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There's no way a late game protoss army can beat a Zerg late game army with infestors. It just doesn't happen... How do you combat this?
The zerg goes zergling, ultralisk and infestor. If you go immortal you will die to zerglings and if you go colossus you will die to ultralisk. You can't go both because they are both super expensive units.
There's also no way to attack early game because he builds like 4 spines which combined with lings will kill you.
You can't out macro him because Zerg's mechanics allow him to build 16 drones at once while we can only make 2-3.
I honestly think this style is a bit unbeatable.. HuK lost against Destiny even though HuK is a Code S player who has taken games off of the best koreans on the ladder.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?d8drj0mrw7tibo2
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Code S player loses to unorthodox Zerg style, therefore style is unbeatable. I like your logic bra
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On August 16 2011 07:42 Kluey wrote:You can't go both because they are both super expensive units.
and infestor ultralisk is so cheap...
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It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg.
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Maybe you could submit a replay of yourself losing to it so we can give you advice rather than making wild claims about it being unbeatable?
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On August 16 2011 07:46 UnholyGregor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:42 Kluey wrote:You can't go both because they are both super expensive units.
and infestor ultralisk is so cheap...
Zerglings are dirt cheap and only cost minerals, infestors can come from all the gas.. If you're winning in the mid game that will dictate the late game and you're going to have a ton of bases and suddenly, ultralisks, infestors and zergligns are free.
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Zergs finally get a unit comp that can handle P late game, what happens?... Protoss cry out "Imba! nerf!!!" lolz....
Also... from another thread titled [Q] How to deal with ling/infestor/brood as toss?
" Kluey Canada. July 10 2011 06:26. Posts 185 PM Profile Quote #
Don't let him get there because i'm pretty sure that army beats any army in the game. I also found that before the broodlords, High Templars DOMINATE with feedback and storm. Also, archons are good after the energy is finished. "
you answered your own question :D
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This post is full on retard.
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On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg.
Here's some ideas:
http://replayfu.com/download/c4zn8h
Lots of mistakes on both sides (esp. mine due to not realizing fungals don't ping the minimap, lol....), but the matchup is far more manageable than whiny protoss would have you believe.
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Er... speedprism + high templar? Who knows? It's beatable... we just haven't found a way to beat it yet! Seeing as muta's're going to rape face in ZvZ via spreading.... Take away fungal's rooting of air units? (It never really made any sense....)
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On August 16 2011 07:48 Thugtronik wrote:
Maybe you could submit a replay of yourself losing to it so we can give you advice rather than making wild claims about it being unbeatable?
Uploaded a replay.
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if you like, build units and use FF well, then its really not gonna be an issue. Ive done it plenty of times and its been walked all over. Also, if you go templar and I go infestors, its practically an auto loss unless i have banes to crash into everything <3
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On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg.
How does it take more from the protoss? If you are not comfortable with feedback, then use storm? Or blink stalkers to pick off infestors before they are in range. Cannons at bases for detection? Phoenix? Spread your units so they wont get all affected by a single fungal?
There's a lot of options. Infestors are far from cheap, and it takes a lot of micro from the zerg to use efficiently. The worst thing you can do is sit back in your base and wait for 160 food, and push out in a big ball.
On a side note the op was pretty lacking in terms with strategy forum standards.
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On August 16 2011 07:42 Kluey wrote:
There's no way a late game protoss army can beat a Zerg late game army with infestors. It just doesn't happen... How do you combat this?
ROFL!
Okey to start off with for everyone ZvP was much harder for zerg before the infestor buff than what protoss is facing now. Protoss actually has an answer and needs to stop whining because HT is just an obvious response when one feedback can kill one infestor or render it useless and one HT can kill 4 infestors. HTs are also a cheaper unit and you only need one storm to make zerglings useless.
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On August 16 2011 07:52 vVvTime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg. Here's some ideas: http://replayfu.com/download/c4zn8hLots of mistakes on both sides (esp. mine due to not realizing fungals don't ping the minimap, lol....), but the matchup is far more manageable than whiny protoss would have you believe.
The protoss lost..
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Seems it comes down to micro once every tech is opened up for both races. Upload a replay so people can offer suggestions otherwise this just seems like whining.
