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On August 11 2011 15:53 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 15:26 maasai_ wrote:On August 11 2011 15:08 figq wrote:On August 11 2011 14:52 maasai_ wrote:On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points:
1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic.
2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono.
I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens. 1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D: I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3. Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules. Nononononononononononononononononono no. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/ In this sense, I agree with you, yes. The click-execution is pretty much the same, it's about the timings. And because you also responded to the larvae "challenge" (hehe), I agree that it's almost certainly not optimal yet, even in the play of such near genius-level players as Nestea and Ret. It's quite possibly... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BAZWD.jpg)  (future zerg nerfs incoming once it gets even more optimized, imo)
Timings are to be practiced...and practiced...and practiced.  Do you see near genius-level play in Nestea and Ret? I see sloppy play and mistakes...ALL the time, it's saddening that they can get away with it sometimes. They're good, but they can be better, I hope!
You think so? I think HoTS and whatever the third expansion might change the game too much for such a bold statement yet...
On August 11 2011 15:56 UniversalMind wrote:
wow you guys are still going at it? what a shit storm lol, gotta love these imba threads
The last few pages have actually been pretty good. :D Some interesting discussion with polite debate, hardly a "shit storm", lol. Nice contribution to the thread, though. <3
i apologize for my sarcasm, sometimes I cannot help it. D;
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I know I'm late to the party, but as a protoss player, I'd say that toss is easiest macro wise and hardest micro wise. I feel like they require more micro and ability usage to survive than the other races do, at least when it comes to deathball vs deathball fights. Their macro is pretty easy though... wzzzsssss etc.
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Basically what everyone is saying:
MY RACE IS LEAST POWERFUL, BUT I STILL WIN MORE GAMES BECAUSE I AM JUST THAT GOOD. ALSO, MY RACE HAS HARDER MECHANICS THAN OTHERS AND REQUIRE MORE STRATEGIC THINKING IN MY GAMEPLAY!
WHEN EVER RACE X DOES STRATEGY Y, MY RACE CANT DEFEND IT. BUT DUE TO HOW MY RACE REQUIRES MACRO AND MICRO, I CAN STILL WIN!
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In terms of ease of play, I think its:
Protoss > Terran >>> Zerg
So its not so much that Protoss is super easy, its just that Zerg is hard because of the larvae mechanic.
I do think Protoss is a little bit easier than Terran because their macro is slightly more forgiving. Terran can be a little tricky because you must constantly be producing out of all your structures all the time. If you slip up, you're screwed. Of course constant production is important for Protoss too. But if Protoss misses something they can always chronoboost it to catch up. The only thing Terrans get a free pass on is supply blocks with the calldown depot.
And for new players with really low apm, its really nice needing only one worker to build all your buildings. And proxy pylons are great because you don't need to worry about rally points like Terran and Zerg do.
Protoss also has the best static defense. Forcefields and Cannons. Low level players often rely on static defenses to cover for their bad macro. Zerg's are average, sunkens and spores are great but they're not all-inclusive like cannons. Terran's static defense is awful, there's bunkers but they're pointless unless you have army to fill them. Turrets and PFs are too limited and expensive in their roles.
Another thing that is really helpful to new players is that Protoss has the most powerful 200/200 army. So even if your micro sucks, if you can max out you'll probably win anyway. Yes Zerg is the most 1A race, but if you 1A a 200/200 Zerg army against a 200/200 Protoss army, the Protoss is gonna win.
Zerg's strengths are in its strong macro, flexibility, vision, and speed...not army strength. That requires a bit more skill to exploit compared to Protoss strengths. (which are strong units, tech, and instantaneous reinforcement via warpgate)
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On August 11 2011 16:38 RoboBob wrote:
Another thing that is really helpful to new players is that Protoss has the most powerful 200/200 army. So even if your micro sucks, if you can max out you'll probably win anyway. Yes Zerg is the most 1A race, but if you 1A a 200/200 Zerg army against a 200/200 Protoss army, the Protoss is gonna win.
yeah no shit, considering toss' 200/200 army is actually worth 2-3x more resources than the zerg/terran's 200/200 army of mainly marines and zerglings
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On August 11 2011 16:11 maasai_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 15:53 figq wrote:On August 11 2011 15:26 maasai_ wrote:On August 11 2011 15:08 figq wrote:On August 11 2011 14:52 maasai_ wrote:On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points:
1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic.
