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On August 11 2011 08:25 Allscorpion wrote:
Because with the other races you have spawn larva and mules which need to be used at regular times to keep up to pace with each other. Whereas with chrono boost you can let the energy get up to 100 and you can still win which is pretty ****.
Because you can't drop multiple mules at once or make macro hatches, right? At the higher levels using your chrono all the time is important as well. If you aren't using your chrono, you will be behind on econ significantly because it is the way to match MULES and at least limp behind the larva inject mechanic. If you aren't chronoing your upgrades you will be behind because terran generally gets their engineering bay faster than you would get your forge, and many of their units scale better with upgrades (at least compared to stalkers). If you aren't chronoing your colossi you might have one less when the terran push hits you and you lose. If you don't chrono charge you might get attacked at 80% instead of it being done and holding off the MMM push, opposed to your zealots getting kited to death.
Again, this whining comes from diamond and below players where those players aren't even using their MULEs properly, or their larva injects properly, and are not making units at the right time, or following a build order properly, but they feel that everything they do is "harder" and they are just better than their opponent and lost to some reason besides them being bad. Most macro zergs like IdrA and Ret hover around 150-200 apm, it's not like it's that apm intensive to larva inject and build units when they pop.
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I would say that it's a sheer matter of mechanics. At low level of mechanics, Protoss's macro is the easiest (most expensive units). At high level of mechanics however, it becomes the hardest. I would consider myself a good mechanical protoss player (180~230 APM protoss and I use 4 unit control groups): I can for example macro between stutter steps as terran (which is not so easy to do, try it), but I can only check my warpgate timings while stutter stepping my stalkers. You have to actually look away from your army and warp very fast, re-hotkey everything and go back to the battle and you're always a bit afraid to do that.
The reason why Protoss is considered the easiest is that most players (so most posters in this thread I would assume) until very high masters have actually very poor mechanics and most of them have less than 100 APM. For that kind of mechanical skills, Protoss has probably the easiest time making a decent army.
"Lololol, I'm a master zerg and I have 80 APM, Protoss is the easiest of all." At this level, yeah, sure, it's true, Protoss macro is the easiest for slow players, is what I'm trying to say. I have a friend who play random in team games, at about 50-60 APM, and I can tell you that his macro is way better (read: less worse) with Protoss, that's just a fact.
I recently switched from Protoss to Zerg because P was getting too uninteresting to play, and I can tell you that having good macro and mechanics is much less important as protoss. If you miss chronoboosts, you're fine. If you miss larva injects, you're fucked.
I have to say P is the easiest race, sure you still have to understand the little things but the macro is very easy even on 6 bases where as terran you need tons of apm to macro on a ton of bases and to keep control of your army.
Because it's just simpler, and requires less APM? not qqing, but I've played all 3 races, and I can say by Protoss is significantly easier, mechanics and APM wise.
I quoted these messages because they are typical of slow players calling other players slow. No good mechanical players have trouble macroing with their race, be it zerg, terran or protoss because SC2 has not been designed to be very hard mechanically. No one with a minimum of skill finds their races "uninteresting" because there is just so much to to in SC2... Even when I play zerg, I don't miss a single inject if there is no "tough urgency situation" going on, where my mind is too busy and my hands do not follow. You can believe those people if you have like 70 APM, don't bother otherwise, they are not ultra fast gosus. So yeah, when you're slow, Protoss is good, and Terran and Zerg are bad at macroing? Is that it? Do we actually care? Just get faster and move your hands on the keyboard, dammit, it's not that hard. (:D)
Now, watch pro play, like HuK, Mana, or any korean protoss like MC, San or Puzzle. Can you say that they're doing nothing and are just slow fucks abusing the easiest race? Now look at those so called "smart pro terrans" like Sjow and Goody, who average something like 100 APM. Both of them are very good. Can you find Protoss players who are as successful with the same speed? I mean, the only protoss players with that kind of hand speed that come to my mind are NA protosses like Axslav, Incontrol, Minigun and Cruncher, but they are hardly what you would consider top protosses.
