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Why is protoss considered to be the "easiest race" - Page 35

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RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 05:41:20
August 11 2011 05:40 GMT
#681
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote:
I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate.
Yay

And how do protoss require the most micro? In my opinion the most micro intensive race is terran. However I find your testimony about zerg false and still biased. What if you have banelings in your zerg army? Should we now micro overlord drops? What if we had mutalisks lings and banelings? Should we just 1a all our army and lose all we have?

This thread feels like a thread for mass controversy
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
August 11 2011 05:41 GMT
#682
On August 11 2011 14:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:24 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:15 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
am only diamond

There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.


So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.

Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.

storms for banelings
feedback for infestors (no need to land many)
archons for ultras


watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.


Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.


Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.

EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.



Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.


As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest

So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.

I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.

As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?

I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.

I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Basically, youre an idiot.

Pop quiz:
[image loading]

What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Shamrock_
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
South Africa276 Posts
August 11 2011 05:42 GMT
#683
Few reasons:
1. 1 and 2 base is very strong for Protoss
2. Warpgate tech allows instant warp ins and doesn't require larva build up and Queen micro, nor does it require timings as with Terran you slowly stream out units to their death
3. Chrono boost upgrades
4. While good micro does help, 1a is extremely effective as Protoss because the units are so strong. Good Protoss players obviously micro, but I believe lower league players require less skill to win with Protoss than any other race for this and other reasons.
5. They're given a lot of slack--if your HTs run out of energy you can make Archons. Immortals hard-counter almost every unit that does more than 10 damage. Colossus are pretty much impossible to counter with ground units and force air-air combat, taking up a lot of supply.
6. They have Sentries very early on and can FF their ramp shut, FF your ramp shut, FF anything on the map and it's not like it requires particular skill, unless you want to do it well.


Probably others. That said, I don't think it'd be fair to say Protoss is overpowered since their performance in recent tournaments has been negligible, but a low level Zerg would lose to a same-skilled Protoss (imo) and this only shifts at upper levels of play.
This is my rifle, this is my gun; this is for fighting, this is for fun
Obaten
Profile Joined December 2010
United States730 Posts
August 11 2011 05:43 GMT
#684
On August 11 2011 13:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Missing a siege costs you the game, missing a forcefield doesn't.


Go watch SlayerS_Alicia vs MVP Keen from last night. Missing one forcefield lost him the game.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 06:41:57
August 11 2011 05:43 GMT
#685
On August 11 2011 14:28 maasai_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:10 ETisME wrote:
because it is harder.
You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.



o__o That wasn't my point, but o-k...this is an entirely different argument.

Why is the player missing injections? For unit production, that's like a Protoss missing a warp-gate cycle or a Terran forgetting to queue any units. You're attributing player mistakes to the races.
You have to order your macro-comparisons straight:
Macro mechanics: Chrono, Inject, Mule
Production cycle: Missed warping, Unspent larvae, Empty rax/fact/port

P.S.
Reading through this thread, I realized that it seems a lot of people who haven't played much zerg do not quite understand how larvae works. I'm not sure exactly how to explain, but please check for yourself how it actually works. It doesn't auto-produce itself, if unspent, and it can never be more than 19 (next round dies). Check it out, you may find it fun
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24568 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 05:45:58
August 11 2011 05:45 GMT
#686
Protoss gets all this hate because there was a period early in the game were they definitely WERE the easiest race to get up to a certain standard of play. The deathball was nigh-on unbeatable, storms were a nightmare with amulet and the classic 4 gate was still viable in all matchups

Lately it seems the other races have found a lot of counters to the stock Protoss builds, and the race just generally seems to lack something at the highest levels of play. Inside the game had a pretty good discussion on it, made more amusing by Idra's BM

Anyway, I suppose it's like what being a zerg was in the early days. Certain people will look at the win rates, the fact Protoss are getting STOMPED in damn near every tournament and think, hm maybe Protoss needs a fix, or IDEALLY someone starts figuring out new standard builds to shift our current metagame.

