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On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
Did you even play Brood War or read any of the posts above yours?
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A Better Creep Colony Idea:
For 50 Minerals, you can morph an Active Creep Tumor into a Colony, which can be later morphed into a spine/spore for another 50 minerals.
Might have to fine tune the cost a little to 50/75 or 75/75 since zerg isn't losing a drone.
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I think the the core of Idra's argument is that he does not like the fact that there is a *chance* element to the game which is really a fundamental part of the game. With fog of war comes limited information which brings incomplete decision making and chance. No race has perfect scouting, scan can miss the correct area, observer can be detected and shot down, overlord can be shot down? What is the difference?
Idra wants a game with no fog of war where it is a pure mechanics race and there is no chance at all for the "lesser" player to win.
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It isn't exactly like you would build a bunch of creep colonies and then decide to morph them into sunkens or spores. I played zerg in BW, and sunkens built fast enough that you could build 2-3 the moment the terran pushed out. They would push out, you could start morphing the colony, then you could morph the sunken, and the terran (on most maps) would be just arriving at your natural. It was so nice...
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On May 10 2011 05:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think the the core of Idra's argument is that he does not like the fact that there is a *chance* element to the game which is really a fundamental part of the game. With fog of war comes limited information which brings incomplete decision making and chance. No race has perfect scouting, scan can miss the correct area, observer can be detected and shot down, overlord can be shot down? What is the difference?
Idra wants a game with no fog of war where it is a pure mechanics race and there is no chance at all for the "lesser" player to win.
What zerg all ins can be hidden as well as the terran and protoss all ins? Zerg has less all ins, they are harder to hide, and they are mostly negated by simple wall offs (maybe 1 to 2 bunkers).
Yes other races have limited information, but they are not punished for it nearly as often as zerg.
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On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
1 -> You are able to scout anything what your opponent is doing
[OR]
2 -> You have an all purpose build that is able to fend off everything
I'm sort of confused (and should possibly go listen to the podcast). Neither of these makes sense... and I think they're residual to idrA being a BW Terran.
1) You're never going to be able to scout anything/everything your opponent does. SCVs get killed off, scans are limited; Probes get killed off, obs can be eliminated; Drones/OLs get killed off or chased away... and yeah, Zerg doesn't have another scouting option. But they didn't in BW either, precisely: if we look at it, maybe what Zerg really needs is scourge back. (It would solve the Colossus problem too, lol.)
Of course you should be able to tell generally what your opponent is doing; otherwise it's not a strategy game but a blind counter game. This means tech changes have to be detectable, but I think they usually are (and if not it's due to SC2 having a fairly "compressed" tech tree compared to BW). But if you want to know everything your opponent is doing, play chess.
2) There are all-purpose builds in BW; they're called "safe". I don't play or watch enough SC2 to know if there are "safe" builds in SC2 yet, or what they are. But it's a well-known circle of counters that safe > aggressive > greedy > safe.
Now, specifically addressing the creep colony question: most of the time in modern TvZ, as far as I remember, creep colonies aren't put down until sunkens/spores are needed. It's very rare to see a creep colony dropped and not morphed immediately to a sunken or spore. This goes back to information, of course: timings are known and there's usually time to put down the colony + morph.
SC2 is still where timings are less "fixed" (I suppose it's possible the game as a whole will be less "fixed") - with or without creep colonies, there's more risk all around since it's harder to know exactly when and with what an opponent attacks.
I think.
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On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
I listened to the last episode of state of the game and there was this little balance discussion going on between IdrA and Day[9].
Understatement of the century, man
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Let creep tumors evolve into spines or spores (and cut down the build time for spine/spore just by a little bit... 5 or 10 seconds? That would be interesting. It would help satisfy Blizzard's original intent for the Queen to lay down defensive structures (and for it to be a very defensive unit in the process).
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Zerg has base defense in creep tumors now, the speed bonus helps a lot. Also, queens double as base defense too. Given this, there is less of a need for instantly built static defense.
Furthermore, what do you think happens to the game when you give zerg powerful reactive defensive tools? They will drone even more and the game will be even more about how many drones a zerg can get away with. At least now they have to pre-make spine crawlers, so zerg is encouraged to at least get some defenses or units instead of just drones.
And also, if you want spine crawlers to have less root time, just say so and don't hide it behind a silly idea like copying a brood war design unto sc2. Or more generally speaking, ask for the spine crawler to have a lower build time, since that's functionally mostly the same.
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On May 10 2011 05:10 DJams wrote:
A Better Creep Colony Idea:
For 50 Minerals, you can morph an Active Creep Tumor into a Colony, which can be later morphed into a spine/spore for another 50 minerals.
