|
2 base Brood Lord/mass Queen slow push![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zcPQ3.png)
Disclaimer: I am a high Diamond Zerg player, and am working my way to Masters. I've been playing since release (with my first 6 months or so spent on Protoss) and I consider myself an active participant in the community. I will not sit here and claim that I'm an excellent player. These are simply my experiences and I'd like to open this strategy up for some more discussion with players ranked both below and above me. Please feel free to discuss and criticize this build constructively as well as post your own replays for everyone to see.
Recently, a buddy of mine (a fellow Zerg) and I were on a long marathon of 2 vs. 2 ladder games. Eventually, we started to get bored--so we started cheesing. 12 Drone rushing, double 8 pooling, you name it. We started going mass Queen, and built nothing but Queens and Spine Crawlers. It was fun, but we didn't have a ton of success.
The next day we watched the Day[9] Daily #256. This week's Funday Monday was all about mass Queen. Eventually we watched the game where CatZ goes for a mass Queen/Brood Lord slow push in a Zerg vs. Terran. I had also remembered seeing Spanishiwa transition into this slow push in the late game occasionally.
We both hopped on the ladder and started working out a way to 'rush' for this mass Queen/Brood Lord slow push style. After a lot of tinkering, I've found a build that has been working for me. It is by no means perfect, and it might not even be optimal, but it works for me. I'm usually able to push with a good amount (usually around 6-8) Queens and around 5 Brood Lords at the 12-14 minute mark. With some proper Transfuses, a good Creep highway, and good Queen control, I've found this push to be very difficult to stop in the mid-game, so I'd like to share it with the community. The strength in this build is that almost no one predicts this type of push this early on, and Brood Lords can last so long and kill such large armies with good Transfuses.
BUILD ORDER
As I said, this is by no means concrete or perfect, so I'd like to hear anyone else's findings with their own builds.
The whole concept behind the build is to rush to Brood Lords while using pure Queens and Spine Crawlers defensively in the early game. You want to minimize the amount of Zerglings you make as well--utilize Queens to defend against both ground and air units. Good scouting is very important as well--you'll need to know if your opponent will be opening aggressively so you can respond appropriately with Spine Crawlers.
This push is a low supply, micro-intensive attack. I've also found that you can get away with relatively low Drone saturation to pull this off (by Zerg standards). Many of these instructions for the build will be timing and Vespene Gas-based, because depending on your opponent's aggression level, every game will demand different Drone supply.
+ Show Spoiler +- 10 Spawning Pool
At first, I started getting a Spawning Pool at 10 supply to be able to get more Queens faster. It soon became much more than that. After scouting my 10 pool, many players react defensively--which is perfect for this build, because it minimizes the chances of early aggression.
- 10 Overlord
- 13 Queen
After making 3 Drones immediately after your Overlord on 10 pops, you'll have just enough for a Queen when the Spawning Pool completes.
- 17 Extractor
Right when your Extractor finishes, fully saturate it.
- 16 Overlord
- @100% Queen: Queen
Use your first Queen's starting energy to inject larva. Use this larva for Drones.
- @100% Queen: Lair
Now, use both of your Queen's energy to spread Creep. Later on when you get the energy, drop down 2 more Creep tumors. I've found that 4 tumors is usually optimal. You'll want to keep on top of your Creep spread all game to create a Creep highway that you'll need later on. You should have 100 Vespene Gas for the Lair as soon as the second Queen is finished.
- @~50% Lair: Extractor
- @~50% Lair: Hatchery
You'll now expand and take your second Vespene Gas geyser. This should all be around ~22 supply.
- @100% Lair: Spire
- @100% Lair: Queen
You should just have 200 Vespene Gas just as your Lair finishes. Please note: I've also experimented with placing an Infestation Pit down first, and I still will be trying this in the future. The reasoning behind this is that once the Infestation Pit finishes, you can begin your Hive and Spire, which will both finish at the same time. I've found that the Spire first works just fine as well, but if you want to throw your opponent off or you don't have the 200 Vespene Gas, try the Infestation Pit first.
- @100% Hatchery: Queen
Transfer a few Drones over to your new second base as well--remember, scouting is important here to detect a need for Spine Crawlers.
- @100 Vespene Gas: Infestation Pit
Your next 100 Vespene Gas after your Spire goes to the Infestation Pit. See my note above for explanation for going Infestation Pit first.
