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On May 10 2011 05:31 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:14 Beef Noodles wrote:On May 10 2011 05:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think the the core of Idra's argument is that he does not like the fact that there is a *chance* element to the game which is really a fundamental part of the game. With fog of war comes limited information which brings incomplete decision making and chance. No race has perfect scouting, scan can miss the correct area, observer can be detected and shot down, overlord can be shot down? What is the difference?
Idra wants a game with no fog of war where it is a pure mechanics race and there is no chance at all for the "lesser" player to win. What zerg all ins can be hidden as well as the terran and protoss all ins? Zerg has less all ins, they are harder to hide, and they are mostly negated by simple wall offs (maybe 1 to 2 bunkers). Yes other races have limited information, but they are not punished for it nearly as often as zerg. Every Zerg all-in can be as effectively hidden as Protoss and Terran all-in. Are you forgetting that Zerg almost gain complete map control by default within the first 5 minutes of the game? That is a HUGE advantage to denying scouting opportunities in the beginning of the game. Also, there is no big red sign for a Zerg all-in beyond "he's still on one base by 5 minutes" or "that's a lot of X!" Tech buildings for Zerg are merely a tell of what COULD be, but not even close to a sign of what units he has. On the contrary, a scouted factory/starport/rax with any addon or lack thereof is a GIGANTIC tell as to what a Terran is making and will be attacking with. In short, I could run an SCV or scan your base all day and not know what your army composition is without running directly into your entire army. And to be frank, you're not being punished by having limited information. You're being punished for not responding correctly for what precious information you have.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. Maybe it's because I play zerg and understand it, but zergs all ins are depressingly easy to scout. All of them (before the midgame where other methods of scouting become available) rely on cutting drones. Just check drone saturation at the natural.
Also, what zerg all ins are incredibly dangerous? Baneling bust? Bunkers are not a huge investment early game and can be salvaged. Roach ling all in vs toss? Strong on close spots vs a 3 gate expo, but why are tosses 3 gate expoing on close spots? In other positions, it still comes down to how well tosses can forcefield (which is not in the zergs control). Roach burrow? Get two cannons and gateway units. What all ins are you talking about?
I'm also a master level protoss, and I LOVE when zergs all-in. Its super easy to scout (I always hide and sac a probe to check natural saturation). It's also fairly easy to stop without deviating from my build. That's not even close to the case with zerg.
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On May 10 2011 05:40 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony. Well, didn't you make some creep colonies preemptively if the walk distance was small, so that you could get at least a couple in time after seeing your opponent leave his base? Because most/all maps in SC2 don't allow for a spine crawler to be built before your opponent arrives.
That's a map issue and I think it plays a bigger role in the effectiveness in 1 base terran strategies than does "zerg scouting".
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On May 10 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies  I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Heavily, heavily disagree. The armor in BW made them strong against Marines. Spines are largely useless against Marines in SC2. They even die quickly against Zealots. I don't know, maybe it will just become commonplace that if you want to use Spines you NEED to use Spines + multiple Queens? I'm not sure. Edit: Spines also take seemingly forever to build. I can scout him moving out and I'll be dead by the time he gets to my natural. That didn't really happen in BW.
Spine Crawlers actually appear to have 2 armor according to Liquipedia, the same as Sunkens. Or do you mean something else about the armor? I didn't play Broodwar at all at a competitive level, just watched games and played casually.
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Spines seem okay.. I think it's just that marines have ridiculous dps.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
I want neutral Crawler, that is upgrade'able to Spore or Spine.
Zergs are most reactionary race, so why their turrets have longest build time?
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On May 10 2011 05:32 InstantKarma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:28 Derez wrote:On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
IdrA mentioned that at least one of the two following statements has to be true:
-) You are able to scout anything what your opponent is doing
-) You have an all purpose build that is able to fend off everything
In my opinion this makes perfect sense, but neither of those two is the case right now. IdrA already suggested making overlord speed hatch tech with reduced costs, which would satisfy statement one.