Might have to fine tune the cost a little to 50/75 or 75/75 since zerg isn't losing a drone.
By "active", I assume you mean that you can't use a creep tumor that's already been replicated? Interesting idea
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On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
Even if there is an all-purpose defensive build (though I think other posters have pointed out deficiencies in Spanishiwa's build as an all-purpose defensive build) that's still not that good, a race should not be forced into one build at the beginning of every build just to have a good shot at staying alive, I think Idra actually mentioned this and I agree scouting is more important to have. (btw I play Toss)
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Here are the problems with "all defensive" and "know all" approaches to SC2.
1) None of the races have a way to certainly determine the opening of their opponent. There is nothing Terran or Protoss can do to scout the same time frame that Zerg has trouble scouting. There must be a GREAT amount of sacrifice and cunning in order to determine the initial intentions of your opponent.
2) None of the races have an "all defensive" build that doesn't put them behind if there isn't a large push. Bunkers, cannons, spine crawlers, defensive production, etc. all set back the builds of the races by a fair amount, aggressively and/or economically.
3) If you give a Zerg too much information to go off of, they will win almost every game. Zerg has the unique ability to capitalize on intel to the highest degree by being able to focus on economy or army so fully that having the ability to gain said intel in such a free manner would break the game.
All these points aren't to say that Zerg currently does not have tools to determine what the opponent is doing early game. There are plenty of ways to scout that don't include peeking into the opponent's base. A large knowledge of expansion and attack timings, as well as suiciding units into the front for army composition can go a VERY long way in how to prepare for an attack, or when to invest in economy. There are also occasions in which Zerg can take advantage of certain turtle moves by being very aggressive. See Nestea vs Anypro.
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Here's what I think about Spine Crawlers. Sure, they take quite a long time to build, and they take forever to root. HOWEVER, you can transfuse them, AND you can actually move them and change their position. To me this ability + creep spreading is an extremely powerful combo. I'm not talking about extreme tactics like all in spine crawler push, but I believe that Spine Crawlers are underused.
edit; also it's important to remember that every race has its strenghts and weaknesses. This is how it is: not every race can have the best scouting, the most cost efficient units, the most mobile units, etc.
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On May 10 2011 05:18 Grumbels wrote:
Zerg has base defense in creep tumors now, the speed bonus helps a lot. Also, queens double as base defense too. Given this, there is less of a need for instantly built static defense.
Furthermore, what do you think happens to the game when you give zerg powerful reactive defensive tools? They will drone even more and the game will be even more about how many drones a zerg can get away with. At least now they have to pre-make spine crawlers, so zerg is encouraged to at least get some defenses or units instead of just drones.
And also, if you want spine crawlers to have less root time, just say so and don't hide it behind a silly idea like copying a brood war design unto sc2. Or more generally speaking, ask for the spine crawler to have a lower build time, since that's functionally mostly the same.
obviously changing zerg static defense would change a lot of balancing, but the point is to make it so zerg can actually react as opposed to guess. The point isn't necessarily to buff zerg. Allowing defense to be reactionary might mean there need to be buffs to the other races' aggressive units, but that is a much better (and more skillful) game dynamic instead of forcing the zergs to have barely any information and just randomly guess: "well, I didn't see anything with the ovie. He's got some marines. Don't know if he's all-ining or expanding. Better throw down 2 spines incase its hellions or I lose."
Then its fast expo and you are behind for no reason other than your defense builds so freakin slow...
or its banshee and your spines are useless and expensive...
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On May 10 2011 05:18 Grumbels wrote:
Zerg has base defense in creep tumors now, the speed bonus helps a lot. Also, queens double as base defense too. Given this, there is less of a need for instantly built static defense.
Creep does not really matter in early game. Queens aren't bad buit they do around 0 damage. And there is a very big need for static defence for zerg. If you see 25 marines leaving terran base after you made a round of drones in early game then your only choice is spines which takes forever to make.
On May 10 2011 05:22 AlBundy wrote:
Here's what I think about Spine Crawlers. Sure, they take quite a long time to build, and they take forever to root. HOWEVER, you can transfuse them, AND you can actually move them and change their position. To me this ability + creep spreading is an extremely powerful combo. I'm not talking about extreme tactics like all in spine crawler push, but I believe that Spine Crawlers are underused.
In early game, where scouting is most important you don't have enough energy for transfuse anyway, position change is also another story.
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On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:
I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good.
jesus, you are missing the point entirely,
either you are trolling, or you are a complete dumbass
either way gtfo
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On May 10 2011 05:22 AlBundy wrote:
Here's what I think about Spine Crawlers. Sure, they take quite a long time to build, and they take forever to root. HOWEVER, you can transfuse them, AND you can actually move them and change their position. To me this ability + creep spreading is an extremely powerful combo. I'm not talking about extreme tactics like all in spine crawler push, but I believe that Spine Crawlers are underused.