- @100% Infestation Pit: Hive
- @100% Infestation Pit: Extractor
- @100% Queen: Queen
You'll want to continually be producing a Queen whenever possible--while your Hive is being researched, you'll use your second base to create Queens.
- @100% Hive: Greater Spire
As your Greater Spire is being researched, you'll want to begin producing Corruptors.
- @100% Greater Spire: morph Brood Lords
At around the 12 minute mark, you should be able to have around 4-5 Brood Lords and 6 or 7 Queens. This is the time to push. Your Creep highway will serve your Queens well. While engaging the enemy, it's important to keep these key factors in mind:
- Queen positioning
Keep your Queens behind the Brood Lords--you'll need them safe from harm's way. You'll need them for Transfuses on your Brood Lords. Bring them forward if the situation calls for it (i.e. Brood Lords are being rushed down via Blink or Stim, anti-air is near, or extra DPS is needed).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HnZTG.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N4nep.png)
- Queen energy
A Queen's max energy cap is set at 200. Each Transfuse uses 50 energy, so an energy-maxed Queen can perform a total of 4 Transfuses. Each Transfuse heals a max of 125 health. Each Brood Lord has 225 points of health. This means that you should be Transfusing a Brood Lord when it reaches around the 50% health mark for optimal use of your Queen's energy. If you've got 7 Queens that are near full on energy, you've got about 25-28 Transfuses available to you. Good Transfuse usage is key to success here, so be constantly watching your Brood Lord's health and have your Queens selected.
- Brood Lord positioning
Never position your Brood Lords directly over an army. You want your Brood Lord's sieging a position AWAY from buildings and unit producing structures. Running your Brood Lords nilly-willy into your opponent is the fastest way to lose here. Every Brood Lord is precious here, so do your absolute best to keep each and every one alive for as long as possible.
REPLAYS
Zerg vs. Zerg
fabiosonfire vs. PappaChu (Metalopolis)
This was an excellent game--my opponent attacks early on, and I barely hang on using Queens, Spine Crawlers, and minimal Zerglings. I continue with my plan as my opponent opted for Hydralisks, pushed, used Transfuse to save my Brood Lords, and won.
fabiosonfire vs. Avatard (Shakuras Plateau)
My opponent here opted for an Infestor/Hydralisk play. I push at the 11 minute mark and wipe him out. He sends units over to my base, initiating a base race, but I defend with Brood Lords morphed at my base.
Zerg vs. Terran
fabiosonfire vs. Hiei (The Shattered Temple)
Here my Terran opponent is just completely befuddled by the build and gets angry, so that's a bonus.
Zerg vs. Protoss
fabiosonfire vs. Paeblits (Xel'Naga Caverns)
Here my opponent scouted my 10 pool, reacted defensively, and transitioned into Void Ray/Phoenix harass which my Queens shut down. At around the 13 minute mark I attack, leaving some Corruptors in my composition to deal with any air units he may have still had. He leaves almost immediately seeing what my army is capable of.
fabiosonfire vs. Breadmaster (The Shattered Temple)
I actually feel like I played pretty terribly here. I pushed a little later than normal and he nearly holds it off due to Blink Stalkers and my poor control, but I still pull it off pretty convincingly. He even asks 'how did you do this?' We spoke after the game and he confirmed that the 10 pool nearly made him play cautiously, and the Infestation Pit first confused him.
I will be adding more replays for each matchup very shortly. I am a university student so I will find time after class to get some more games up to show everyone. I encourage everyone to try this out on the ladder and post your replays!
|
Even though i play T, i may try this out 
I love well thought out all ins
|
You cannot beat any 2 base timing with no tech. Unless you show replays of you holding off a 2 base timing without zergling speed, or any gas units, then this build is completely unviable and totally mute.
I'm not even going to get to the actual push, since you should be dead already, but even so, 60 marines with medivac support beats it. In ZvZ, any roach timing beats this. In ZvP, any warpgate all in beats it.
|
On July 27 2011 02:00 Micket wrote:
You cannot beat any 2 base timing with no tech. Unless you show replays of you holding off a 2 base timing without zergling speed, or any gas units, then this build is completely unviable and totally mute.
I'm not even going to get to the actual push, since you should be dead already, but even so, 60 marines with medivac support beats it. In ZvZ, any roach timing beats this. In ZvP, any warpgate all in beats it.