2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono.
I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens. 1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D: I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3. Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules. Nononononononononononononononononono no. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/ In this sense, I agree with you, yes. The click-execution is pretty much the same, it's about the timings. And because you also responded to the larvae "challenge" (hehe), I agree that it's almost certainly not optimal yet, even in the play of such near genius-level players as Nestea and Ret. It's quite possibly... (future zerg nerfs incoming once it gets even more optimized, imo) Timings are to be practiced...and practiced...and practiced. Do you see near genius-level play in Nestea and Ret? I see sloppy play and mistakes...ALL the time, it's saddening that they can get away with it sometimes. They're good, but they can be better, I hope! You think so? I think HoTS and whatever the third expansion might change the game too much for such a bold statement yet... After the 3rd expansion, builds may settle, but still the optimization of larvae spending (not injecting) is going to remain a challenge, imo, yes.
But to get back on topic - the same applies pretty much to chrono boost too, at the highest level. Full gameplan, optimizing the usage of chrono, isn't easy at all to develop.
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On August 11 2011 05:14 HentaiPrime wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171927d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-protosskeyboardsmul4.jpg) and ![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171928d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-forcefield.jpg) now you're set! optional: ![[image loading]](http://www.toyday.co.uk/shop/images/uploads/maracas1.jpg) for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate! that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
HAHAHAHA oh my god lol! You sir won the internet and in the process made my day!
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LOL that's actually really funny. xD
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I haven't read all 37 pages, so i apologize if that has already been said:
I think Protoss is considered the easiest race because they have a ton of openings that can outright kill your opponent if he makes a single mistake. Players are more and more adapting to the strategies, but there are still some that can catch you off guard:
- 4gate
- 6/7/8gate
- (proxy) voidray rush
- (proxy) DT rush
- cannon rush
- proxy 2gate
Zerg:
- 6/7/8 pool
- 10/11 pool
- 7rr
- baneling bust
Terran:
- proxy 2rax
- (proxy) cloaked banshees
- bunker rush
- 3rax scv all-in
Since a lot of people on the ladder abuse some of the protoss cheese openings, people hate to play against them and in turn call them easy because they didn't scout enough or weren't prepared.
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its a joke that this thread is even made,most people leaving comments are plat/diamond leaguers who have no idea what it takes to be a solid protoss player,and to think that zergs say zerg is harder because of larva mechanic?wtf go back to your bronze league any1 with any semi decent mechanics can do that,look at BW you had to go to every expo and select individual workers and send them to mine everytime a worker has was made....but anyway thats not my point,my point is that its very easy to make a race sound easy
zerg ->get 3 base of drones,amove your roaches when they die hold down 4srrrrrrrrrrrr get brand new army and amove again
Terran -> trow down a few mules,make merauder ,press T and amove
im not saying this is how easy those races are but the way people talk about protoss is in the same context as what im saying.
if protoss was the easiest race then players would find it easier to get to the top with protoss and therefore there would be a higher representation of protoss at the top of ladder and gsl but there is not,and if you are talking about easier at lower leagues then dont worry about what is easier and worry about getting better cause in those leagues it really doesnt matter at all
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The only easy thing about Protoss is mass warpgates in late game. They let you reinforce massive amounts of units in just 5 seconds, wherever you want. T and Z have to wait for build time+travel time. I think this aspect of warpin mechanic favours Protoss in late game. Besides that, no I don't think P is particularly easier than others.
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[B]Simple numbers reveal that Protoss investments are heavier in cost at any given point in time compared to the other two races making toss tech choices more unforgiving.
this is not necessarily true in tvp, usually it's even, and if toss goes some heavy gateway style play such as 6 gate or zealot archon lategame composition, they usually spend much less on tech than terran.
