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On May 10 2011 06:19 1Eris1 wrote:
I like the idea of a 30 second build Colony for 50 minerals and then you can transform it in 20 seconds to either a Spore or Spine, for 25/50 minerals respectively. That way, it wouldn't make zerg completely immune to rush. (And they still would invest minerals in something they might not need), but it would be really helpful vs the variety of all ins faced.
Yeah I like this as well. You wouldn't need to make a ton of them, just a few that you can morph to buy time for your other defenses (additional colonies into crawlers, units)
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On May 10 2011 06:20 Dental Floss wrote:
I'm solidly in the "let zerg make overseers at hatch tech" camp. Then instead of getting zspeed you could opt for a OS to see whats going on. Give them their spells at lair tech and you'd see more corrupt or whatever that spell is called because your OS would have saved up energy.
This requires the zerg to make a heavy sacrifice in the same way as T (scan) or P (wasted robo time).
Yeah I guess that would fix it too. I personally think a reactionary spine fix is better (except it would make zvz kinda suck lol). The spine fix would make the game more dramatic and cool as players rushed to attack and rushed to get defense up. As opposed to just cool scouting and already being ready >.<
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On May 10 2011 05:18 Grumbels wrote:
Zerg has base defense in creep tumors now, the speed bonus helps a lot. Also, queens double as base defense too. Given this, there is less of a need for instantly built static defense.
Furthermore, what do you think happens to the game when you give zerg powerful reactive defensive tools? They will drone even more and the game will be even more about how many drones a zerg can get away with. At least now they have to pre-make spine crawlers, so zerg is encouraged to at least get some defenses or units instead of just drones.
And also, if you want spine crawlers to have less root time, just say so and don't hide it behind a silly idea like copying a brood war design unto sc2. Or more generally speaking, ask for the spine crawler to have a lower build time, since that's functionally mostly the same.
Zerg should not have to blindly make spine crawlers or static defense because they're scouting can't find out what build the toss/terran is doing. The whole point of the OP is that Zerg can split up the build time by making creep colonies, and then morphing them so spines when he sees the Toss/Terran push out.
Watch SC1 TvZ. In almost every pro match I see, the Terran moves out with his first group of M&M's. This forces the Zerg to make 1-3 sunken colonies and possibly even some zerglings. I don't understand how the same logic couldn't apply to SC2 in this case. If you're so worried about the Zerg making no defenses/drones, then push out with some units and force the Zerg to make zerglings and spines. Your statement about how Zergs can just make drones if they have a reactionary defense is just blatantly false.
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It would actually be quite effective because you could choose either spores or spines as well as uproot them and put them where you want, so it would be more efficient than BW because you don't have to choose their placement before you choose which one to get.
But still, if you get a creep colony blindly in BW, why not get Spines blindly in SC2? Sure, you don't get to get it partially built before choosing spine or spore, but having spores at your front isn't entirely useful except for detection, so in BW I don't see how that was a huge advantage unless they were rushing DTs.
But I do think the morphing like BW was better. I think combined with the ability to root/uproot defensive structures (and perhaps a drop in spine root time as well), it would make a stronger reaction-based defense for Zerg, allowing them to get just what they need when they need it rather than just turtling up in a more Terran fashion. Very Zerglike, it rewards the type of skills that make Zerg players successful already.
I think it would be pretty good without being too OP... It would save a few minerals for a time but you'd still lose the drone and some minerals, I don't think it would be OP, but I think it would help Zerg be a little more flexible defensively.
Still, proxy Spines in ZvZ or something like that might become too strong, even though it adds to the same amount of time, you won't have to wait for all the money in order to begin making it, and then the remainder of the money you can save up while it's building. Not entirely sure if that would affect it, it might not if it's more of the pool time that players wait for rather than minerals. I haven't played enough ZvZs, I'm not really familiar with it.
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On May 10 2011 06:14 dave333 wrote:
The about of misinformation of this thread kind of disturbs me. Yes it is true that toss/terran scouting isn't significantly better than zergs in terms of getting into a base, but the difference is that they actually have builds that are safe to everything except for things they can obviously scout. Between wall ins and force fields, marines and stalkers and sentries, a terran and protoss can be safe against anything as long as they play conservatively. They do not need to do a significant amount of scouting.