Protoss I think is the only race that gets pretty big nerfs patch after patch and sees an exponentional whine in how "OP" they are as well, one of the lovely perks of our race.

Then some people will still claim, despite ALL empirical evidence to the contrary that Protoss are overpowered and easy, but hey you can't win them all.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
August 11 2011 05:45 GMT
#687
So, to respond to the original question, the answer is actually that this is a proud tradition of StarCraft culture. Who are we to argue against the legacy of our forefathers? Protoss is the easy race, it has always been the easy race, and it will always be the easy race, regardless of change or evidence of any kind. To have it any other way would be a betrayal of our identity as StarCraft gamers.

Of course, many people have tried to give cause to this traditional wisdom, but none has proven satisfactory. Perhaps you'd like to hear mine? It is based on the stories I have heard of the heroes and legends of the distant past.

People tell of how BoxeR abandoned Protoss to forge the Empire of Terrans. Whispered tales endure of how he left his original team due to a lack of Protoss practice partners. And the legends speak of Protoss being his worst matchup. If these stories are true, then we may speculate that, as history if written by the victors, the Emperor's grievances were enshrined in law, that Protoss should be hated and persecuted for as long as the reign of Terrans endured, as it still does to this day.

And though I be myself a Protoss, out of love and respect for the Emperor, I shall abide by his will. Long reign the Emperor! And forever scorned shall be the 1a2a3aGG easy race!
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
NExt
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1651 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 05:49:34
August 11 2011 05:47 GMT
#688
On August 11 2011 14:43 Obaten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 13:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Missing a siege costs you the game, missing a forcefield doesn't.


Go watch SlayerS_Alicia vs MVP Keen from last night. Missing one forcefield lost him the game.


that was heart breaking
Waiting for Protoss Jesus
Obaten
Profile Joined December 2010
United States730 Posts
August 11 2011 05:51 GMT
#689
On August 11 2011 14:47 NExt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:43 Obaten wrote:
On August 11 2011 13:48 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Missing a siege costs you the game, missing a forcefield doesn't.


Go watch SlayerS_Alicia vs MVP Keen from last night. Missing one forcefield lost him the game.


that was heart breaking


It really was, I was sad after watching that game =(
KiLL_ORdeR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1518 Posts
August 11 2011 05:51 GMT
#690
how is this thread still alive haha.
In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy
maasai_
Profile Joined August 2011
United States27 Posts
August 11 2011 05:52 GMT
#691
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points:
1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic.
2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono.
I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.


1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:

I have 3 bases and want to chronoboost 3 things. Let's say a robo bay, a robo facility, and a forge
[robohotkey]-6-z-[click]
[robofacilityhotkey]-6-z-[click]
[forgehotkey]-6-z-[click]

I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times.
space-4-x-[clickhatch]
space-4-x-[clickhatch]
space-4-x-[clickhatch]

I have 3 bases and want to drop a mule at each to have equal mule saturation (maybe?)
space-6-x-[click minerals]
space-x-[click minerals]
space-x-[click minerals]



2. I honestly can't say I'm knowledgable enough in the losses of injection/muling/chrono for seconds missed, so I won't argue that point. Yes, they cannot multi-inject like the other races can stack missed macro-mechanics. If anyone has information on this, I'd be very interested in learning.

On August 11 2011 14:39 ETisME wrote:
because it isn't about spamming hotkeys to make sure the units are coming out constantly (or looking at that mini icon for warp gate cycle)

I think you should play zerg and see how it works.
Unless you hotkey individual hatchery, you cannot see the larva spawn progress, meaning that every so often, you would want to do a base cycle to check how long until the larva is spawn and if you need to inject soon.
Some pro will line up the injection timing but it only works with 3 bases the most (I caught this in Idra's replay), eventually most would have to throw down a macro hatchery.

attributing player mistakes to the races certainly is a thing that cannot be ignored, because no one plays perfect injection/mule/chrono in an equally skilled match.
But injection is the most punishing for sure.


