On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
More archons more immortals more high templars
Actually, the point in which I am referencing (when the broodlords first pop out) HuK has no archons at all.
Also, I already address Destiny's composition and goal with his composition. It is a harass based poke and prod style. It isnt a brute force attack that tries to overwhelm the opponent. He ALWAYS gets 20+ infestors. And while infestors are good, and can deal huge amounts of damage... it isnt frontloaded damage in most cases. You have to engage THEN throw IT's out which means they come after a lot of your army is dead, which means you cant do anything after the fight. What MY composition does is it frontloads ALL of the damage, then you still have the heavy duty expensive long build time units in the end and reinforce with a lot more cheap and quick building ling/baneling. This means you rebuild extremely quickly and can punish afterwards.
Going back to HuK vs Destiny though, you are wrong about the archons entirely. He doesnt get archons until pretty near 31 minutes into that video. Up until that point it is the exact composition that ling/bling/ultra (+infestor) destroys.
On August 11 2011 14:43 figq wrote:You have to order your macro-comparisons straight: Macro mechanics: Chrono, Inject, Mule Production cycle: Missed warping, Unspent larvae, Empty rax/fact/port
P.S. Reading through this thread, I realized that it seems a lot of people who haven't play much zerg do not quite understand how larvae works. I'm not sure exactly how to explain, but please check for yourself how it actually works. It doesn't auto-produce itself, if unspent, and it can never be more than 19 (next round dies). Check it out, you may find it fun
Sorry, it was bad wording on my part. Inject larvae->production cycles are connected for Zerg, making the entire thing so much more complicated. Note the for unit production. Arguably, missing injects IS unspent larvae. And I'm bad at articulating my thoughts...so that's where the comparison got a little fuzzy. I agree, though, and even would go so far as to say larvae are one of the most interesting components of the game. Lucky zerg ,__,
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, no need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch]
2. I honestly can't say I'm knowledgable enough in the losses of injection/muling/chrono for seconds missed, so I won't argue that point. Yes, they cannot multi-inject like the other races can stack missed macro-mechanics. If anyone has information on this, I'd be very interested in learning.
On August 11 2011 14:39 ETisME wrote: because it isn't about spamming hotkeys to make sure the units are coming out constantly (or looking at that mini icon for warp gate cycle)
I think you should play zerg and see how it works. Unless you hotkey individual hatchery, you cannot see the larva spawn progress, meaning that every so often, you would want to do a base cycle to check how long until the larva is spawn and if you need to inject soon. Some pro will line up the injection timing but it only works with 3 bases the most (I caught this in Idra's replay), eventually most would have to throw down a macro hatchery.
attributing player mistakes to the races certainly is a thing that cannot be ignored, because no one plays perfect injection/mule/chrono in an equally skilled match. But injection is the most punishing for sure.
I'll never understand why there is that icon for warp-gate...
Base cycling is something I feel anyone should be doing anyways, because usually there's free time to do it...there's a very convenient camera hotkey to cycle through bases without even having to select them. In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? I wouldn't say it's punishing as much as encourages practice and focus.
Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote: [quote] There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
More archons more immortals more high templars
Actually, the point in which I am referencing (when the broodlords first pop out) HuK has no archons at all.
Also, I already address Destiny's composition and goal with his composition. It is a harass based poke and prod style. It isnt a brute force attack that tries to overwhelm the opponent. He ALWAYS gets 20+ infestors. And while infestors are good, and can deal huge amounts of damage... it isnt frontloaded damage in most cases. You have to engage THEN throw IT's out which means they come after a lot of your army is dead, which means you cant do anything after the fight. What MY composition does is it frontloads ALL of the damage, then you still have the heavy duty expensive long build time units in the end and reinforce with a lot more cheap and quick building ling/baneling. This means you rebuild extremely quickly and can punish afterwards.
Going back to HuK vs Destiny though, you are wrong about the archons entirely. He doesnt get archons until pretty near 31 minutes into that video. Up until that point it is the exact composition that ling/bling/ultra (+infestor) destroys.
How hard is it to understand basic logic?
destiny attacks with brood lords, ultras, infestors, zerglings against huk's army which at the time does not have enough archons.
Destiny wins the battle and still has most of his army.
HuK makes a new army composed of mostly Archons, and wins. Destiny's composition of Brood Lords and more Infestors instead of Banelings is better against Archon builds for obvious reasons.
