26 2011 01:39 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:18 Revelatus wrote:On August 26 2011 01:10 The_Sanjuro wrote:
All Terrans hate this patch. I wish the raven would be buffed a little bit more than just a faster seeker missile. I would of been happy with the energy being reduced down to 75 and do 75 damage instead of 100. All other races have an awesome spell caster(Infestor, HT) that do insane damage. If Raven seeker missle was 75 energy it would balance the spell casters out a bit. Ghost just arent cutting it anymore. Ghosts not cutting it? You have a unit that can do INSTANT 100 AOE damage to an entire race compared to HT's 80 damage over time, which most of the time is partially dodged. And... You're whining about not having a good damage spell? And don't get me started on Snipe and the ability to cloak. And being tier 2 vs tier 3 (same with Infestor). Like all Protosses bitching about emp you forgot to use your brain. EMP doesnt kill. It removes 100 shields. No shields=no damage. Also, zealots dont even have 100 shields in the first place. If you cast 100 EMPs on a single Zealot he will lose 33,3% of his overall hitpoints AT BEST. The emps dont do any harm if there were some marines shoting before they did hit. Imagine marines being immune to storm once they lost 18 hitpoints. You shouldnt have any problems with that because thats pretty much how emp works. Terran units also have much less hitpoints and smaller collision radius than protoss units. Storm hurts much more than EMP.
You completely disregarded how EMP removes energy.
Kinda relevant.
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On August 26 2011 01:43 kickinhead wrote:
5) ??? Terran has Scans as well, at like 4 minutes into the game... Zerg needs freaking T2 to have non-static detection... Ever played SC:BW? Overlords had detect by default and still stuff like DT's and cloaked Wraiths etc. were used with great success... Also, Terran has enough stuff that costs too less Gas for it's functionality, like the Ghosts, which costs as much gas as minerals and is a caster.... -.-°
Actually, Blizz changed ghost cost to 200/100, so the gas cost is only half the minerals.
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Interesting how the nerf terran and buff the op protoss.
The BFH nerf is sad, but as terran is my best race i guess needing an extra shot on a worker wont be to bad as theres normally 4 in a drop anyway.
Glad im playing random recently so i can use the buffs on protoss and late game ultras ftw
EDIT: I like the warp prisim upgrade as they were way to fragile for any risks to be taken
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Blink research increase, to give more time for Z to get infestors out? Or just a general nerf because they're powerful, and shouldn't be popping around so quickly?
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Overseer's Contaminate would KILL zergs in ladder. 3 overseer contaminates in a row = no larvae at ur disposal. On the other hand, a full 30 seconds for blink upgrade? :\
PvP will now only be based on 2gate robos!
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On August 26 2011 01:45 Condor Hero wrote:
You completely disregarded how EMP removes energy.
Kinda relevant.
He disregarded a lot of things. Whether EMP>Storm or not is completely opinion, since they have different abilities and functions, and too many people spout their own bull announcing it as absolute truth. Even those people who put out horribly biased posts with just an "IMHO" at the start to justify it are better than kinds of posts like the one you quoted.
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On August 26 2011 01:43 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:22 moregamethanSEGA wrote:As a terran player this patch makes my blood boil, and here are my reasons why: 1 - + Show Spoiler +nobody can get a raven close enough to an enemy unit use the seeker missle so who care how fast it moves? hey blizzard, here an idea, how bout you increase the range (to 7) of the spell OR the speed of the raven (to 2.75). I mean, something in the terran air armada needs be able to retreat). So dont piss in my pocket and tell me its raining - the raven still sucks and is unusable. Instead of the medivac upgrade WHICH NO ONE USES, give the raven a speed/invisibility upgrade for pete's sake. 2- + Show Spoiler +barracks nerf literally makes no sense. let me repeat: this actually doesn't make sense to nerf the building time - thus slowing down all tech for terran (factory, starport). i didnt realize the 11/11 rax vs zerg was this imba that now I have to worry about getting 6 pooled every game now outside of 1v1s. someone needs to explain why this change was made. workers harrass me while i build the barracks every game anyhow so I'm already losing minerals cause I have to send another worker off the line as is - why must you make it so painful for terrans to just make their first non-worker unit? 3 - + Show Spoiler +the blue flame nerf is excessive without a doubt (50% nerf). now it can't two shot marines or scvs. now i have to reseach +1 for that? really blizzard? when a unit becomes popular you make it worthless? why would i even research that upgrade now for +5 damage (ONLY vs light). i didnt realize hellions were that good (oh wait they are not). it called make stalkers and roaches (which is the standard anyhow for those races)... and now lings with speed can easily own hellons (which was the whole point of the fracking unit/upgrade). Oh and if you didnt know, now banelings REALLY own hellons. 4 - + Show Spoiler +Ultralisk build time buff is unbelievable. 55 secs for tier 3 units... enough said. ultra now fastest tier 3 unit to make (not to mention you can make multiple at a time as zerg. ultra make faster than bc, thor, banshee, raven. - really? REALLY? I dont care how long it takes to get hive this messes up multiplayer in big way. 5 - + Show Spoiler +overseer cost reduced is acceptable BUT given the relativity of each races detector, the raven costs too much in comparision. yeah, its abilites are nice, but you have to upgrade the crap out of it (im sorry but turret ability is worthless 99% of time. so basically i have to pay almost 4 times as much in gas (and even more in minerals) as any other race for the same thing, effectively - plus i have to tech to starport with a techlab? this just doesn't make sense to me in any way, shape, or form. the raven is also the slowest of all detectors and is most fragile given it is both slow and not invisible - therefore its not even useful AT ALL for scouting. 1) Use your imagination: We've seen Players just Upgrade HSM for like 1 or 2 Ravens and waiting for the Zergs Mutas to try and snipe it or a Tank thats nearby - then fire the HSM and charge in with stimmed Marines: The Mutas will have to retreat, may even get hit by the HSM and take DMG from Marines+Thors etc. You can basically use HSM against any Army that's charging towards your Army and force them to retreat and with Stimmed Marines being really fast and having extremely high DPS, Wit Marauders slowing, Tanks having enormous high range etc. running into a Terran Army just to retreat is basically suicide. 2) 2 rax pressure on many maps is just too good against Zerg and there's almost no way to punish the Terran for being that aggressive - totally justified change. 3) BF-Nerf matters against Zerglings and worker only, when you are attacking with 2... As soon as you have 3 or more, which is very often the case, the nerf won't matter at all. Also, ppl like TLO just skipped BF and got an early +2 Vehicle DMG, which will do the trick as well. Think for a second before you whine about a change plz. 4) The Ultra build-time was ridiculously long and Ultras will still be heavily underpowered, at least now you can actually make them without getting owned during the time they take to spawn... 5) ??? Terran has Scans as well, at like 4 minutes into the game... Zerg needs freaking T2 to have non-static detection... Ever played SC:BW? Overlords had detect by default and still stuff like DT's and cloaked Wraiths etc. were used with great success... Also, Terran has enough stuff that costs too less Gas for it's functionality, like the Ghosts, which costs as much gas as minerals and is a caster.... -.-°
Iagree with everything you said except about the barracks change being necessary because it is completely unnecessary. Its not going to get passed the PTR
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What I want to see as well is carrier buff. You don't see any of those units anymore. 
Thoughts?
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EPT