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On August 11 2011 16:57 Morfildur wrote:
I haven't read all 37 pages, so i apologize if that has already been said:
I think Protoss is considered the easiest race because they have a ton of openings that can outright kill your opponent if he makes a single mistake. Players are more and more adapting to the strategies, but there are still some that can catch you off guard:
- 4gate
- 6/7/8gate
- (proxy) voidray rush
- (proxy) DT rush
- cannon rush
- proxy 2gate
Zerg:
- 6/7/8 pool
- 10/11 pool
- 7rr
- baneling bust
Terran:
- proxy 2rax
- (proxy) cloaked banshees
- bunker rush
- 3rax scv all-in
Since a lot of people on the ladder abuse some of the protoss cheese openings, people hate to play against them and in turn call them easy because they didn't scout enough or weren't prepared.
What about 1/1/1, 2 port banshee, pulling scv off every single build out there etc
Zerg what about all these 2 base timing design to kill or you fall behind massively, hydra timing etc.
6 gates is as viable as half of the build you did not include in that list.
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Protoss is the easiest race to learn, but the hardest to master.
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On August 11 2011 16:57 Morfildur wrote:
I haven't read all 37 pages, so i apologize if that has already been said:
I think Protoss is considered the easiest race because they have a ton of openings that can outright kill your opponent if he makes a single mistake. Players are more and more adapting to the strategies, but there are still some that can catch you off guard:
- 4gate
- 6/7/8gate
- (proxy) voidray rush
- (proxy) DT rush
- cannon rush
- proxy 2gate
Zerg:
- 6/7/8 pool
- 10/11 pool
- 7rr
- baneling bust
Terran:
- proxy 2rax
- (proxy) cloaked banshees
- bunker rush
- 3rax scv all-in
Since a lot of people on the ladder abuse some of the protoss cheese openings, people hate to play against them and in turn call them easy because they didn't scout enough or weren't prepared.
Also blue flame hellions, also 111 allin. Terrans are by far the most versatile race.
I think everyone would agree Zerg is the hardest race but I think Terran is easier than toss. Terran has extremely forgiving detection, supply and mule mechanics. the least fragile teching path and very simple micro mechanics (stutter step, tank focus, Stim to run)
Toss, has powerful units but teching is dangerous because of how fragile the Toss early game is.
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terran has an "all in" for every unit they have
dont scout and react properly and you lose, hell even if you scout and react properly you might still lose
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On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote:
Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss.
I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects.
I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
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On August 11 2011 17:16 sceroh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote:
Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss. I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects. I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
z can continue injects but they still missed the original time they could have been making larva since they can't stack injects, i.e. missed their round as well. Instead of having 8 larva they will have 4. Theres not really any difference there. Its true Terran can queue so they will most likely not miss any rounds, but you have to remember that they don't use warp barracks, so protoss can queue also if you don't have warp gates.
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On August 11 2011 17:16 sceroh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote:
Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss. I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects. I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
I'm going to have to disagree in a lot of different ways.
You can't que up units. That's bad macro. Having one tank in production and two in que means you really have 300/250 unspent minerals and gas. In just one production facility. I'll tell you for a fact that that is actually too much to have in unspent cash at low master level.
If you miss a production cycle as terran, you actually have to build more production facilities to spend that money.
Also, Protoss production facilities are wherever the hell you want them to be. Wherever there is a pylon there is a production facility and you're always looking at them. it's easier to remember to macro because you're literally making the units as you're using them.
Also, Protoss units are just flat out more expensive than units from other races. Warpgate cooldowns are low and chronoboost can make them even lower. It's pretty easy to dump your cash into warpgates.
My friend, a protoss player, told me that vs bio after he put down his forcefields he went straight back to macro and stopped microing. Your units don't have to be kited like marauders and marines do from zealots.
I think learning to macro those things isn't.... difficult for a mid master player, but I think making that jump to mid master from high diamond is more difficult for players that don't play protoss.
EDIT: also the "saving up energy for injects" thing is just silly. Think about having one hatchery and one queen. The spawn larva mechanic finishes just when you reach 25 energy again. If you have 50 energy when the spawn larva mechanic finishes, you can still only spend 25.
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So.. does people realize that larvae stack up? While if you miss to warp in /build a unit that unit is forever gone? So yeah, missing an inject might be more bad than missing an chrono/mule, but missing to build your units for a while(as zerg) is not at all as severe av missing a warp in or terran equal..
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EPT