Yeah, spines are AWESOME at defending once you get them up - the problem is that they take so long to make 
Bonus is that you can move them up, but they take a decent time to root as well.. most Terran and Protoss armies can do quite a bit of damage to the zerg army before the spines get rooted, leaving the spines more vulnerable.
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On May 10 2011 05:18 Grumbels wrote:
Zerg has base defense in creep tumors now, the speed bonus helps a lot. Also, queens double as base defense too. Given this, there is less of a need for instantly built static defense.
Furthermore, what do you think happens to the game when you give zerg powerful reactive defensive tools? They will drone even more and the game will be even more about how many drones a zerg can get away with. At least now they have to pre-make spine crawlers, so zerg is encouraged to at least get some defenses or units instead of just drones.
And also, if you want spine crawlers to have less root time, just say so and don't hide it behind a silly idea like copying a brood war design unto sc2. Or more generally speaking, ask for the spine crawler to have a lower build time, since that's functionally mostly the same.
Sort of - they still have to invest drones into the creep colonies (if that is implemented), and early on, that will still be hit on their econ. Even more so than "reactive" spine crawlers, because if you put down the wrong amount of creep colonies, you've wasted quite a few drones.
But yes, they can drone harder behind it.
Queens aren't the best defense against some of the more common pushes. Zealots rip apart queens, marauders are tickled, stalkers are tickled, bunkers are tickled.
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Oh man the sheer zerg biased statements going on here. FASTER creep spread? Hatchery size? What the fuck really? Already with 3 queens on 2 hatch creep is half the map in 10 minutes. You have sight of it all.
OLs are already everywhere, in every drop path, at every edge of the base poking, now they want them faster, cheaper, and earlier? lol
Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
...Because. They. Move. Doesn't matter how fast they move, they move fast enough that if I did a 16 marine drop in your main you could lift 3 spines, and land them before the marines have killed anything but a queen and some drones.
All these ideas of making tumors turn into spines is ridiculous. So with your mad excess minerals not only can you make a disposable army, you can make an insane amount of static MOVING defense, and not even have to waste a drone to make it.
Why is it ALWAYS zerg players complaining about every, single, thing in the game. Check everything on TL. It's always ZvX help. Pro zergs post Z strats. Mrbitter does Z streams with pros. Find any pro T's posting any strategys? Nope.
Stop complaining.
/rant/
If anything, get rid of sight of creep if you want creep colonies to spread hatch sized creep, and tumors to turn into creep. Else, no one can do anything to zerg. Once I leave my base you already know my entire composition, when I expoed, what tech path I went.
Has anyone ever just seen a speed upgraded Overseer fly through a base? Jesus the thing has turrets! lol
GAH! It's just so irritating. To me, zerg can stop every kind of cheese with 2 units. Queens, and slings. It really seems just that easy to me...
As a terran player, I can say 75% of these changes proposed would make me tear my face off as not only can you out macro me, now you can have faster, stronger, mobile static defense. How funny is that.
I say just give you guys lurkers back. Bane/infestor/lurker. That'd be fun to play against, even if you'd never beat it the micro involved would be SO sick awesome.
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On May 10 2011 05:14 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think the the core of Idra's argument is that he does not like the fact that there is a *chance* element to the game which is really a fundamental part of the game. With fog of war comes limited information which brings incomplete decision making and chance. No race has perfect scouting, scan can miss the correct area, observer can be detected and shot down, overlord can be shot down? What is the difference?
Idra wants a game with no fog of war where it is a pure mechanics race and there is no chance at all for the "lesser" player to win. What zerg all ins can be hidden as well as the terran and protoss all ins? Zerg has less all ins, they are harder to hide, and they are mostly negated by simple wall offs (maybe 1 to 2 bunkers). Yes other races have limited information, but they are not punished for it nearly as often as zerg.
I would argue that toss and terran are punished just as much as zerg is for lack of information just in an indirect or different way. Toss/terran move out, zerg underestimates it or isn't ready for it, zerg loses. Toss/terran move out, toss/terran underestimate zergs ability to defend it, toss/terran lose. It goes both ways.
Things were early scouting are especially important, like 4gate, 2port banshee, fast DT, the game is basically won or lost on information. Can we really say zerg gets punished more in these situaitons? Yes they lose if they are not prepared, they also win if they are. We would really need a ton of statistics on very specific builds to be able to say who is getting punished more often. Even if the opponent does a good just of shutting out all scouting, zerg still knows he "might" be at risks to these things.
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EPT
