On August 11 2011 10:08 Techno wrote: ZenithM just made probably the best post I've seen not only in this thread, but on the whole of TeamLiquid since I've arrived. I only have one comment for him.
On August 11 2011 08:35 ZenithM wrote: Now, watch pro play, like HuK, Mana, or any korean protoss like MC, San or Puzzle. Can you say that they're doing nothing and are just slow fucks abusing the easiest race? Now look at those so called "smart pro terrans" like Sjow and Goody, who average something like 100 APM. Both of them are very good. Can you find Protoss players who are as successful with the same speed? I mean, the only protoss players with that kind of hand speed that come to my mind are NA protosses like Axslav, Incontrol, Minigun and Cruncher, but they are hardly what you would consider top protosses. I'm rarely amazed at a player's macro in pro games, but man, MC has so much stuff when he plays and manages to reinforce in the middle of a fight, and protoss players know that's a hard thing to do.
You must be saying that Sjow and Goody are top Terrans. I strongly feel like they are comparable to Axslav, Incontrol and Minigun. Infact, I would liquidbet both Axslav and Incontrol over Goody and Sjow any day. Goody has been ass at TvP for ages (IMO largely in part due to his lack of multitasking). Sjow, well, he's alright, but I still feel like to use Bio effectively requires more APM. Sjow could definetly beat these players. But I feel like a 2-0 is much more likely with the Protosses you present.
I would definetly be more confident betting on Axslav and Incontrol against Korean Terrans (excluding The Multitasking Beasts MVP, MMA and Puma) than I would on Sjow and Goody taking a match off any Protoss in Code A or above.
I'd love to agree with you but both Goody and Sjow are some of the most consistent players outside Korea, APM does not necessarily mean multitasking, Sjow was one of the first Terran players to show how good multiprong drops are, Goody also had like a 70% w/l ratio on the EU server, he's low APM is really due to he's mech style
Yes but I don't see how this relates to the discussion. My point about Code A Protoss > Foreign Terrans could be a result of Protoss weakness. Only really good Protosses could make it into Code A.
I do not think Protoss needs a buff to spawn a bonjwa, but it would certainly help.
lets see. Storm - 80 damage over 4 secs[20 dps]. easy to get away from with stim/speedlings/speed roaches (the majority of targets you'll aim for)
fungal growth - 36/46 damage over 4 secs [9/11.5 dps] Can escape or use abilities while caught in it.
regardless of the other spells they both have. (i'd give up feedback any day for infested terran with burrow). actually no. lets think about Infested tarran drops. 4 infestors dropped in a dark spot and sneak to a mineral line. they each make 8 terrans that do 8 dmg!?!?!?! (w/o ups) so thats 32 marines poping up all at the same time around ur nexus/cc/hatch. ur workers are dead plus ur nex/cc/hatch, and maybe even some tech. in 8 secs they can bring down a hive. ALL FOR FREE. just watch this shit:
I've always told my friends that are starting to play protoss because it's easy to learn and easy to become semi-decent. Gateway+colossus is 1a friendly and warpgates make macroing easier because the icon shows up in the bottom right without them needed to know the build timings of units.
On August 11 2011 10:19 SC2Joker wrote: lets see. Storm - 80 damage over 4 secs[20 dps]. easy to get away from with stim/speedlings/speed roaches (the majority of targets you'll aim for)
fungal growth - 36/46 damage over 4 secs [9/11.5 dps] Can escape or use abilities while caught in it.
regardless of the other spells they both have. (i'd give up feedback any day for infested terran with burrow). actually no. lets think about Infested tarran drops. 4 infestors dropped in a dark spot and sneak to a mineral line. they each make 8 terrans that do 8 dmg!?!?!?! (w/o ups) so thats 32 marines poping up all at the same time around ur nexus/cc/hatch. ur workers are dead plus ur nex/cc/hatch, and maybe even some tech. in 8 secs they can bring down a hive. ALL FOR FREE. just watch this shit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcpbwGZtVE
Any drop is serious if not spotted early, HT drops, Marauder marine drops, DT drops are sick if unscouted.
if protoss scouts zerg drops can easily deal with if
On August 11 2011 05:15 mustache wrote: It's because protoss has many units, single units even, which will make you insta lose at a low level. DTs and void rays for example. Hell these can wreck good players in very small numbers as well.
Apart from that they also have the easiest to control lategame army in the sense that you can often a-move the colossus deathball in every matchup and have quite some success.
And of course the macro is easier because of the frequency you have to build units. i.e you only have to "macro" half as much as the other player. 1 zealot instead of building 2 marines etc. This holds true compared to zerg more than terran i belive
This all makes for a very begginer friendly race, it evens up pretty fast though.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
Its not. In terms of macro I would say terran is the easiest. You can look at a battle and make all the units you need. Protoss needs to go back to a pylon in order to warp That is if you don't have a close proxy pylon >.>
Zerg have it the hardest IMO due to larva inject. The macro mechanics of both terran and toss are a lot more forgiving than missing a larva inject. Also, I never got why terran has mules and call down supply. Oh wtf i missed a depot. Drop supply. Very forgiving...
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
I'm 101% sure that 4 Zerglings beat a Zealot when attack moved (assuming sufficient surface area), and 2 Marines beat a Zealot with micro.