I disagree with the core concept of the two statements. Neither T or P have the ability to scout everything their opponent is doing (in the relevant early game all-in timeframe), nor do they have entirely 'safe' builds. Imperfect information and 'unsafe' builds are part of the game, and part of the fun/excitement. If you truly want one of these statements to be true, there's a whole lot more to change then just zerg. Terran's have scan and protoss have hallucination. These allow them to thoroughly scout their opponent at a small cost pretty early in the game. Zerg do not have anything equivalent until later in the game. I think the solution would be to put the overlord speed upgrade on tier 1. It would be about equal to the cost and utility of scan and hallucinations.
The lack of knowledge you have of Protoss and Terran disturbs me. A lot is touted about scans and mules being "free" for Terrans when it just plain isn't true. In many cases, a scan early game is taking a HUGE economic hit at the same time. In many cases, Protoss and Zerg hit full base saturation a full minute earlier than Terran, but the mule actually brings the resource collection in-line with the other races as long as both don't stay on one base for too long.
As for Protoss, hallucination will ALWAYS come after warpgate tech, which will mean not a second before 7:00 into the game. By that time, many all-in timings have come and gone, and those that haven't are already knocking on the door. I will admit that I feel Protoss has the best tools with responding to all-ins, but they are still greatly vulnerable to them to the point that you can at least delay their plans significantly with just the threat of doing so.
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According to IdrA it loses to greedy builds. I haven't tried it out yet, though.
greedy>safe>aggressive>greedy
So he wants an all purpose defensive build that doesn't lose to greedy builds, or what?
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would be a wierd mix with creep tumour mechanics interesting idea though Idras concerns are legit
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Calgary26003 Posts
On May 10 2011 05:43 VonBlucher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Heavily, heavily disagree. The armor in BW made them strong against Marines. Spines are largely useless against Marines in SC2. They even die quickly against Zealots. I don't know, maybe it will just become commonplace that if you want to use Spines you NEED to use Spines + multiple Queens? I'm not sure. Edit: Spines also take seemingly forever to build. I can scout him moving out and I'll be dead by the time he gets to my natural. That didn't really happen in BW. Spine Crawlers actually appear to have 2 armor according to Liquipedia, the same as Sunkens. Or do you mean something else about the armor? I didn't play Broodwar at all at a competitive level, just watched games and played casually.
I don't know if units attack faster or what, Spines just die way faster to weak units than Sunkens did.
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On May 10 2011 05:36 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:32 Treemonkeys wrote:
Zerg scouting is actually really fucking good. Between overlord spread and creep spread zerg can have vision of nearly the entire map at times. What is the trade off for this, if not a weakened ability to scout *inside* the opponents base? It's not a "weakened" ability - you have no ability. The overlord isn't seeing anything unless you sacrifice three of them or your opponent put his tech right on the edge where your OL's went in. Having vision of the map is nice, but it doesn't help when your opponent can leave his base and arrive at yours before you have enough defense.
There is always some ability. On almost every map you can lurk around the edges and spot some buildings and to see what he is doing with his gas and worker count. Between what you can see and can't see you can fill in a lot of blanks to try to make the best decision. No races plays this game where they know they can win no matter what with a safe build, everyone has to take risks, everyone has limited information.
Contrary to popular belief zerg can successfully go all in and cripple or kill a toss/terran and there is not much they can do about it while zerg is holding the xelnage towers and denying any scout that tries to leave the base.
So what if they can scout zerg tech "easily". Are they watching the entire map like zerg is? Are they going to know the second zerg leaves his base like zerg can? Are they going to scan or keep an observer over the larva at all times to see when zerg decides to turn his econ greed build into a huge all in on a dime? No, of course not, they are taking risks like everyone else.
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How about Spine crawlers build a little faster, but to uproot you need the burrow/unburrow upgrade at lair tech? The rooting time stays relatively the same.
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On May 10 2011 05:42 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony. The thing is even if you post the numbers, I can just tell you how the game feels. In BW if he moved out I would have time to start 4 Creep Colonies and finish them into Sunkens before he got to my natural. I don't know if the maps are smaller, or units more faster or what, but it's not the same.