Do you see what I'm getting at? One more retarded post and I'm just closing TL
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
Nonononononononononononononononononono. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/
On August 11 2011 15:08 ETisME wrote: Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
Excuse me? I want to be looking EVERYWHERE, ALL the time. I can't, sadly, so I compensate by looking a lot of places quickly and gathering all the information as quickly as possible. You can definitely jump through your hatcheries while being active with your units, watching your minimap, and doing other stuff.
Yeah, that's kind of why I stuck to 3 bases...past that stuff gets weird. For all races, though...though arguably Protoss might have it easiest with the choices because they only have one choice for their Nexus energy.
Er...if you want to cycle through hotkeys to check larva timer, you can. It's an option to hotkey your Hatcheries to individual hotkeys if clicking wire-frames isn't comfortable.
Practice practice practice. Speed and consistency comes with practice. There are players who can inject while microing in an engagement, it comes with practice.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, no need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
I think the other guy makes a good point though. I always equated injects with chrono and mules simply because they are all from the hatcheries/nexi/CC's.
But I see now that injects are FAR more like production cycles. They're short (only 32 seconds, which is a few more in game seconds), if you miss them you will have less units, and you can't make up for "unspent" unit cycles - same as missing injects.
Unspent larvae are more like mules and chrono, because they pile up (3 limit for natural spawning larvae, 19 limit (?) for total including inject larvae) and can be spent all in one go. This has its advantages and disadvantages - con's being the short term gain of mules and chrono is really high in comparison (and they're free), but pro's being that you can remax an army swifter than any other race, or totally resaturating multiple bases (both obviously requiring the appropriate resources, but this is normal in late game) after losing lots of harvesters. You also have the ability to macro really, really hard with appropriate scouting of the opponent and gain a huge economic lead (see Nestea/Losira vs P).
So in the end, zerg complaining about the inject mechanic would be equal to a terran complaining about having to keep up with the barracks/starport/factory production cycles, or a protoss complaining about missing their warp gate/stargate/robo cycles. Yes, due to a design flaw, you have to look at a hatchery rather than just having them all hotkeyed and being able to monitor what stage of the cycle they are at like a protoss or terran can (unless you hotkey one hatchery), but now that I think of it, zerg has less (different) production buildings to keybind than the other two races so being able to keybind a "watcher" hatchery instead of a factory/robo or stargate/starport should be no problem.
And anyway, being able to remax/redrone so quickly is damn cool.
My reason why I consider toss to be more on the easy side actually comes from a toss player out of the 'why is toss so unsuccessful lately' thread. There the toss player complained:
"If I miss 2 medivacs coming in and my warpgates are on cooldown, I cannot bring my army back before they inflict massive damage."
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Also really long drawn out games against toss are just frustrating. 20+ warpgates mean that even if you win a battle, you cannot capitalize. No matter what you try to do, there will be a gaggle of chargelots greeting you together with the 1 full mana HT who had the drop watch at whatever base I attack. As a Zerg you are fucked if they are in your base and take out your tech. As a terran you are fucked if they are on top of your production facilities with just a small contingent, because you cannot rally forces at some place. As toss you just warp in at a staging point and clear your base after 1 or 2 production cycles.
Plus toss key units are easy to use (I'm looking at you, colossus), which means most of the time micro is limited to 1 unit type (High Templar) and at least in the PvT matchup the protoss is the one dictating the composition of the terran past the mid game as the addition of vikings/ghost/medivacs is dependent on the tech the toss goes and the amount of zealots forces me to adjust the marine/marauder ratio.
Many Pro player have stated that Protoss is the "Easier" race to play. These players being among EGIncontrol, LiquidTyler, EGIdra ( ) and many others. Protoss is considered easier because the macro is simpler then other races. Also it is possible to get away with more mistakes. Also the reason people consider them to be a "1A" race is because protoss units are naturally stronger, by their nature. These are simply things I have noticed in the SC2 community.
On August 11 2011 15:33 Thrombozyt wrote: My reason why I consider toss to be more on the easy side actually comes from a toss player out of the 'why is toss so unsuccessful lately' thread. There the toss player complained:
"If I miss 2 medivacs coming in and my warpgates are on cooldown, I cannot bring my army back before they inflict massive damage."
