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On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
IdrA mentioned that at least one of the two following statements has to be true:
-) You are able to scout anything what your opponent is doing
-) You have an all purpose build that is able to fend off everything
In my opinion this makes perfect sense, but neither of those two is the case right now. IdrA already suggested making overlord speed hatch tech with reduced costs, which would satisfy statement one.
I disagree with the core concept of the two statements. Neither T or P have the ability to scout everything their opponent is doing (in the relevant early game all-in timeframe), nor do they have entirely 'safe' builds.
Imperfect information and 'unsafe' builds are part of the game, and part of the fun/excitement. If you truly want one of these statements to be true, there's a whole lot more to change then just zerg.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 10 2011 05:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:Oh man the sheer zerg biased statements going on here. FASTER creep spread? Hatchery size? What the fuck really? Already with 3 queens on 2 hatch creep is half the map in 10 minutes. You have sight of it all. OLs are already everywhere, in every drop path, at every edge of the base poking, now they want them faster, cheaper, and earlier? lol Show nested quote +Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
...Because. They. Move. Doesn't matter how fast they move, they move fast enough that if I did a 16 marine drop in your main you could lift 3 spines, and land them before the marines have killed anything but a queen and some drones. All these ideas of making tumors turn into spines is ridiculous. So with your mad excess minerals not only can you make a disposable army, you can make an insane amount of static MOVING defense, and not even have to waste a drone to make it. Why is it ALWAYS zerg players complaining about every, single, thing in the game. Check everything on TL. It's always ZvX help. Pro zergs post Z strats. Mrbitter does Z streams with pros. Find any pro T's posting any strategys? Nope. Stop complaining. /rant/ If anything, get rid of sight of creep if you want creep colonies to spread hatch sized creep, and tumors to turn into creep. Else, no one can do anything to zerg. Once I leave my base you already know my entire composition, when I expoed, what tech path I went. Has anyone ever just seen a speed upgraded Overseer fly through a base? Jesus the thing has turrets! lol GAH! It's just so irritating. To me, zerg can stop every kind of cheese with 2 units. Queens, and slings. It really seems just that easy to me... As a terran player, I can say 75% of these changes proposed would make me tear my face off as not only can you out macro me, now you can have faster, stronger, mobile static defense. How funny is that. I say just give you guys lurkers back. Bane/infestor/lurker. That'd be fun to play against, even if you'd never beat it the micro involved would be SO sick awesome.
You understand that topic is about early game scouting, right? Noone cares about your creep spread and overlord positioning in the first 6 minutes in the game. On lair tech zerg scouting is easy but that not what this is about.
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On May 10 2011 05:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Oh man the sheer zerg biased statements going on here. FASTER creep spread? Hatchery size? What the fuck really? Already with 3 queens on 2 hatch creep is half the map in 10 minutes. You have sight of it all. OLs are already everywhere, in every drop path, at every edge of the base poking, now they want them faster, cheaper, and earlier? lol Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
...Because. They. Move. Doesn't matter how fast they move, they move fast enough that if I did a 16 marine drop in your main you could lift 3 spines, and land them before the marines have killed anything but a queen and some drones. All these ideas of making tumors turn into spines is ridiculous. So with your mad excess minerals not only can you make a disposable army, you can make an insane amount of static MOVING defense, and not even have to waste a drone to make it. Why is it ALWAYS zerg players complaining about every, single, thing in the game. Check everything on TL. It's always ZvX help. Pro zergs post Z strats. Mrbitter does Z streams with pros. Find any pro T's posting any strategys? Nope. Stop complaining. /rant/ If anything, get rid of sight of creep if you want creep colonies to spread hatch sized creep, and tumors to turn into creep. Else, no one can do anything to zerg. Once I leave my base you already know my entire composition, when I expoed, what tech path I went. Has anyone ever just seen a speed upgraded Overseer fly through a base? Jesus the thing has turrets! lol GAH! It's just so irritating. To me, zerg can stop every kind of cheese with 2 units. Queens, and slings. It really seems just that easy to me... As a terran player, I can say 75% of these changes proposed would make me tear my face off as not only can you out macro me, now you can have faster, stronger, mobile static defense. How funny is that. I say just give you guys lurkers back. Bane/infestor/lurker. That'd be fun to play against, even if you'd never beat it the micro involved would be SO sick awesome.
wait, and zergs are the ones complaining?