I'm rarely amazed at a player's macro in pro games, but man, MC has so much stuff when he plays and manages to reinforce in the middle of a fight, and protoss players know that's a hard thing to do.
Now, time for the disclaimer, mechanics are not all that matters in SC2. I for one am a decent mechanical player (mainly because I'm not your usual ladder player and not coming from BW, I praticed only my mechanics for hours to catch up, forcing me to use different control groups, tap my buildings while having a good minimap awareness, to be able to macro between stutter steps which takes a good amount of muscle memory, and my hands are fast to begin with as I'm a violinist, not everyone will be willing to put that kind of dedication in a game) but I'm probably a terrible SC2 player overall. There is also game plan, game knowledge, decision making and those very important things that come into play.
tl;dr;
Probably the easiest mechanically at low level and sub-125 APM, not at high level.
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This isn't a thread about why toss is the easiest race. This is a thread about why people THINK it is the easiest. Unfortunately there is so much misinformation in here by people who have never even played protoss, that it hasn't gone anywhere. I play toss, but when I switched to zerg for a while, I actually saw it from the other side and understand why people hate on toss. But they really need to step into Toss's shoes (do they wear shoes?) and see how far they get. Because at the highest level tosses are falling left and right at the moment, so something's gotta be harder for them than the other races.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On August 11 2011 08:29 Carwash wrote:
Protoss is unarguably the easiest race to play low masters and below. Sit on 3 base, max out, and go. Every other race has to constantly harass and scout to keep the toss in check. T and Z are also, generally, reactive to toss.
Against zerg it's impossible to win that way even in low diamond. Get in touch with current metagame.
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Why is this not closed. This Thread is killing E-SPORTS. This thread is a joke.
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Its probably just because of the passive nature of the race. Turtling and abusing the deathball are very viable when micro and multitasking are low.
At higher levels it becomes even when terrans and zerg start dropping and learn how to engage the deathball properly.
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On August 11 2011 05:14 HentaiPrime wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171927d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-protosskeyboardsmul4.jpg) and ![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171928d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-forcefield.jpg) now you're set! optional: ![[image loading]](http://www.toyday.co.uk/shop/images/uploads/maracas1.jpg) for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate! that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
lol this is pretty funny, but I think the F and G keys should be switched around. 
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It's because their production is the simplest, chrono boost is very forgiving like forgetting to make probes against a terran you can chrono some out and be ahead, their deathball is easy to get to and then requires minor micro.
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The mechanics/strategies of the race just seem the most straight forward to me. I don't necessarily think they're the easiest race to win with but they have the smallest skill range IMO. It's kind of like the ret pally of SC2 at this point. It's like there's just not enough sexy tactical shit in their arsenal and it gets compensated by having really effective straight forward builds.
Although maybe Protoss players just do their abusive builds more often on NA/EU because the race has less options. I would feel much more compelled to 4gate with toss than 1/1/1 all-in with T because I have so many options that I can do whatever the hell I want to as T which is usually to not all in other than to try it out.
I think that's kind of why P get's overnerfed as well, when the race is doing good I'm pretty sure they're crushing at Diamond/Masters level on blizzard's stat sheet more than they would at the tip top levels of play. The reverse seems to be true for Terran where they under perform in the diamond/masters level (EU/NA) relative to how they good they are theoretically on those maps.
Anyways I don't want to sound like I'm shitting on P players because like I said I don't necessarily think they're the easiest race to win with right now and I certainly respect the good ones.
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On August 11 2011 05:14 HentaiPrime wrote:and now you're set! optional: for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate! that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
Quite possibly the best post I've ever seen.
-Warp gate counter icon (l2macro pls)
- Chrono Boost
- Colossus
ff-a move is not considered micro
t- a move is not considered micro
entire army on one hot key is not considered micro.