I'll never understand why there is that icon for warp-gate...

Base cycling is something I feel anyone should be doing anyways, because usually there's free time to do it...there's a very convenient camera hotkey to cycle through bases without even having to select them. In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen?
I wouldn't say it's punishing as much as encourages practice and focus.
meow~
Disquiet
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia628 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 05:58:00
August 11 2011 05:52 GMT
#692
On August 11 2011 14:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:24 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:15 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
am only diamond

There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.


So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.

Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.

storms for banelings
feedback for infestors (no need to land many)
archons for ultras


watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.


Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.


Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.

EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJyNwZ2OmuI&feature=relmfu

Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.


As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest

So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.

I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.

As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?

I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.

I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Basically, youre an idiot.

Pop quiz:
[image loading]

What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?


I would guess protoss, assuming he gets good storms. But thats fairly irrelevant since the zerg is using ling/bane which is hardcountered by storm and the few ultras will be handled by the immortal and archons. He should be using roaches,broodlords and infestors. Its like complaining that a massive marine ball loses to colossus with no skill required. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT ITS THE COUNTER.

Btw, to counter your that composition I would suggest colossus, banelings and zerglings are absolutely horrible vs colossus. Blink stalkers or HT for the infestor, whichever you think works best, they are both hard to use but can counter infestors with skill, for the ultras get immortals archons and zealots if he doesnt have enough banes.
Joey Wheeler
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (North)276 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 05:55:37
August 11 2011 05:53 GMT
#693
On August 11 2011 14:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:24 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:15 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
am only diamond

There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.


So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.

Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.

storms for banelings
feedback for infestors (no need to land many)
archons for ultras


watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.


Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.


Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.

EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJyNwZ2OmuI&feature=relmfu

Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.


As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest

So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.

I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.

As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?

I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.

I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Basically, youre an idiot.

Pop quiz:
[image loading]

What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?

Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling
Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord

Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.

HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?

Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.

Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.


More archons
more immortals
more high templars



Joey Wheeler
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (North)276 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 05:56:33
August 11 2011 05:54 GMT
#694
delete this post
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
August 11 2011 05:57 GMT
#695
On August 11 2011 14:52 Disquiet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:24 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:15 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
am only diamond

There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.


So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.

Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.

storms for banelings
feedback for infestors (no need to land many)
archons for ultras


watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.


Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.


Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.

EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJyNwZ2OmuI&feature=relmfu

Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.


As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest

So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.

I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.

As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?

I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.

I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Basically, youre an idiot.

Pop quiz:
[image loading]

What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?


I would guess protoss, assuming he gets good storms. But thats fairly irrelevant since the zerg is using ling/bane which is hardcountered by storm and the few ultras will be handled by the immortal and archons. He should be using roaches,broodlords and infestors. Its like complaining that a massive marine ball loses to colossus with no skill required. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT ITS THE COUNTER.

Way off. Like, seriously way off (and is why I am posting about my composition and not destiny's composition).
[image loading]
Disquiet
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia628 Posts
August 11 2011 05:59 GMT
#696
On August 11 2011 14:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 14:52 Disquiet wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:24 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:15 Joey Wheeler wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote:
[quote]
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.


So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.

Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.

storms for banelings
feedback for infestors (no need to land many)
archons for ultras


watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.


Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.


Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.

EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJyNwZ2OmuI&feature=relmfu

Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.


As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest

So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.

I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.

As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?

I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.

I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Basically, youre an idiot.

Pop quiz:
[image loading]

What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?


I would guess protoss, assuming he gets good storms. But thats fairly irrelevant since the zerg is using ling/bane which is hardcountered by storm and the few ultras will be handled by the immortal and archons. He should be using roaches,broodlords and infestors. Its like complaining that a massive marine ball loses to colossus with no skill required. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT ITS THE COUNTER.