This is not the case for zerg. There is no buffer for zerg (FFs or wallins and repairing scvs with bunkers, floating a CC out). Zergs also lack a unit like the marine or stalker that is pretty all around. Zerg requires difference responses to different attacks, and not knowing what is coming will get you killed. This is not the case for protoss and terran.
That is the essential crux of the issue when it comes to scouting. Zerg actually need the scouting because they don't have safe builds.
The sad thing is, no matter how many times this is said, there will always be idiots that say things like "QQ MOAR, Toss Scouting just as bad" or "MAEK MORE QUENZ, DEY R RLY GUD 4 150 MINERALS" while ignoring their piss poor damage and near zero offensive usefulness.
The issues with Zerg early game have more to do with Blizzard's retarded idea to give all the races production boosts that are available at tier 1 while simultaneously removing Zerg's cost effective Zerglings and tier 1 Anti Air.
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So what if it were like this?
Spore crawlers cost 75 minerals and take 30 seconds to build.
Spine crawlers cost 100 minerals and take 50 seconds to build.
They could give Spore crawlers the ability to morph into a Spine Crawler for 25 minerals. It would take 20 seconds.
And just for the hell of it, spine crawlers could morph into spore crawlers too, for the same price.
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idrA and day9 agreed there should be no all purpose build. idrA said that would also be bad game design.
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On the scouting issue atleast against terran as soon as zerglings are finished and speed done zerg controlls the map period (unless terran opens BF hellions and that impacts other things and roaches and well placed queens nullify them) so those speedlings should be able to intercept any SCV or probe if your dilligent searching for them, The number of times Ive left an SCV behind the nat after a pool first opening and not had it die while i watch the nat build is quite high.. Now i have been in the position where i have scanned and seen EVERY tech building zerg has clumped up in one nice scan sized ball and in other times seen a spawning pool and thats it at a similar point in the game so scan is not perfect and denying atleast a terran some scouting is not that difficult if your paying attention and searching the back of your mineral line as for being reactionary see my above post.
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On May 10 2011 06:23 Gfire wrote:
It would actually be quite effective because you could choose either spores or spines as well as uproot them and put them where you want, so it would be more efficient than BW because you don't have to choose their placement before you choose which one to get.
But still, if you get a creep colony blindly in BW, why not get Spines blindly in SC2? Sure, you don't get to get it partially built before choosing spine or spore, but having spores at your front isn't entirely useful except for detection, so in BW I don't see how that was a huge advantage unless they were rushing DTs.
But I do think the morphing like BW was better. I think combined with the ability to root/uproot defensive structures (and perhaps a drop in spine root time as well), it would make a stronger reaction-based defense for Zerg, allowing them to get just what they need when they need it rather than just turtling up in a more Terran fashion. Very Zerglike, it rewards the type of skills that make Zerg players successful already.
I think it would be pretty good without being too OP... It would save a few minerals for a time but you'd still lose the drone and some minerals, I don't think it would be OP, but I think it would help Zerg be a little more flexible defensively.
Still, proxy Spines in ZvZ or something like that might become too strong, even though it adds to the same amount of time, you won't have to wait for all the money in order to begin making it, and then the remainder of the money you can save up while it's building. Not entirely sure if that would affect it, it might not if it's more of the pool time that players wait for rather than minerals. I haven't played enough ZvZs, I'm not really familiar with it.
2-3 drones will stop a spine from completing as long as you get them on it reasonably fast and protect them, I don't see how two-tiered construction would change that except that the spine could start slightly sooner so you would need to pull drones slightly sooner.
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On May 10 2011 06:25 Drazzyo wrote:
idrA and day9 agreed there should be no all purpose build. idrA said that would also be bad game design.
it is not an all purpose build. you will still end up behind if the opponent chooses to play economically and you built that creep colony and you still have to scout regardless of the fact if it's now a creep colony first or not.
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On May 10 2011 06:25 Drazzyo wrote:
idrA and day9 agreed there should be no all purpose build. idrA said that would also be bad game design.