I disagree. I've held off Roach timings and Warpgate all-ins while doing this build. I wasn't as experienced with the build yet, so I don't want to show the replays--but it can definitely be done with Zerglings, Spine Crawlers, and Queens, believe me. I haven't had many Terrans go for a pure Marine composition against me yet, since most don't scout properly and if they do, they see my Infestation Pit and go for a more normal Marine/Tank/Marauder mix.
I usually never die while I'm in the process of teching to the Brood Lords--as I said, all it takes is a bunch of Spine Crawlers and Queens to get the job done, defensively early on. I think in the first Zerg vs. Zerg replay my opponent attacks early on with a Zergling/Roach timing and I hold. I'll hit the ladder hard today and see if I can come up with more examples.
Scouting is super important as well. You need to know when/if early aggression is coming so you can prepare with Zerglings and Spine Crawlers. Also, I've been doing this in all match-ups, but who knows? Maybe it's better tailored for Zerg vs. Protoss than the others? I'm not even sure yet.
|
Ah i watched the zvt. Your opponent was a retard. He didnt pressure at all when he couldve just killed you with an a move attack for a long time. He took a 3rd before you. He had no vikes when he shouldve known BL were coming.
Could you post a replay of you beating a competent T?
EDIT: also, 'usually never' lol
|
LovE.801
I'm a masters T and I would be glad to play against this so that you may have some replays to post.
Overall looks like a fun strat. Reminds me of when I would Gaurdian rush in Sc1 
|
On July 27 2011 02:06 Squigly wrote:
Ah i watched the zvt. Your opponent was a retard. He didnt pressure at all when he couldve just killed you with an a move attack for a long time. He took a 3rd before you. He had no vikes when he shouldve known BL were coming.
Could you post a replay of you beating a competent T?
EDIT: also, 'usually never' lol
Yes, I will hit the ladder today after class and try to get some more good replays up.
|
Cool, good luck. I really hope you win a lot with this XD
|
I'm Fabio's Zerg friend who's been doing this with him. I know it seems kind of ridiculous, but with proper transfuse micro, this can take on a freakin' gigantic army and have almost nothing die.
I think my favourite thing about this build is that it's incredibly out of the ordinary, making it pretty damned difficult to scout. As long as you play defensively enough to push back early aggression, this build kicks major ass. Definitely worth trying.
|
On July 27 2011 02:03 fabioisonfire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:00 Micket wrote:
You cannot beat any 2 base timing with no tech. Unless you show replays of you holding off a 2 base timing without zergling speed, or any gas units, then this build is completely unviable and totally mute.
I'm not even going to get to the actual push, since you should be dead already, but even so, 60 marines with medivac support beats it. In ZvZ, any roach timing beats this. In ZvP, any warpgate all in beats it. I disagree. I've held off Roach timings and Warpgate all-ins while doing this build.
Remember that you play in diamond league where 2000 minerals at 10 minutes, 80 apm and 5 supply blocks is a frequent occurrence (I obs friend's games). You holding these pushes is no evidence whatsoever for this build's viability against actual decent players.
Our of curiosity, how do you deal with a tank marine push or a blueflame drop?
|
your Country52797 Posts
What about ghosts? EMP the queens, snipe the broodlords.
To the above poster, I'm platinum and I never have 2k minerals before the 18 minute mark (only then if I'm maxed)
|
At around what time in the game would this attack likely hit around the front of your opponents base
|
On July 28 2011 02:57 TehTemplar wrote:
What about ghosts? EMP the queens, snipe the broodlords.
To the above poster, I'm platinum and I never have 2k minerals before the 18 minute mark (only then if I'm maxed)
I don't see why this is relevant.
|
Interesting. May try this in a ZvZ custom.
|
On July 28 2011 02:53 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:03 fabioisonfire wrote:On July 27 2011 02:00 Micket wrote:
You cannot beat any 2 base timing with no tech. Unless you show replays of you holding off a 2 base timing without zergling speed, or any gas units, then this build is completely unviable and totally mute.
I'm not even going to get to the actual push, since you should be dead already, but even so, 60 marines with medivac support beats it. In ZvZ, any roach timing beats this. In ZvP, any warpgate all in beats it. I disagree. I've held off Roach timings and Warpgate all-ins while doing this build. Remember that you play in diamond league where 2000 minerals at 10 minutes, 80 apm and 5 supply blocks is a frequent occurrence (I obs friend's games). You holding these pushes is no evidence whatsoever for this build's viability against actual decent players. Our of curiosity, how do you deal with a tank marine push or a blueflame drop?
He plays at diamond, not silver...