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On May 10 2011 05:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:Oh man the sheer zerg biased statements going on here. FASTER creep spread? Hatchery size? What the fuck really? Already with 3 queens on 2 hatch creep is half the map in 10 minutes. You have sight of it all. OLs are already everywhere, in every drop path, at every edge of the base poking, now they want them faster, cheaper, and earlier? lol Show nested quote +Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
...Because. They. Move. Doesn't matter how fast they move, they move fast enough that if I did a 16 marine drop in your main you could lift 3 spines, and land them before the marines have killed anything but a queen and some drones. All these ideas of making tumors turn into spines is ridiculous. So with your mad excess minerals not only can you make a disposable army, you can make an insane amount of static MOVING defense, and not even have to waste a drone to make it. Why is it ALWAYS zerg players complaining about every, single, thing in the game. Check everything on TL. It's always ZvX help. Pro zergs post Z strats. Mrbitter does Z streams with pros. Find any pro T's posting any strategys? Nope. Stop complaining. /rant/ If anything, get rid of sight of creep if you want creep colonies to spread hatch sized creep, and tumors to turn into creep. Else, no one can do anything to zerg. Once I leave my base you already know my entire composition, when I expoed, what tech path I went. Has anyone ever just seen a speed upgraded Overseer fly through a base? Jesus the thing has turrets! lol GAH! It's just so irritating. To me, zerg can stop every kind of cheese with 2 units. Queens, and slings. It really seems just that easy to me... As a terran player, I can say 75% of these changes proposed would make me tear my face off as not only can you out macro me, now you can have faster, stronger, mobile static defense. How funny is that. I say just give you guys lurkers back. Bane/infestor/lurker. That'd be fun to play against, even if you'd never beat it the micro involved would be SO sick awesome.
What level do you play at? How can you say that 3 spines are the counter to a 16 marine drop in the main? How can you say 2 queens definitely cover half the map in creep by 10 minutes? If you are really worried about creep, scan and kill creep tumors when you push. Or go hellion expand for map control and deny creep spread.
Many of your concerns seem unfounded at higher levels. For the record, I'm no pro. Mid-master zerg. I just think it odd for you to call this thread "zerg biased" and then bring up seemingly very biased/incorrect complaints.
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On May 10 2011 05:14 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think the the core of Idra's argument is that he does not like the fact that there is a *chance* element to the game which is really a fundamental part of the game. With fog of war comes limited information which brings incomplete decision making and chance. No race has perfect scouting, scan can miss the correct area, observer can be detected and shot down, overlord can be shot down? What is the difference?
Idra wants a game with no fog of war where it is a pure mechanics race and there is no chance at all for the "lesser" player to win. What zerg all ins can be hidden as well as the terran and protoss all ins? Zerg has less all ins, they are harder to hide, and they are mostly negated by simple wall offs (maybe 1 to 2 bunkers). Yes other races have limited information, but they are not punished for it nearly as often as zerg.
Every Zerg all-in can be as effectively hidden as Protoss and Terran all-in. Are you forgetting that Zerg almost gain complete map control by default within the first 5 minutes of the game? That is a HUGE advantage to denying scouting opportunities in the beginning of the game. Also, there is no big red sign for a Zerg all-in beyond "he's still on one base by 5 minutes" or "that's a lot of X!" Tech buildings for Zerg are merely a tell of what COULD be, but not even close to a sign of what units he has. On the contrary, a scouted factory/starport/rax with any addon or lack thereof is a GIGANTIC tell as to what a Terran is making and will be attacking with.
In short, I could run an SCV or scan your base all day and not know what your army composition is without running directly into your entire army.
And to be frank, you're not being punished by having limited information. You're being punished for not responding correctly for what precious information you have.
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Zerg scouting is actually really fucking good. Between overlord spread and creep spread zerg can have vision of nearly the entire map at times. What is the trade off for this, if not a weakened ability to scout *inside* the opponents base?