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On August 16 2011 08:00 Kluey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:52 vVvTime wrote:On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg. Here's some ideas: http://replayfu.com/download/c4zn8hLots of mistakes on both sides (esp. mine due to not realizing fungals don't ping the minimap, lol....), but the matchup is far more manageable than whiny protoss would have you believe. The protoss lost..
The point was that it's manageable, even after completely failing a push, losing all collossi to neurals stupidly, and the game was still fine if I had cannons to stop the infestor drops.
Anyway, you lost because mutas killed half of your probes, not because of infestors.
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when a zerg is doing this ling/infestor/ultra or broodlord style, the counter is
camping on 3 base
getting mix of colossi + ht + archon + stalker+ some zealots for meatshields
that composition destroys when micro'd correctly
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When Infestor Broodlord is flat out, unequivocally is the best lategame Zerg composition in every single matchup, you know there is a problem.
ZvZ: Counter to Infestor Broodlord is Infestor Broodlord + Corrupter (They are basically the same unit, though)
TvZ: I don't pay as much attention to this matchup, but from my experience if you throw in a few banelings Terrans going to go through hell no matter what unit he makes
For Protoss, you basically have to hope Zerg screws up. When Destiny (An OK-ish player at best) can beat players like HuK and MC, I mean, come on, seriously, the facts and statistics speak for themselves.
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Most protoss players like to have their army like this:
--------------X--------------
---------- X X X-------------
--------X X X X X------------
---------- X X X-------------
--------------X-------------
Keeping your army in a conclave when infestors are out reduces the damage your army takes from fungal a lot.
Like terrans keep their army in conclave when protoss has storm.
I'm sure I saw HuK doing this @ Na regionals against that Gosu(something) zerg
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On August 16 2011 07:45 Thugtronik wrote:
Code S player loses to unorthodox Zerg style, therefore style is unbeatable. I like your logic bra
It's no longer unorthodox. A LOT of people are doing this now on ladder.
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I like the parts where people say HT's dominate Infesters.
I guess they don't realise that FG outranges feedback...
- FG is range 9, with radius of 2 (11), feedback is range 9.
- A unit that is given an action (Say to cast storm/feedback), then is affected by FG, has it's action cancelled.
- FG is gaurenteed damage 36/47 (base/armoured) , storm has a delay before it deals damage - and does 80 if you sit under it for 3 seconds.
- Templars are slower than Infesters. Infester can burrow. Infesters can move while burrowed.
- FG does not friendly fire. Storm does.
- NP is a projectile, but the mana is consumed before the enemy unit is stolen. This leaves the infester with a maximum of 50 energy. Feedback won't kill it - even if you're fast enough to Feedback the infester that is casting NP before the NP actually 'hits' your unit.
- FG reveals cloaked units. (So does EMP for that matter).
- FG traps air units. Phoenix need to stack by nature (when attempting to kill ground units).
- FG prevents retreating of your entire army (read: you will never be able to retreat with your entire army). If you move out to apply pressure vs infester builds, be ready to go all-in with your army - or lose part of it when retreating.
- FG doesn't give notification (unit voices, or minimap pings) when cast against you. (E.g FG on your workers).
HT's are good, if the zerg is slow at FG (i.e. doesnt make use of his 2range advantage).
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ROFL.
Zealot/archon destroys ling/infestor/ultra.
HTs can 1 shot multiple infestors.
Seriously, all infestors are doing is forcing Protoss players not to clump up their army on one hotkey, which is still what a lot of them do.
Watch Huk with his warp prism play with HTs and how good he is at spreading his units.
Pretty sure HuK still won this series against Destiny anyway, people are going way too crazy over just a few games.
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On August 16 2011 07:50 justindab0mb wrote:
Zergs finally get a unit comp that can handle P late game, what happens?... Protoss cry out "Imba! nerf!!!" lolz....
wow I mean this thread is kind of stupid but this post is completely clueless. Protoss have a difficult time getting to late game because of their mechanics, it's hard to build up that deathball. It's much faster for a zerg to drone up and get his death ball, hence the classical view of "zergs should try to trade armies with protoss".
Protoss SHOULD (and do) have the better late game, because they can't do counter-attacks efficiently and can't do drops, they are immobile and struggle to pull through to the late game. IF per-say zerg's late game units became as powerful as Protoss' it would be incredibly overpowered. But they don't, that's besides the point, your comment is invalid.