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Also really long drawn out games against toss are just frustrating. 20+ warpgates mean that even if you win a battle, you cannot capitalize. No matter what you try to do, there will be a gaggle of chargelots greeting you together with the 1 full mana HT who had the drop watch at whatever base I attack. As a Zerg you are fucked if they are in your base and take out your tech. As a terran you are fucked if they are on top of your production facilities with just a small contingent, because you cannot rally forces at some place. As toss you just warp in at a staging point and clear your base after 1 or 2 production cycles.
Plus toss key units are easy to use (I'm looking at you, colossus), which means most of the time micro is limited to 1 unit type (High Templar) and at least in the PvT matchup the protoss is the one dictating the composition of the terran past the mid game as the addition of vikings/ghost/medivacs is dependent on the tech the toss goes and the amount of zealots forces me to adjust the marine/marauder ratio.
I have a question that I wanna know what you think about, what about spreading out production facilities? o wo A terran that spread out their production facilities, instead of having them all in their main, would be able to rally to a staging point as well.
And, just to point out, anybody is fucked if someone is in their base taking out their tech, I don't think Zerg get to reserve that complaint. XD
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
More archons more immortals more high templars
Actually, the point in which I am referencing (when the broodlords first pop out) HuK has no archons at all.
Also, I already address Destiny's composition and goal with his composition. It is a harass based poke and prod style. It isnt a brute force attack that tries to overwhelm the opponent. He ALWAYS gets 20+ infestors. And while infestors are good, and can deal huge amounts of damage... it isnt frontloaded damage in most cases. You have to engage THEN throw IT's out which means they come after a lot of your army is dead, which means you cant do anything after the fight. What MY composition does is it frontloads ALL of the damage, then you still have the heavy duty expensive long build time units in the end and reinforce with a lot more cheap and quick building ling/baneling. This means you rebuild extremely quickly and can punish afterwards.
Going back to HuK vs Destiny though, you are wrong about the archons entirely. He doesnt get archons until pretty near 31 minutes into that video. Up until that point it is the exact composition that ling/bling/ultra (+infestor) destroys.
How hard is it to understand basic logic?
destiny attacks with brood lords, ultras, infestors, zerglings against huk's army which at the time does not have enough archons.
Destiny wins the battle and still has most of his army.
HuK makes a new army composed of mostly Archons, and wins. Destiny's composition of Brood Lords and more Infestors instead of Banelings is better against Archon builds for obvious reasons.
Do you see what I'm getting at? One more retarded post and I'm just closing TL
His composition is better, but loses (which points to an impossible to win scenario?). You also say for obvious reasons. Believe it or not, banelings dont do horribly bad against archons. Banelings will cost a chunk more minerals, but a LOT less vespene gas (which in the late game situation like that is pretty valuable, but doesnt apply here because destiny spends his gas on everything else) and will beat archons handily if looking at a pure food standpoint.
ling/baneling/ultra beats any realistic (ie: no 140 food archon armies) ground composition of equal food in ZvP, assuming no narrow choke point (and throw in 2-3 infestors if you want to negate any micro). This is my argument. Your best attempt at disproving my argument is linking me to a destiny game wherein he doesnt use banelings and uses relatively few zerlings (you know, half to 2/3 of the composition I am talking about)
140 lings/75 banelings/4 ultralisks beats 17 archons, 40 chargelots and you still have 3 ultras in the end, and the protoss used 5100 gas vs 2650 for the zerg.
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Go mech, build turret lines tvt, drops never cross your mind again.
On August 11 2011 15:33 Thrombozyt wrote: My reason why I consider toss to be more on the easy side actually comes from a toss player out of the 'why is toss so unsuccessful lately' thread. There the toss player complained:
"If I miss 2 medivacs coming in and my warpgates are on cooldown, I cannot bring my army back before they inflict massive damage."
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Also really long drawn out games against toss are just frustrating. 20+ warpgates mean that even if you win a battle, you cannot capitalize. No matter what you try to do, there will be a gaggle of chargelots greeting you together with the 1 full mana HT who had the drop watch at whatever base I attack. As a Zerg you are fucked if they are in your base and take out your tech. As a terran you are fucked if they are on top of your production facilities with just a small contingent, because you cannot rally forces at some place. As toss you just warp in at a staging point and clear your base after 1 or 2 production cycles.