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On May 10 2011 05:28 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
IdrA mentioned that at least one of the two following statements has to be true:
-) You are able to scout anything what your opponent is doing
-) You have an all purpose build that is able to fend off everything
In my opinion this makes perfect sense, but neither of those two is the case right now. IdrA already suggested making overlord speed hatch tech with reduced costs, which would satisfy statement one.
I disagree with the core concept of the two statements. Neither T or P have the ability to scout everything their opponent is doing (in the relevant early game all-in timeframe), nor do they have entirely 'safe' builds. Imperfect information and 'unsafe' builds are part of the game, and part of the fun/excitement. If you truly want one of these statements to be true, there's a whole lot more to change then just zerg.
Terran's have scan and protoss have hallucination. These allow them to thoroughly scout their opponent at a small cost pretty early in the game. Zerg do not have anything equivalent until later in the game. I think the solution would be to put the overlord speed upgrade on tier 1. It would be about equal to the cost and utility of scan and hallucinations.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies  I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good.
Heavily, heavily disagree. The armor in BW made them strong against Marines. Spines are largely useless against Marines in SC2. They even die quickly against Zealots. I don't know, maybe it will just become commonplace that if you want to use Spines you NEED to use Spines + multiple Queens? I'm not sure.
Edit: Spines also take seemingly forever to build. I can scout him moving out and I'll be dead by the time he gets to my natural. That didn't really happen in BW.
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On May 10 2011 05:01 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
They seem weaker because of Roaches(16 dmg each),Immortals (50 dmg), Maruaders (24 each plus stim -_-)
In BW units like these with redicouls dps didn't exist. Not to mention Lurkers really bulstered Zerg positions
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On May 10 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Heavily, heavily disagree. The armor in BW made them strong against Marines. Spines are largely useless against Marines in SC2. They even die quickly against Zealots.
Added to the fact that you could build them when you saw your opponent pushing out which gave you extra room to build drones/units etc.
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On May 10 2011 05:32 Treemonkeys wrote:
Zerg scouting is actually really fucking good. Between overlord spread and creep spread zerg can have vision of nearly the entire map at times. What is the trade off for this, if not a weakened ability to scout *inside* the opponents base?
It's not a "weakened" ability - you have no ability. The overlord isn't seeing anything unless you sacrifice three of them or your opponent put his tech right on the edge where your OL's went in. Having vision of the map is nice, but it doesn't help when your opponent can leave his base and arrive at yours before you have enough defense.
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On May 10 2011 05:28 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:14 Beef Noodles wrote:On May 10 2011 05:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think the the core of Idra's argument is that he does not like the fact that there is a *chance* element to the game which is really a fundamental part of the game. With fog of war comes limited information which brings incomplete decision making and chance. No race has perfect scouting, scan can miss the correct area, observer can be detected and shot down, overlord can be shot down? What is the difference?
Idra wants a game with no fog of war where it is a pure mechanics race and there is no chance at all for the "lesser" player to win. What zerg all ins can be hidden as well as the terran and protoss all ins? Zerg has less all ins, they are harder to hide, and they are mostly negated by simple wall offs (maybe 1 to 2 bunkers). Yes other races have limited information, but they are not punished for it nearly as often as zerg. I would argue that toss and terran are punished just as much as zerg is for lack of information just in an indirect or different way. Toss/terran move out, zerg underestimates it or isn't ready for it, zerg loses. Toss/terran move out, toss/terran underestimate zergs ability to defend it, toss/terran lose. It goes both ways. Things were early scouting are especially important, like 4gate, 2port banshee, fast DT, the game is basically won or lost on information. Can we really say zerg gets punished more in these situaitons? Yes they lose if they are not prepared, they also win if they are. We would really need a ton of statistics on very specific builds to be able to say who is getting punished more often. Even if the opponent does a good just of shutting out all scouting, zerg still knows he "might" be at risks to these things.
You basically proved the "coin flip" point of this entire thread. 1) Zerg wins if they are prepared. 2) They lose if they are not. 3) They cannot effectively scout.
Add all those up, and thats a coin flip.
Also, toss and terran don't have to do those crazy all-ins. So they get to decide if its a coin-flip. Zerg does not.