I think this is a very interesting build, tough I'd never use it in ladder play (maybe in a Bo7 to play with my opponents mind)
|
On July 28 2011 03:10 Auross wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:53 arbitrageur wrote:On July 27 2011 02:03 fabioisonfire wrote:On July 27 2011 02:00 Micket wrote:
You cannot beat any 2 base timing with no tech. Unless you show replays of you holding off a 2 base timing without zergling speed, or any gas units, then this build is completely unviable and totally mute.
I'm not even going to get to the actual push, since you should be dead already, but even so, 60 marines with medivac support beats it. In ZvZ, any roach timing beats this. In ZvP, any warpgate all in beats it. I disagree. I've held off Roach timings and Warpgate all-ins while doing this build. Remember that you play in diamond league where 2000 minerals at 10 minutes, 80 apm and 5 supply blocks is a frequent occurrence (I obs friend's games). You holding these pushes is no evidence whatsoever for this build's viability against actual decent players. Our of curiosity, how do you deal with a tank marine push or a blueflame drop? He plays at diamond, not silver... I think this is a very interesting build, tough I'd never use it in ladder play (maybe in a Bo7 to play with my opponents mind)
I never claimed that he played in silver.
I wasn't dissing on his play at all. I've never seen him play. All I'm saying is that holding pushes against diamond players is not a useful piece of information w.r.t. determining whether a build is viable at high levels. That's the extent of meaning that I want you to derive from my post.
And given my obs experience, 2000 excess minerals is quite easy for a Terran diamond to achieve before 10 minutes if he gets the gold base and is forced to multitask and doesn't add production buildings. 5 supply blocks is completely reasonable for a diamond. Many diamonds have 80 APM.
|
Sounds imba T_T i hope i dont face this
|
I've faced this a few times, one guy did it really fast as reactionary to seeing immortals. I just thought he was bad with his late third, so I took my own. Lo and behold he pushed across the map with roach/queen/broodlord and killed me. I said gg wp, because he just made himself look like a bad player and then killed me.
Then I was wary from there on and just payed more attention to hive timing, and then a few more people did this to me, and I killed them all with Blink Stalker/Colossus. You just blink forward if you see a BL to pick off, and then back away. You can also threaten to counter attack, and since queen//broodlord is so slow it's really hard for the other guy to punish you for doing so, especially if you take a far away third.
|
So uhh... what do you do if the opponent denies creep tumor regularly? Do you walk across a map with queens off creep and broods? How do you deal with drops, or counterattacks with the slowest army imaginable? Slow zerglings, queens, and spines can defend pretty well early game but they're incredibly larva inefficient, and the amount of spines you'd need to defend everything worth defending against drops or counterattacks means you'd never have any drones.
Seems like a fun, cute strat, but I don't see this working at any high level.
|
hahaha lol :D
i hope i face this, 4 emps going down and its an instant win.
|
I think when more refined this could be pretty lethal and maybe a viable timing attack. I think that there should be a set number of queens and broodlords that you have in mind with a roach warren and roach speed upgraded for when you push out. This way while the attack is commencing you can either take a 3rd (and probably a 4th) and mass up on roaches to cover any counter attacks.
The problem I could see is if Toss or Terran is doing a timing or has just build up a strong amount of units, sees your attack, and instantly counters not leaving you enough to build up any defenses. In this situation its time to play hide the expansion and hope you can out micro and get to all your opponents structures before they take out your limited amount.
|
For pretty much the reasons Cecil mentioned, I don't like this in ZvP.
In ZvT however, I prefer Broodlords over Infestors. And since most of my gas is dumped in the BL, Queens are a natural compliment. Only AFTER I get a sizable BL/Queen army will I double-back and get my infestors out. The initial push feels a lot stronger than the standard BL/infestor pushes everybody else is doing.
In ZvZ, I will do the standard roach/infestor ball, but I tend to hover around 180 supply rather than going full up to 200 so that when I get to hive tech, I can transition into a BL/Corruptor/Queen/Infestor/Roach/Ling/Kitchen-Sink composition. It works rather nicely.
I lost my replay archive when I upgraded my PC, but if I come across any late-game ZvTs or ZvZs this week, I'll give some replays of mid-high master play to support OPs topic.
As far as the timings though... it really deepends what your opponent is doing. If he's going mech as terran, or just being too passive as Zerg, you're fine to rush for this comp on 2-base.