Plus toss key units are easy to use (I'm looking at you, colossus), which means most of the time micro is limited to 1 unit type (High Templar) and at least in the PvT matchup the protoss is the one dictating the composition of the terran past the mid game as the addition of vikings/ghost/medivacs is dependent on the tech the toss goes and the amount of zealots forces me to adjust the marine/marauder ratio.
I have a question that I wanna know what you think about, what about spreading out production facilities? o wo A terran that spread out their production facilities, instead of having them all in their main, would be able to rally to a staging point as well.
And, just to point out, anybody is fucked if someone is in their base taking out their tech, I don't think Zerg get to reserve that complaint. XD
Because spreading out production facilities when each production facility only makes one at a time makes your production vulnerable to being split or destroyed easily. Terran buildings take up a lot of space with their tech labs, reactors and barracks, they have to build quite a bit out of base in the mid->late game even with good sim city. Plus due to the fact that units are rallied out of barracks instead of warped in, they have to be placed properly so that units wont get trapped (unlike warpgates, which u can put anywhere you like).
On August 11 2011 15:08 ETisME wrote: Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
Excuse me? I want to be looking EVERYWHERE, ALL the time. I can't, sadly, so I compensate by looking a lot of places quickly and gathering all the information as quickly as possible. You can definitely jump through your hatcheries while being active with your units, watching your minimap, and doing other stuff.
Yeah, that's kind of why I stuck to 3 bases...past that stuff gets weird. For all races, though...though arguably Protoss might have it easiest with the choices because they only have one choice for their Nexus energy.
Er...if you want to cycle through hotkeys to check larva timer, you can. It's an option to hotkey your Hatcheries to individual hotkeys if clicking wire-frames isn't comfortable.
Practice practice practice. Speed and consistency comes with practice. There are players who can inject while microing in an engagement, it comes with practice.
Like I said, microing in an engagement won't allow you to inject unless you are confident that your army is way stronger, not to mention dealing with an extra drop in base or something like that. Even NesTea won't be able to keep the queen's energy to lower than 30 in a 25 mins game. (it is either he has already injected before the battle or after the battle)
Let's think how terran can macro: hotkey production facilities, press unit hotkeys protoss: hotkey production facility: press unit hotey. Or hotkey proxy pylon, warp units Zerg: hotkey hatch, press units. (then if using your method, cycle through bases for injections)
I think it is quite clear how much more works it takes zerg to maintain the highest production capability that it should be able to do
The problem is that if you miss one or a few, it is a lot more punishing than missing the mule or boost. I mean it is so much more important for zerg to keep up with their macro or they fall behind in both unit and worker production, but terran can miss lots of mules and protoss can miss lots of boost while being ok because they can multi-boost/mule it to get the benefit. (check how much energy Alicia always have in his nexus)
Chronoboost is probably the easiest to manage macro mechanic because it is very intuitive and obvious when and where you need to use it for most situations and builds and if not intuitive can be easily understood when learned. Terran need to dictate whether or not they need/want to scan or to use a mule (ofc they want to use a mule as much as they can but not always) and it requires a decent amount of multitasking similar to the larvae inject but of course more forgiving. The larvae inject for Zerg requires the most multitasking of the three and it is the most unforgiving. Also, to really benefit from larvae injects one needs to properly manage their larvae (be sure not to get supply blocked and whether or not to build units or drones) and in order to properly manage larvae requires yet another needed skill which is economy management.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
Nonononononononononononononononononono. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/
In this sense, I agree with you, yes. The click-execution is pretty much the same, it's about the timings. And because you also responded to the larvae "challenge" (hehe), I agree that it's almost certainly not optimal yet, even in the play of such near genius-level players as Nestea and Ret. It's quite possibly...: (future zerg nerfs incoming once it gets even more optimized, imo) edit: Let me clarify that I meant larvae-spending in this post, not larvae-injecting, of course.
Let's think how terran can macro: hotkey production facilities, press unit hotkeys protoss: hotkey production facility: press unit hotey. Or hotkey proxy pylon, warp units Zerg: hotkey hatch, press units. (then if using your method, cycle through bases for injections)
I think it is quite clear how much more works it takes zerg to maintain the highest production capability that it should be able to do
You've never played protoss before, or if you have, you're trolling. It's extremely important for protoss to gain positional advantages to create winnable engagements, all of which requires immense focus. All it takes in PvZ is less than a second of your attention else where to find out you've been massively outflanked, or that zerg units streamed in too close for FF's to even matter. PvT punishes both protoss and terran heavily if they aren't both aware of each other's positions and the enemy gets perfect casts off. You have to macro during all of these tense situations and still keep focus to, or else suddenly lose everything.