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On August 16 2011 07:52 vVvTime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg. Here's some ideas: http://replayfu.com/download/c4zn8hLots of mistakes on both sides (esp. mine due to not realizing fungals don't ping the minimap, lol....), but the matchup is far more manageable than whiny protoss would have you believe.
You lost 129 workers there and died in a final push with the zerg having almost 100 food over you (with infestor roach ofcourse). Not to sound like a douche but maybe you have a higher tolerance for whining? But come on, let some of us vent.
Not to say there weren't ideas in the replay or anything. Archon zealot + other gateway units is nice, but I think the zerg was a little slow with his roach warren. And the big battles were handled as well as any protoss could manage imo. Funny how you didn't go for the mass HT that some zerg are suggesting.
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On August 16 2011 08:14 Trusty wrote:
- FG prevents retreating of your entire army (read: you will never be able to retreat with your entire army). If you move out to apply pressure vs infester builds, be ready to go all-in with your army - or lose part of it when retreating.
Now you know how the Zerg feel about forcefield!
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clearly not true since destiny has gotten knocked out of MLG in the past few events in the first few rounds.
not to knock on his skill or anything, but results speak for themselves.
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On August 16 2011 08:14 Trusty wrote:
- FG is range 9, with radius of 2 (11), feedback is range 9.
And zerg ground army sight is 10. HT one shots infestor. Doesn't sounds like a impossible mission really.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 16 2011 08:25 Dman wrote:
Now you know how the Zerg feel about forcefield!
Haha, good point!
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have you tried mass carrier? carrier's outrange everything and they cost about as much gas as infestors and ultras anyway.
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On August 16 2011 08:29 zezamer wrote:
And zerg ground army sight is 10. HT one shots infestor. Doesn't sounds like a impossible mission really.
Infesters & HT's are not going to be at the front of the army, bar maybe 1 or 2 trying to snipe stuff (which is still a range adv to Infester).
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On August 16 2011 08:23 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:52 vVvTime wrote:On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg. Here's some ideas: http://replayfu.com/download/c4zn8hLots of mistakes on both sides (esp. mine due to not realizing fungals don't ping the minimap, lol....), but the matchup is far more manageable than whiny protoss would have you believe. You lost 129 workers there and died in a final push with the zerg having almost 100 food over you (with infestor roach ofcourse). Not to sound like a douche but maybe you have a higher tolerance for whining? But come on, let some of us vent. Not to say there weren't ideas in the replay or anything. Archon zealot + other gateway units is nice, but I think the zerg was a little slow with his roach warren. And the big battles were handled as well as any protoss could manage imo. Funny how you didn't go for the mass HT that some zerg are suggesting.
Well that's exactly the point. When I lose 129 probes because I don't realize that fungals don't ping the minimap I don't whine as if it's not my own fault for losing. It's fine if you want to whine to your friend on mumble or in a blog post, but that's not what the strategy forum is for.
I also am not a diamond player who acts as if he's losing because there was nothing he could do (lol? then how come me and every other high masters protoss would crush the same zerg, I mean come on...), nor think that I can't learn something from a replay of a better player than myself even if they lost.
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On August 16 2011 08:31 Selendis wrote:
have you tried mass carrier? carrier's outrange everything and they cost about as much gas as infestors and ultras anyway.
Carrier's engage at range 8, NP is range 9.
Carriers can retreat and continue fighting up to range 14, but they still need to come into NP range to engage.
With Graviton Catapult (Upgrade to make carriers launch interceptors faster) - You can kill an Infester in one volley, if you have a +1 attack advantage - before the NP 'hits' your carrier.
Regardless, you're going to have less carriers than he has infesters......
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I have to agree with time and Minigun. Ling infestor is good but certainly not OP. You have to really be on top of scouting and multitasking to keep up with a zerg making that many zerglings. I would suggest you get blink the sooner the better. Then, you can add in a robo or storm. Or both. Just depends on what you are scouting.. but I think blink is safest most robust thing you can do. +weapons is also very good for stalkers.
edit LOL Time funny ^^
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On August 16 2011 08:14 Trusty wrote:
I like the parts where people say HT's dominate Infesters.
I guess they don't realise that FG outranges feedback...