That isn't really what the thread is about, past the first few pages. It's turned into more of a debate on reactionary defense vs better scouting.
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On May 10 2011 05:57 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:32 InstantKarma wrote:On May 10 2011 05:28 Derez wrote:On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
IdrA mentioned that at least one of the two following statements has to be true:
-) You are able to scout anything what your opponent is doing
-) You have an all purpose build that is able to fend off everything
In my opinion this makes perfect sense, but neither of those two is the case right now. IdrA already suggested making overlord speed hatch tech with reduced costs, which would satisfy statement one.
I disagree with the core concept of the two statements. Neither T or P have the ability to scout everything their opponent is doing (in the relevant early game all-in timeframe), nor do they have entirely 'safe' builds. Imperfect information and 'unsafe' builds are part of the game, and part of the fun/excitement. If you truly want one of these statements to be true, there's a whole lot more to change then just zerg. Terran's have scan and protoss have hallucination. These allow them to thoroughly scout their opponent at a small cost pretty early in the game. Zerg do not have anything equivalent until later in the game. I think the solution would be to put the overlord speed upgrade on tier 1. It would be about equal to the cost and utility of scan and hallucinations. Scan's are limited, and very expensive, especially early game (the earliest you'll see a scan in a normal game would be around 6:30?), and there is no guarantee you see what you want to see (especially in TvT and TvP, but even in TvZ it's very possible to hide buildings from scans fairly effectively). Scan's do not give you full information, and they shouldn't. As for hallucinations: As far as I know , hallucinations finish at the earliest around the 7:30 min mark? This is already fairly late to spot certain all-ins, not to mention that hallucination is only viable in a few select builds (3 gate expo, which has been proven by now to be not that safe at all, even with 'full information' from hallu). Honestly, the difference between the different races isn't as big as people make it out to be. Some builds just rely on being not scoutable, because otherwise they wouldn't be viable.
Scan's can't see everything but they always can gather enough info to clue in a terran onto all-ins. The number of drones on the mineral line or the number on the gas are a big give away. Also, earlier zerg all-ins require the zerg to stay on one-base. If a zerg stays on one-base for longer than usual it is 99% chance of an all-in. This makes it much easier for terran and protoss to scout early zerg all-ins so it is okay for the hallucination or scan to come later. Zerg is vulnerable to a wide range of economical and aggressive builds early in the game that they cannot scout.
Zerg's are left blind guessing which is bad for the game. I think putting the overlord speed upgrade on tier 1 would be a good solution.
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Does anyone else think it would help if spawn crawlers spawned broodlings upon death? Also, similar to terran building upgrades, how useful would an upgrade to increase broodling duration be? Would it make brood lords overpowered?
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On May 10 2011 06:25 Drazzyo wrote:
idrA and day9 agreed there should be no all purpose build. idrA said that would also be bad game design.
Its not about an all purpose build as there will never be one, it just increases you early game defense with less sacrifice and more versatility than you can atm were it is impossible as pretty much no map has 50 second rush distance.
I would love to have a "creep crawler" to have an easier time vs cheese. I would be happy if they just made into the standard 40 seconds instead of the stupid 50 seconds.
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On May 10 2011 06:33 atarianimo wrote:
Does anyone else think it would help if spawn crawlers spawned broodlings upon death? Also, similar to terran building upgrades, how useful would an upgrade to increase broodling duration be? Would it make brood lords overpowered?
that's cool when spine crawlers are done building but we're not worried about how strong they are, we're worried about how difficult they are to get in time to defend a push.