I really think it's the maps + warpgate mechanic. How many times do you find yourself building panic spines vs marines anyways? It's usually better to just get lings. And helions are ofc much faster than marines.
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On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony.
The fact that game time in SC2 is faster than normal seconds doesnt just make it so a spine builds in 36.2 seconds, it makes your opponents units reach your base faster aswell, i have absolutely no idea what your point is here?
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On May 10 2011 05:32 Treemonkeys wrote:
Zerg scouting is actually really fucking good. Between overlord spread and creep spread zerg can have vision of nearly the entire map at times. What is the trade off for this, if not a weakened ability to scout *inside* the opponents base?
Have you even read this thread?
Its about EARLY game scouting, which is also when zerg is weak.
Overlord spread is only possible once you got lair and even tho you have creep spread all over the map, you dont have time to react to it. I can have creep at a terrans ramp fWhen he moves out I dont have time to react to it because build time of defensive structures are way too long. And if I DO build lots of lings IN CASE he is going to attack, and he doesnt im far behind, and most times even if you do deal with the push with your lings, you end up behind aswell, overlords are useless aswell pre lair.
so no, zerg scouting is not ''really fucking good''
As idrA stated about LosirA vs Scfou. He knew the push was coming and he made enough lings to deal with it easily, but because he had too many lings he ended up behind anyways.
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On May 10 2011 05:47 Defacer wrote:
How about Spine crawlers build a little faster, but to uproot you need the burrow/unburrow upgrade at lair tech? The rooting time stays relatively the same.
Well I think the only reason why spines build so slow is aggressive spines in ZvZ. If that's not true I have no idea why they couldn't be build at least 10 seconds faster.
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On May 10 2011 05:45 Existor wrote:
I want neutral Crawler, that is upgrade'able to Spore or Spine.
Zergs are most reactionary race, so why their turrets have longest build time?
I think the spine time was balanced for ZvZ. smaller build time would make fast pools just too good and a must
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On May 10 2011 05:46 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:43 VonBlucher wrote:On May 10 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Heavily, heavily disagree. The armor in BW made them strong against Marines. Spines are largely useless against Marines in SC2. They even die quickly against Zealots. I don't know, maybe it will just become commonplace that if you want to use Spines you NEED to use Spines + multiple Queens? I'm not sure. Edit: Spines also take seemingly forever to build. I can scout him moving out and I'll be dead by the time he gets to my natural. That didn't really happen in BW. Spine Crawlers actually appear to have 2 armor according to Liquipedia, the same as Sunkens. Or do you mean something else about the armor? I didn't play Broodwar at all at a competitive level, just watched games and played casually. I don't know if units attack faster or what, Spines just die way faster to weak units than Sunkens did.
No argument here, Spine Crawlers are a joke to marines these days compared to their Brood War counterparts.
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On May 10 2011 05:42 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony. The thing is even if you post the numbers, I can just tell you how the game feels. In BW if he moved out I would have time to start 4 Creep Colonies and finish them into Sunkens before he got to my natural. I don't know if the maps are smaller, or units more faster or what, but it's not the same.
Pretty sure it was the part where sunkens could two-shot marines.
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On May 10 2011 05:49 Mephyss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:45 Existor wrote:
I want neutral Crawler, that is upgrade'able to Spore or Spine.
Zergs are most reactionary race, so why their turrets have longest build time? I think the spine time was balanced for ZvZ. smaller build time would make fast pools just too good and a must
Shouldn't balance the game around a mirror matchup until the non-mirrors are balanced, imo.
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On May 10 2011 05:48 RuneZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony. The fact that game time in SC2 is faster than normal seconds doesnt just make it so a spine builds in 36.2 seconds, it makes your opponents units reach your base faster aswell, i have absolutely no idea what your point is here?
No it doesn't...sc2 isn't just a sped up version of bw lol.Only reason the enemy could reach your base faster is because of smaller maps or warp ins...
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EPT