Well I guess zerg can decide to make it a coinflip by all-ining as well, but like I said, it is much easier to scout a zerg all in early game. If you are terran, scan the expansion and see if its saturated. If you are toss, hide a probe and sacrifice it to see the drone count.
Not to mention, wall offs, bunkers, sentries actually allow toss/terran normal builds to hold off any early game all ins. Yes it does require great forcefields, and preemptive bunkers, but that is far less investment than zerg
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On May 10 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Heavily, heavily disagree. The armor in BW made them strong against Marines. Spines are largely useless against Marines in SC2. They even die quickly against Zealots.
Yeah, it's really exponential as well when it comes to spines..
5 marines, and a spine is a terrans worst nightmare
10 marines, and a spine is an annoyance
15 marines and a spine is just another things that dies as you stutter step.
I would love creep colonies as well. Put one behind your minerals, and just leave it there. See phoenix or banshee? spore. See reactor hellions? Spine.
A trade off to make it fair would be to make it so spore colony spines/spores cannot uproot
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Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony.
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On May 10 2011 05:31 aksfjh wrote:
Also, there is no big red sign for a Zerg all-in beyond "he's still on one base by 5 minutes" or "that's a lot of X!" Tech buildings for Zerg are merely a tell of what COULD be, but not even close to a sign of what units he has. On the contrary, a scouted factory/starport/rax with any addon or lack thereof is a GIGANTIC tell as to what a Terran is making and will be attacking with.
This is also a good point. Zerg gets tech so cheaply that simply scouting it isn't all that revealing. For example for the cost of a roach warren (price of one canon) you can force several canons without being serious about using it. Zerg tech can be scouting but there is no way for toss/terran to predict when the next round of larva will be mass units instead of drones, which is another reason why their more constant scouting methods are needed for them. At least with production buildings you can have a good idea of how much is being produced and you can tell if they are in use by looking at them. Zerg tech is much more mysterious and potentially overwhelming.
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Seems like a "creep crawler" could be a pretty cool but not totally necessary addition to the Zerg arsenal. Builds in shorter time than Spine/Spore, can't attack, roots/unroots and moves faster, morphs into Spine or Spore (total build + morph time making it the same as straight-up making the other kind of crawler)... but I think SC2 is fine as it is. Well, maybe Zerg may not be totally fine, but I don't think you need to make it more Brood-War-like to fix them.
I guess in the end I'd still rather see IdrA's overlord speed change suggestion get implemented.
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On May 10 2011 05:32 Treemonkeys wrote:
Zerg scouting is actually really fucking good. Between overlord spread and creep spread zerg can have vision of nearly the entire map at times. What is the trade off for this, if not a weakened ability to scout *inside* the opponents base?
Yea, why would you want to see your inside your opponent's base when you can see the beautiful topography of the map?
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if the creep colony was introduced how long before we would hear bitching that the 50 minerals or whatever the cost is, is too much for possibly no gain. How many weeks after would idra be saying that any cost that doesnt do damage puts you behind?
im a huge idra fan but i dont see the point of the spore colony change for sc2.
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On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony.
Well, didn't you make some creep colonies preemptively if the walk distance was small, so that you could get at least a couple in time after seeing your opponent leave his base? Because most/all maps in SC2 don't allow for a spine crawler to be built before your opponent arrives.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On May 10 2011 05:37 L3gendary wrote:
Just wanna clear up some misconceptions:
Sunken Colony Build Time: 20 + 20 = 40s
Spine Crawler Build Time: 50s (game seconds) = 36.2s
Sunken Colony Cost: 50 + 75 + 50 =175min
Spine Crawler Cost: 50 + 100 = 150min
Spine builds faster and costs less. imo biggest defensive advantage that sunkens have is that it's harder to go around them. You usually don't build creep colonies and wait for an attack to build sunkens because the 50 extra minerals is not that much compared to the 125 mineral investment in the creep colony.
The thing is even if you post the numbers, I can just tell you how the game feels. In BW if he moved out I would have time to start 4 Creep Colonies and finish them into Sunkens before he got to my natural. I don't know if the maps are smaller, or units more faster or what, but it's not the same.
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EPT