Way off. Like, seriously way off (and is why I am posting about my composition and not destiny's composition).
[image loading]

I didn't see the infestors, I hsould have checked the unit bar, I just went off what was purely on screen. zerg is 50 supply up, its no surprise they won.
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
August 11 2011 06:00 GMT
#697
if the game is balanced around optimal play then optimal use of gateways will usually be to produce out of them constantly, so you'll need to warpin exactly when the cooldowns finish....

of course, the same can be said for larva injects (you should usually hit all your inject timings and produce from all larva) , and all T production (you shouldn't queue), but I don't get the theoretical argument for P macro being easier at top level
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
A-BomB
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland79 Posts
August 11 2011 06:00 GMT
#698
hypotheticaly,if this game was 100% balanced ,and protoss was the easiest race,wouldnt protoss be the most represented race at gsl and top of ladder?if its the easiest then more protosses would be at the top,but there not they are the least represented so either protoss is UP or protoss isnt the easiest race.....

the only people who think protoss is easy are the same people who dont play the race,
i mean sure strats like 4 gate is easy but (so is 3 rax or roachling all in) but macro toss is in no way easy,
im not saying zerg is easy but zergs make it out like satturating 3 bases as zerg and just pumping out units for the rest of the game such a challenge(yea sure you cant miss queen injects,well guess what we cant miss warp in cycles)
A-BOMB on http://www.justin.tv/abombtv (high level protoss stream)
Gazape
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland17 Posts
August 11 2011 06:02 GMT
#699
I read this thread and I see that here is post where is said that its easier to win as toss. Yeah because most of the posters are low league players and there its easier to win as protoss and now I mean bronze - plat with lower leagues because I think that in diamond you already have to micro and stuff. And people is saying that toss is 1a, well it isnt you have to place ur army right because 2 fungal/emp to army that isnt split and battle lost. And after splitting army you have to throw GOOD FF, yeah its easy to throw ff but placements have to be good because in some situations you might just block your own zealots with them or if there is coming some lings to your base and you miss ur force field with 1cm they just run in. If you have colossus you have to micro it if ur opponent is good at all, you have to blink stalkers to keep them alive since marauder/roach kills them in few sec and then there is high templar you have to throw storms and feedbacks.
I think terran needs most micro because you have to kite enemies, emp and so on. And I think that zerg is the most 1a race, think about it for example you have lings, roaches, brood lords what you have to do against toss? 1a if you lose ur army ýou just remax it with roaches or lings or in the worst case with 20 ultras. But thats just my opinion. And yeah Im just diamond.
Fakie
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada62 Posts
August 11 2011 06:03 GMT
#700
well, there's the "oh shit" moment that every player gets in starcraft. but races other than Toss actually have to wait for units to pop. but Toss have warpgates so you can get units instantly. (this applies most in battles and late game situations when high apm is requred)

also, in early game, protoss doesn't need to worry about their mienral/gas ratio compared to zerg and terran. zerg is almost always encouraged to take drones off gas after speed and terrans really need to know how many gas /when to take it depending on build. protoss, on the other hand, can make any combination of units. for example. lots of zealots when mineral is high, ltos of sentries when gas is high, and lots of stalkers if mineral and gas is relatively even.

and for protoss, you don't need to constatly need to "larva inject" (meaning that there's one less apm thing to worry about)

and in battles, protoss is not that micro-intensive.
things to worry about in battles:
1. forcefeild
2. put collosus at the back
3. blink (optional)

but terrans need to split marines, constalty seige and unseige, drop while pushing(optioal), stim at right times and such
I don't think I need to explain what a zerg needs to do in battles

and one last thing. since protoss units cost the most food, (no attacking units cost 1 food), they have less units, but max out quicker (less units to control and position in battles) and it takes less clicks to make them.

that's just what I think.
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