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Easiest macro and the least puinshed for using 1 hotkey for entire army. The 1 hotkey thing only matters on lower levels though because better players will punish that.
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These are my experiences. Toss is the easiest to pick up, but harder to control and execute at a diamond+ level. Terran feels hard at first to macro, but has very straightforward army control, and rewards multitasking very well. Zerg is easy to play wrong, hard to play right.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
t- a move is not considered micro
That looks more like terran stuff actually.
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On August 11 2011 08:42 Olsson wrote:
It's because their production is the simplest, chrono boost is very forgiving like forgetting to make probes against a terran you can chrono some out and be ahead, their deathball is easy to get to and then requires minor micro.
Except if you don't chrono them out once your energy hits 25 you are behind because if those probes were out faster the entire time you would have mined significantly more. If you were perfectly chronoing your upgrades they would be out faster than they would be otherwise and that matters in big engagements. That's a hilarious mentality. If you have macro hatches you can inject on both hatcheries when your queen has excess energy. You can also drop as many mules as you want at once. It's exactly the same.
That's the kind of argument from players who don't play exceptionally well, and the reason that pro players often do hilarious things against plat-diamond players like mass raven and still win. Because those players are just bad. None of them are hitting chrono on time, the same way the others don't inject on 25 and drop mules at 50 every time.
I always play people on ladder who are masters and yet all they know how to do is some horribyl executed 1-1-1 that makes me wonder how they ever win with it followed by an immediate rage quit, we'll play again, play a macro game and I'll absolutely slaughter them. Or a zerg who 2 base roach all-ins, gets held off, and flounders completely in the mid and late game. All of these races have horrible players using EZ-mode strategies to get further than they should.
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People would whine no matter what. My 2c is :
Zerg has the hardest macro. Actually IMO, zerg's macro isn't the hardest, just less intuitive if you've played WC3 for example. And zergs require the least microing - their units die so quickly, that it's more of a "when do I attack" and "how do I position my units beforehand" problem than "how do I micro now" one. Except for baneling drops, they do require skill 
Now that we have large maps, Terran becomes incredibly interesting to play. If you don't harass you're at a disadvantage, and harassing requires you to multitask more than any other race - making two or three pronged attacks, microing banshees while doing that, etc. I know, most people would say that defending multipronged attacks is harder than accomplishing one successfully, for a zerg a least. But I think this isn't exactly the case, as when harassing, you're required to make so much damage, that you should be the one microing units at all places better to make it efficient.
As for Protoss - your best strategy involves having one large ball of units. There have been alternatives from time to time, but none has stayed as a solid strategy. Defending drops is laughably easy when compared to doing so with zerg or terran - both HT and DTs make it extremely easy for you. However, I do think that protoss units require this WC3 style micro, for the first time in a Starcraft game. Blinking stalkers, casting feedbacks and storms, morphing archons when there's no energy left, etc. Well, evading storms isn't easy either but yep, Protoss is the micro race.
As a whole, I do think that Protoss is the easiest race to play. However, it's not by a large margin. And even if it was, you shouldn't be insulted by any idiot on the internet. I see that the reason you started this thread is because you got insulted by a random guy with no brain - just don't. I mean, it's his fault choosing a harder race /if it actually is/, and now he's making excuses - what a lame ****. Make fun of him, annoy him and don't take him seriously. The reason I dislike players and casters like Artosis and IdrA is that despite being too vocal about imbalances at the highest level could be beneficial, this hurts the fun of all casual gamers, who get matched against retards listening to those two and having their time spoiled by this same old flaming. And I think when you are a smart person like the two guys mentioned, you hold responsibility to know that 99% of people who are listening to you are retards and would act accordingly. I've been in the DotA community for a while, even playing with pros, and despite the legends of Starcraft players being the most mannered (which stays true because of some really awesome people, who are very few btw), people as a whole are worse in SC2 than they were in DotA ... I think that says it all :D
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modsplease lock
This thread is like a woman in her 30s - not getting any prettier.