If he's being aggressive at all though, you need to have some sort of mid-game plan. In ZvT, I most-often end up getting this comp on 3-5 bases. ZvZ is 2-4.
|
Definitely an interesting build. I may give this a try soon!
|
I can only have opinoin about TvZ so here it is:
I think this will not work vs good opponent i can see mass drops beeing a problem,any mech play like hellion,ghost,thor(emp+shift click on hellions on thors) and even your things are so slow that i think its possible to nuke them offcreap lulz.
|
This seems easily scoutable with a single observer for P, and a decently quick transition into getting some High Templars would decimate your queens. I haven't watched the replays yet, and it seems quite interesting, but I'm just pointing out that Feedback is a huge thing you need to watch out for.
|
On July 28 2011 04:58 iBRomano wrote:
This seems easily scoutable with a single observer for P, and a decently quick transition into getting some High Templars would decimate your queens. I haven't watched the replays yet, and it seems quite interesting, but I'm just pointing out that Feedback is a huge thing you need to watch out for.
I've been going Infestation Pit first, and then denying all scouting from Protoss--I let them scout the Infestation Pit, so most players think I'm going for some kind of fast burrowed Infestor play.
As far as Terrans going for Ghosts and EMPing me, I've never had it happen. Most Terrans I play don't even tech to Ghosts by the time I'm pushing. (Around the 11-13 minute mark.)
|
On July 28 2011 03:29 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've faced this a few times, one guy did it really fast as reactionary to seeing immortals. I just thought he was bad with his late third, so I took my own. Lo and behold he pushed across the map with roach/queen/broodlord and killed me. I said gg wp, because he just made himself look like a bad player and then killed me.
Then I was wary from there on and just payed more attention to hive timing, and then a few more people did this to me, and I killed them all with Blink Stalker/Colossus. You just blink forward if you see a BL to pick off, and then back away. You can also threaten to counter attack, and since queen//broodlord is so slow it's really hard for the other guy to punish you for doing so, especially if you take a far away third.
I face this scenario quite a bit--I try to almost force my opponent into being greedy so my push will be more effective.
I haven't had as much trouble in the past with pure mass Blink Stalkers, but it depends on my Queen energy levels and Transfuse micro. However, when Collosus are in the mix, things get a bit more tricky.
|
What can beat this? Roach/Hydra? And what do you transition into if the push fails?
|
Late beta I did a lot of late game queen play since the numbers on transfuse seemed really good for a unit that cost no gas. It's nice as a gimmick but it won't hold up against someone who knows how to deal with it.
I do think adding queens into an army late game that has broods can be useful, but only getting queens and broods runs into 3 main problems.
First of all, and most importantly, your mobility is very lacking. If you completely catch your opponent off guard and they realize they can't beat your army, they can just counter attack. Similarly, it's difficult to hold off certain harassment with queen/broods.
Secondly, you can't transfuse to save a unit if it dies instantly. Focus fire from vikings or blink stalkers can make transfuse pretty much useless, and it's much easier for the other side to remax than it is for you. They can just come in, snipe off some broods, and then retreat.
Lastly, feedback/EMP crushes this. Very very difficult to prevent queens from being hit by these (moreso than infestors) because of how big the unit is, how many you need, and how slow they are.
|
United States22883 Posts
On July 28 2011 03:55 Mattchew wrote:
I think when more refined this could be pretty lethal and maybe a viable timing attack
Timing attacks don't happen at the 13+ minute mark.
While I love the enthusiasm of the OP, this is just not a very viable strategy outside of lower levels of play.
Your low mobility not only means early-mid harassment can be especially potent, but it also means that you have to be extremely passive and will be slow to expand, since you need your critical mass of queens/transfuses to hold off real attacks. On top of that, an opponent who sees this will always be able to out-expand you since you have no map control and no form of aggression.
Rushing to any sort of tech always leaves you extremely vulnerable. You have no mid-game transition to help you stay alive until the G. Spire is done, or to help you get a third.
Your army composition just isn't very strong. Like Cecil pointed out, your Broodlords can be one shot by stalkers/vikings, which completely nullifies the queens, and good creep denial makes your eventual push much, much slower.
While it's true some people like TLO have experimented with mass queens/spine crawlers, it's gimmicky and they aren't rushing for tech to save themselves, they're simply attacking quickly with the queens/crawlers.
I'm glad this build has worked for you, but for these reasons and a few others it's not really appropriate for the Strategy forums. It's not very sound, and you're simply relying on your opponent being passive or confused, which is not a good way to play and doesn't last very long.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