All drops fail if scouted. which can do the most damage in the shortest time. with reaction time and the time it takes to get your army there. i think infestor drops can do the most dmg in the shortest time. also at the least cost (for cost to dmg ratio) and dt drops are a joke. any good player can pick up when a player is going dts early (counting sentries or just flat out ovie scouting it). terran drops are always good so they don't really need discussion (BUU FAME HELLIONS). but even terran drops cant kill your main building and most of ur workers in less than 10 secs. whereas the infestor drop can. ht drops are good but still cant kill important tech like the ITs can.
I actually think that Protoss is probably the easyer race to learn at the lower levels (I'm a protoss player) probably becouse the mechanics are kinda intuitive. But as I've reached my Platinum level I've started practicing Zerg to "coach" my friends and I've found Zerg macro easyer. Once I've learn the inject timing and I've got better with it I've found very comfortable the fact that you can spawn drones, supply and units with basically 1 hotkey watching somewhere else. Whit Protoss I have to "find" a pylon to warp units and use 1 hotkey each for starport, robo and nexus to produce the "non gateway units" and the probes; plus I need to pick a probe to warp pylons and structures more frequently then with Z. For me the hard part about Z wasn't the mechanics but the "When should I drone? When should I spawn units?" so I started working on my scouting. Play zerg helped alot my protoss gameplay. Now I use alot more observers since I've found overlords very usefull when it comes down to scouting and vision of the map and I've improved my hotekey usage since I had to be precise with my injects. But maybe that's just me lol.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low.
You know, it actually works for every race. If your macro is not good, just make more raxes, more factories or more hatches than you need, and spend all that money. Did I just blow your mind?
I think the reason that Protoss is "easy" at low levels (and oddly, hard at higher levels) is related to the way the races work.
Protoss simply doesn't have as many units, most of the time, at any given point of the game, starting with the part where cost for 1 zealot = 2 marines = 4 zerglings. Obviously other units are a little more comparable between the races, but fewer units = easier control, and easier replacement. When micro is bad, the player who can micro his whole army (10 units) instead of half his army (...10 units) has a small advantage.
On the other hand, at the higher level when the APM and game understanding is there to micro as many units as necessary, Protoss is a little harder because there are simply fewer advantages to be gotten because of the fewer units. SC2 is not as pronounced as BW in this regard, and it's way too early to be making any balance claims based on this observation (or really, to make this observation as anything more than a tentative thing), but it still exists.
As a Terran player anytime I play against a protoss player I feel like they have little to no micro that need to be done in a big engagement while I have to get good emp off that hit all of the chargelot/Archons/Colossus/HTs or it's game over for me while all the protoss need to do is A move and get a couple of storm or FF off and he win the battle easily. I also need to spread my unit after the emp and start kiting the chargelot while running out of range of the colossus so my viking can deal with them. Basically protoss have like 2-3 units that need to be micro during a large battle against terran while the terran has to micro his whole army orelse it's game over for him. You also need to be constantly harassing in TvP as the terran orelse once again you will lose in the late game because protoss can just defend and get up to 3 base up with upgrades and mass warpgate and you will lose.
So I feel like unless you have the multitask of a korean T player, then TvP is a harder matchup for the terran player then the protoss. Protoss have less micro require to be put in the TvP matchup and they are much easier to macro. Now as for the PvZ matchup I heard it's much harder for protoss these days to win so I won't comment much on that except that infestor are too good in my opinion.
On August 11 2011 10:53 Phemtos wrote: As a Terran player anytime I play against a protoss player I feel like they have little to no micro that need to be done in a big engagement while I have to get good emp off that hit all of the chargelot/Archons/Colossus/HTs or it's game over for me while all the protoss need to do is A move and get a couple of storm or FF off and he win the battle easily. I also need to spread my unit after the emp and start kiting the chargelot while running out of range of the colossus so my viking can deal with them. Basically protoss have like 2-3 units that need to be micro during a large battle against terran while the terran has to micro his whole army orelse it's game over for him. You also need to be constantly harassing in TvP as the terran orelse once again you will lose in the late game because protoss can just defend and get up to 3 base up with upgrades and mass warpgate and you will lose.
So I feel like unless you have the multitask of a korean T player, then TvP is a harder matchup for the terran player then the protoss. Protoss have less micro require to be put in the TvP matchup and they are much easier to macro. Now as for the PvZ matchup I heard it's much harder for protoss these days to win so I won't comment much on that except that infestor are too good in my opinion.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
Bad Terran macro? Add raxes. Bad Zerg macro? Add hatches. Common, what are these arguments?
I'd even go as far as saying it's easier to pump units from a lot of hatches, than robo/gateways. That doesn't make Zerg an easy race.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low.
You know, it actually works for every race. If your macro is not good, just make more raxes, more factories or more hatches than you need, and spend all that money. Did I just blow your mind?
Warp gate macro is much more forgiving than macro from T/Z production facilities.
Chronoboost is the most forgiving macro ability (compared with MULEs and larvae inject). Most protoss can get away with only boosting in early game while Zerg pretty much falls apart after missing a few injects
EPT
That is if you don't have a close proxy pylon >.> 