- FG is range 9, with radius of 2 (11), feedback is range 9.
HT's are good, if the zerg is slow at FG (i.e. doesnt make use of his 2range advantage).
The 2 range advantage from the Fungal's radius shouldn't ever be able to snag all of your high templars in that little arc of "extra range" and swing the battle alone. You can't seriously make that out to be the deciding factor any battle between armies that have spellcasters. That's just not realistic. Also, 2 extra range with a 4sec ensnare effect and an instant kill (or no energy, which is as good as dead in an engagement, which also lasts for quite some time afterwards) with shorter range seems to be a pretty fair tradeoff.
In general, I never understand the complaints about these two units against each other... Honestly, high templar are frustrating if the Protoss player is better than you at micro OR catches you in a great engagement. Similarly, infestors are extremely annoying if the zerg is better than you at micro OR catches you in a great engagement.
They're very comparable units with pros/cons each. Basically, there's no easy answer to beating them on either side. Spreading your spellcasters and quickly casting your initial spells is pretty vital when the clash between armies happens. A good concave is the best advice I know or have seen in these thread. Good positioning lowers the effectiveness of fungal and storm each.
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On August 16 2011 08:33 vVvTime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 08:23 Xahhk wrote:On August 16 2011 07:52 vVvTime wrote:On August 16 2011 07:47 Kluey wrote:
It's not even that anymore. Every single Zerg player uses it on ladder.. HuK knew that Destiny was going to do infestor play and even got templars for feedback. Still lost..
I'm just looking for a way to beat it even if it takes more from the protoss than it does from the zerg. Here's some ideas: http://replayfu.com/download/c4zn8hLots of mistakes on both sides (esp. mine due to not realizing fungals don't ping the minimap, lol....), but the matchup is far more manageable than whiny protoss would have you believe. You lost 129 workers there and died in a final push with the zerg having almost 100 food over you (with infestor roach ofcourse). Not to sound like a douche but maybe you have a higher tolerance for whining? But come on, let some of us vent. Not to say there weren't ideas in the replay or anything. Archon zealot + other gateway units is nice, but I think the zerg was a little slow with his roach warren. And the big battles were handled as well as any protoss could manage imo. Funny how you didn't go for the mass HT that some zerg are suggesting. Well that's exactly the point. When I lose 129 probes because I don't realize that fungals don't ping the minimap I don't whine as if it's not my own fault for losing. It's fine if you want to whine to your friend on mumble or in a blog post, but that's not what the strategy forum is for. I also am not a diamond player who acts as if he's losing because there was nothing he could do (lol? then how come me and every other high masters protoss would crush the same zerg, I mean come on...), nor think that I can't learn something from a replay of a better player than myself even if they lost.
I guess I came off too hostile. I never said that there's nothing to learn from a replay of people who play at a high level, and you admit mistakes on both sides anyway. Also it's not like I think posts like the OP are quality material or anything but as long as this titanic still floats I thought I'd put my piece in.
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On August 16 2011 08:29 dreamsmasher wrote:
clearly not true since destiny has gotten knocked out of MLG in the past few events in the first few rounds.
not to knock on his skill or anything, but results speak for themselves.
Destiny has been shown to crumble when someone aptly attack with a timing before his infestors pop. MLG was a ton of early timing attacks...
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I don't know, I just fungal and NP everything now :p. Along with upgraded lings or a roach army to buffer, it's pretty tough to get to the infestors without losing everything.
It really does a great job of stopping any harass by protoss. It also severely punishes any mistake by protoss unit movement. One slip up, and that portion of your army is never escaping. Gives you tremendous threat of ling counters, since you have so many. Is there any composition that infestors don't work great against? You can supplement your main army with them, they can actually be your main army, you can seige a player's base with them, they're great for probe harass, they're great for map control.
It's basically all purpose, and I don't know have to worry about tech switches by protoss. There's pretty much no army can catch me off guard, so I do think zergs going this style have it made right now.
I'll assume whatever Minigun says is correct, but for diamond to masters players in the current metagame, it's often a pretty easy game for zerg once you get to infestors. Who knows, maybe protoss will discover timing vulnerabilities, and other weak points, but for now I feel pretty confident in my zvp, which is pretty much a 180 from 6 months ago  .