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On May 10 2011 06:08 Beef Noodles wrote:Please someone who plays all three races explain this to me!I will be as unbiased as I possibly can (read: still a little zerg biased). I only play at master level zerg/toss  but it's just so clear to me that toss have to worry about maybe 2-3 things early game (all of which are easily scoutable if you know what you are looking for) Zerg have to worry about 5-6 things (but with zergs terrible scouting you can normally narrow it down to 2-3 each game). But that is still 2-3. You often have to react differently, so it forces zerg to guess. We are not calling zerg UP. We are calling zerg a race of coin flippers. If toss/terran is all-ining or being highly aggressive, and we (zergs) guess correct, toss/terran is often screwed. But that isn't good game design. We don't care if zergs are winning or losing, the point is we are guessing! That's stupid. My question to this thread: why would it be a bad thing to allow fast spine/spore build time so that zergs could be REACTIONARY instead of preemptively have to guess if they need defense? I'm completely fine for buffing protoss/terran offensive units *IF* the spine buff makes zerg defense too strong. It isn't about strong or not strong, its about eliminating guessing. Please someone explain to me why that would be a bad thing?
Because it's not "guessing." Believe it or not, there are tells in the Protoss' play that you are not personally able to see. It may require scouting the workers in his natural with a sneaky overlord, running 5 lings into his wall to see what he kills you with, or simply sitting outside his base with a ling. Even then, though, there is a good deal of educated guessing in what he is doing. Every other race must deal with the same thing.
Even being a "reactionary" race shouldn't entitle you to win a game, or even just gain a large advantage, just by memorizing a response flow chart. It's not like SC2 is like BW in the sense that 90% of winning is in the execution. In SC2, execution is so easy that it has to be radically adjusted every 1-2 months.
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Calgary25986 Posts
Has anyone brought up how this was different in BW? Were allins weaker? Did they come later? Did people just resign themselves to playing "standard"? Were builds solid enough to absorb all-ins?
Because Zergs in BW were dealing with the exact same problems and still did fine.
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I think they could do some cool stuff with two creation schemes for creep colonies. Specifically, a zerg can either build one straight from an unused creep tumor but the resulting creep colony is immobile, or you can build one with a drone that is mobile and can also be used to spread creep wherever it is planted.
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Great thread/discussion. I feel like it would be better game design to allow Zergs better early-game scouting instead of faster crawlers.
Liked IdrA's idea of Overlord Speed on Hatchery tech, but 100/100 may be too prohibitive at that point in the game.
I shouldn't have to send in 2 Overlords from different angles to MAYBE see what my opponent is up to, and whether or not I do get valuable scouting information I'll still lose both Overlords.
When I played Random I always lol'd at Zerg players when I'd show up with my Marauder/Hellion timing and they'd have Spores in their mineral lines because I'd denied that Overlord.
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On May 10 2011 05:49 Vetrocide wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:32 Treemonkeys wrote:
Zerg scouting is actually really fucking good. Between overlord spread and creep spread zerg can have vision of nearly the entire map at times. What is the trade off for this, if not a weakened ability to scout *inside* the opponents base? Have you even read this thread? Its about EARLY game scouting, which is also when zerg is weak. Overlord spread is only possible once you got lair and even tho you have creep spread all over the map, you dont have time to react to it. I can have creep at a terrans ramp fWhen he moves out I dont have time to react to it because build time of defensive structures are way too long. And if I DO build lots of lings IN CASE he is going to attack, and he doesnt im far behind, and most times even if you do deal with the push with your lings, you end up behind aswell, overlords are useless aswell pre lair. so no, zerg scouting is not ''really fucking good'' As idrA stated about LosirA vs Scfou. He knew the push was coming and he made enough lings to deal with it easily, but because he had too many lings he ended up behind anyways.
Well you have to trade off some things for others, I don't think they could change the overlord without making it too powerful late game. Zerg speedlings are also really good early game scouts, making it easy to control the towers, constantly check the ramp, and deny scouting. There are also ways to make use of "too many lings", it is not so cut and dry and figured out like some people think.
When you add up zerg early game scouting options I think it is quite adequate:
Float overlords on edges of base to check gas and buildings.
Keep speedlings outside of ramp to know the instant opponent tries to move out or expo.
Poke speedlings up ramp to spot as much tech and unit composition as possible.
Steal gas to reduce the amount of options to worry about or prepare for.
Sac an overlord or two around the 5:30 mark for a potential gold mine of information and enough time to react to it.
This is really not enough? "It's not like BW" Yes, but zerg can still win. How is this unfair for zerg? What pushes are we talking about that are too difficult to scout? 4 gate nexus cancel?
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EPT