And then you get to make units off other production buildings (robo/stargate), keep up supply (something zerg doesn't have to look at their base to do), warp off 8-20+ gateways off screen from the fight, shift box+re-hotkey them and chronoboost warp gates. Some pros won't even macro while moving for position or fighting because hitting engagements correctly is so important as protoss at ultra high levels.
On August 11 2011 15:08 ETisME wrote: Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
Excuse me? I want to be looking EVERYWHERE, ALL the time. I can't, sadly, so I compensate by looking a lot of places quickly and gathering all the information as quickly as possible. You can definitely jump through your hatcheries while being active with your units, watching your minimap, and doing other stuff.
Yeah, that's kind of why I stuck to 3 bases...past that stuff gets weird. For all races, though...though arguably Protoss might have it easiest with the choices because they only have one choice for their Nexus energy.
Er...if you want to cycle through hotkeys to check larva timer, you can. It's an option to hotkey your Hatcheries to individual hotkeys if clicking wire-frames isn't comfortable.
Practice practice practice. Speed and consistency comes with practice. There are players who can inject while microing in an engagement, it comes with practice.
Like I said, microing in an engagement won't allow you to inject unless you are confident that your army is way stronger, not to mention dealing with an extra drop in base or something like that. Even NesTea won't be able to keep the queen's energy to lower than 30 in a 25 mins game. (it is either he has already injected before the battle or after the battle)
Let's think how terran can macro: hotkey production facilities, press unit hotkeys protoss: hotkey production facility: press unit hotey. Or hotkey proxy pylon, warp units Zerg: hotkey hatch, press units. (then if using your method, cycle through bases for injections)
I think it is quite clear how much more works it takes zerg to maintain the highest production capability that it should be able to do
The problem is that if you miss one or a few, it is a lot more punishing than missing the mule or boost. I mean it is so much more important for zerg to keep up with their macro or they fall behind in both unit and worker production, but terran can miss lots of mules and protoss can miss lots of boost while being ok because they can multi-boost/mule it to get the benefit. (check how much energy Alicia always have in his nexus)
I've made this argument before elsewhere and I'll make a small version here. Hitting that larva inject for zerg is more similar to hitting a production cycle for terran and a warp in for protoss. You can't miss any one of the 3. Argument 1: "But you can que units as terran"
Queuing units is a part of having bad macro. If you can que two tanks, that means you basically have 450/375 unspent minerals and gas. At low master as terran you actually can't get by having any unspent minerals or gas above 300/300 at the 15 minute mark. (And no that's not two tanks in que because you have more than one production facility)
Argument 2: "But you have to look at your base as zerg to hit the larva inject"
Terran players have to build supply depots.
You have to look at your base to hit a mule too. I know you want to tell me that you can hold extra energy but that's really not viable until pretty late into the game. I would say past the 25 minute mark. Correct me if I'm wrong, but zerg can also float larva at that point in the game. Ultralisks and broodlords cost a lot of supply and money but not a lot of larva. Same thing for mutalisks. Having extra energy on your queens at that point in the game is not a way to have less units.
But also, I guess marines take much more babysitting than things like zerglings, banelings, broodlords... It's much more difficult to look away from a terran army.
I'm not saying terran is the hardest race to play, I just don't think zerg macro mechanics make zerg more difficult to play than other races. I think having good macro will benefit a zerg player the most, because of the way zerg benefits from having a lot of units. But I don't think zerg is that much more difficult to learn than terran or zerg.
Now when I say this, I'm not talking about becoming a diamond level zerg and a diamond level terran or protoss. I think there are some jumps that are easier to make as certain races. I think it's most difficult to get to high diamond as zerg, because of the necessity of learning intensive map awareness and learning to stop cheese while not putting your economy in the dump. But once you get to that point, I don't think learning to improve any further is any more difficult as zerg as it is for terran. Lol. I'm kind of questioning protoss in this area... I personally feel like the Protoss learning curve levels out at mid to high master, but I wouldn't know for sure.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Fjglf.jpg)
Yes, they cannot multi-inject like the other races can stack missed macro-mechanics. If anyone has information on this, I'd be very interested in learning. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BAZWD.jpg)