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Also, got to give idra, and other zergs (and other non-zerg players) credit, who said the infestor change was a ridiculous buff against protoss.
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Gotta stop playing Starcraft 2 I guess, dammit ... unbeatable, the ultimate strategy, how could one possibly not win with the Infestor ... maybe, just maybe we need to switch to freetetris.org
-.-
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On August 16 2011 08:40 Ninety-Three wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The 2 range advantage from the Fungal's radius shouldn't ever be able to snag all of your high templars in that little arc of "extra range" and swing the battle alone. You can't seriously make that out to be the deciding factor any battle between armies that have spellcasters. That's just not realistic. Also, 2 extra range with a 4sec ensnare effect and an instant kill (or no energy, which is as good as dead in an engagement, which also lasts for quite some time afterwards) with shorter range seems to be a pretty fair tradeoff.
In general, I never understand the complaints about these two units against each other... Honestly, high templar are frustrating if the Protoss player is better than you at micro OR catches you in a great engagement. Similarly, infestors are extremely annoying if the zerg is better than you at micro OR catches you in a great engagement.
They're very comparable units with pros/cons each. Basically, there's no easy answer to beating them on either side. Spreading your spellcasters and quickly casting your initial spells is pretty vital when the clash between armies happens. A good concave is the best advice I know or have seen in these thread. Good positioning lowers the effectiveness of fungal and storm each.
Sure, you can break it down like that - but in a situation of two equally HIGHLY skilled players, the infester user has an advantage.
Not saying it's OP, not crying about it - just saying the infester user has an advantage, which I tried to outline through facts.
I'm pretty much trying to show the people who say 'herp derp just get HT and feedback!' why that's not the case at peak levels of play - its not an un-winnable situation, but if you're relying on HT's to combat infesters (without anything else, like Phoenix or Collosus) then you're at a disadvantage.
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Exactly what minigun said.
About a week ago destiny played a few games with Combatex who is actually a decent player despite what trash he talks. While on the stream destiny said the way was to get earlier high templars
He also said that you need an equal number or close to equal number of high templar for infestors. you cant expect 3 high templar to beat 15 infestors.
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On August 16 2011 08:21 pezzaperry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:50 justindab0mb wrote:
Zergs finally get a unit comp that can handle P late game, what happens?... Protoss cry out "Imba! nerf!!!" lolz....
wow I mean this thread is kind of stupid but this post is completely clueless. Protoss have a difficult time getting to late game because of their mechanics, it's hard to build up that deathball. It's much faster for a zerg to drone up and get his death ball, hence the classical view of "zergs should try to trade armies with protoss". Protoss SHOULD (and do) have the better late game, because they can't do counter-attacks efficiently and can't do drops, they are immobile and struggle to pull through to the late game. IF per-say zerg's late game units became as powerful as Protoss' it would be incredibly overpowered. But they don't, that's besides the point, your comment is invalid.
Yeah their mechanics are sooooo difficult -_-
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On August 16 2011 08:14 Trusty wrote:
....
- NP is a projectile, but the mana is consumed before the enemy unit is stolen. This leaves the infester with a maximum of 50 energy. Feedback won't kill it - even if you're fast enough to Feedback the infester that is casting NP before the NP actually 'hits' your unit.
....
NP is 100 energy, so you can kill infestor with feedback.
Also 1 HT can basically insta-kill 4 infestor at 9 range. That's pretty good for me.
PS: Destiny usually goes roach as he sees HTs on the field. With good protoss that's around his first 6 infetor push as he is taking 3rd and 4th. So later it's pretty much roach infestor into broodlords. Ling/ultra is just for stubborn protosses who just make colossus and stalkers.
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Destiny's ZvZ and ZvT aren't that great which is why he lost at MLG.
Anyway, I tried splitting my units and yes, it does counter the fungal. The Zerg will have to spend like twice or even more the amount of funguls but the problem is that with spread units his zerglings own my stalkers because they're all getting hit by zerglings.
Also, high templar just doesn't work.. It seems reasonable but in a real game the zerg could just send 4 zerglings over and it would kill your templars that are trynig to feedback.
Just to clear up things.. the title isn't me saying 'herpaderp infestor = 100% win'.. I just used that for lack of a better title.
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United States11393 Posts
whine threads don't belong in strat forum
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EPT