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On August 11 2011 08:11 Strayline wrote:
Yes it is true that Zergs get harder when they can actually use their powerful macro mechanics but you can use all that "free apm" that you aren't using to spread creep/inject/set up new bases to harass/feign aggression to throw most zergs at diamond off their game.
And this is exactly how the game balances out. At the highest level, if Protoss were cleaning up the tournaments then the race might well be overpowered. As it currently stands the stats show that it is currently the hardest race to win tournaments with, although that may well just be a shift in the metagame.
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Protoss is the easiest race IMO. I just don't find anything about them to be difficult. Multipronged attacks aren't needed, pressure is less important, they encourage ball play, the mechanics are very easy, colossus are stupid powerful for the micro required, all units are some what forgiving high HP units, and honestly not enough of their units outside the sentry look like they take much skill. Even drops are just a few clicks away for defending. Things like base planning are less important, and thinking about defense as well.
If you look at Terran from an observer stand point you can see every little detail to maximize unit efficiency, and its the ones that do it the best that succeed.
I think in HotS they need to replace the Colossus with the Reaver. I think then Protoss will gain some respect, at least for me. I loved everything about the Reaver but because of the Colossus in SCII I find Protoss to kinda be a joke. I would probably be a random player if not for Protoss just looking boring and easy.
Anyway, I only think Protoss is easiest till about top 100 GM master, after that the skill ceiling for Terran makes Terran the best, and that makes predictable Protoss meh.
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I don't think that there is a person in the whole world who couldn't master all of the races with very little practice. Neither is there a person who wouldn't gladly put on extra value to that practice time by saying that it actually is the hardest thing to do in the whole game.
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On August 11 2011 08:38 Evilmystic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 08:29 Carwash wrote:
Protoss is unarguably the easiest race to play low masters and below. Sit on 3 base, max out, and go. Every other race has to constantly harass and scout to keep the toss in check. T and Z are also, generally, reactive to toss. Against zerg it's impossible to win that way even in low diamond. Get in touch with current metagame.
It's really not...it took me about 5 games of off racing as Protoss (I play diamond terran for the most part) to get the hang of low level PvZ, it's not terribly difficult to 3gate expo, get good enough with forcefields to poke the zerg (to avoid constant droning) and not die to lots of roaches, get colossus, 3 bases, max out, get lots of gateways, attack, remax with blink stalkers, win. It was really boring how often that worked.
Am I saying Protoss is the easiest race to play? Fuck no I think that's retarded, the whole '3 base a-move' thing worked in competitive play for all of a couple of weeks. Am I saying Protoss is the easiest race to play in the lower leagues? Fuck no, I just picked it up quickly because it's not toooo too difficult to go from terran to protoss.
In the lower leagues, you actually don't have to constantly harrass and scout to keep the toss in check, better macro is always king in lower league play. It's a tired saying, but below masters (and in masters tbh) you can always have more units than you do, and if you figure that out then you can win 9 times out of 10.
I have to remind OP though that he should not feel like everyone thinks protoss is easy just because he gets a lot of rage on ladder. Every race gets that, I guarantee you. There's always the fucking dicks who aren't interested in finding out why they lost and find it easier to just go 'skilless a-move race'. I get it as both T and P. TvP is my favourite match up from both sides, and it's always satisfying telling balance whiners that I actually play their race and can beat them with either if they'd like.
Also I have to query the idea that protoss is the a-move race...I actually find it much easier to be precise with gateway units in particular. Colossus, yeah, a-move unit, dull. Gateway units, though, allow (but do not require) a lot of finesse.
EDIT: Is this thread just sanctioned balance whining? Because I thought that was what the 'Letting Off Steam' thread was for?
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EPT
