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On May 10 2011 21:09 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 19:25 Tobberoth wrote:
They should simply lower Spine build time to like 35-40 sec, fast enough so you can build them reactively. If you do this you open a pandora's box in ZvZ where defending ling spinecrawler allin becomes impossible if you try to go economy (14 pool).
I disagree. The point is to make the spine build fast enough to be done when a push arrives, it will still be too slow offensively and should be quite easy to block by pulling drones.
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Yet another clunky solution that's trying to work around the fact that BW hydras would fix the race.
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On May 10 2011 21:38 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 21:09 -Archangel- wrote:On May 10 2011 19:25 Tobberoth wrote:
They should simply lower Spine build time to like 35-40 sec, fast enough so you can build them reactively. If you do this you open a pandora's box in ZvZ where defending ling spinecrawler allin becomes impossible if you try to go economy (14 pool). I disagree. The point is to make the spine build fast enough to be done when a push arrives, it will still be too slow offensively and should be quite easy to block by pulling drones.
My 7-pool spine rush is already brutal enough to the point where I can beat 14 pools about 1/2 the time, and this is the build that is supposed to dominate me. Cutting 10-15 seconds off the time would guarantee that you HAVE to go pool before overlord if you want to defend.
ZvZ would become the new PvP.
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On May 10 2011 21:40 Sueco wrote:
Yet another clunky solution that's trying to work around the fact that BW hydras would fix the race.
Lol, how would BW-hydras fix it?
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On May 10 2011 21:25 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 21:20 ffadicted wrote:
The build time, root time and DPS of the spine crawler is fine imo. Just have to react and scout better. Spines are already the most versitile static D due to the fact they can be moved, and don't require any other buildings to make.
Just scout better Dude, the whole point of the thread is that, on almost every map, you scout a push, you put down spines, the push in here before the spines are finish.
And I'm arguing that's not needed lol It would be stupid if zerg can just do whatever they want economically, then put down a handful of spines whenever the other guy moves out and hold everything. Try playing safer instead of greedy maybe and you'll see that zerg is very good at holding early game pushes due to spawn larva. At least you don't have to build a forge to get out static defense.
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On May 10 2011 11:27 canikizu wrote:
From what I read from the topic:
1) Zerg need a scouting unit that can run in and out of the enemy's base without dying, and the only way to deny scouting is to really position a bunch of unit to kill it off from very beginning, or having stim marines at 6,7 minutes. And btw, while we are at it, why don't we send 2,3 of them in at the same time, since its speed is fast anyway. And who need zergling to poke at the door to scout, that's so risky, just poke an overlord there, it can fly anyway.
2) Zerg need the colony so that it doesn't need to fully commit to defend the base while doing risky greedy build. And by the way, don't take its ability to unroot, or zerg will complain that they have to put their defensive structure at no man land.
On the topic though
1) imo, dividing overlord speed into 2 level, hatchery tier allows only +0.5speed, and lair tier allows another +1 speed would be nice.
2) If Blizzard were to buff Zerg's static defense, what do you suggest to nerf to balance out, because I'm sure we are all agree that Zerg with healthy economy is gg for other race. Personally I can't see what can be nerfed, Maybe taking out the queen's attack ability? sounds silly, but isn't that what people want? A similar defensive structure like BW? Although I'm not sure because air aggression in SC2 early game is way more difficult to deal with compared to BW.
1) I don't understand that point at all, maybe clarify what you mean by this and maybe leave out the sarcasm?
2) Atm., Zerg has no ability to scout what the Terran is doing if the Terran just has a wall-in and 1-2 Marines where Ovi's could fly in. Besides that, Terran can build their CC and even the OCC inside their base, making it impossible to even know the most basic thing - is he going for an economic or aggressive/tech-oriented playstyle. So if you are not able to know what the Terran is doing, the only way to have a safe build, is to react when they move out (this is what Speedlings in front of their base are for). This is currently almost impossible, cuz spine-crawlers build WAY too slow and preemptively putting up spine-crawlers or saving tons of Larva and banking Minerals, putting up Spores just to be safe against Banshees etc. is just not economical.
Zerg basically has to gamble in TvZ to a very large degree, which is just not a good state of TvZ and is not the case, at least not this severe, for any other race in any other MU.
And no, I do not at all agree that a healthy Zerg-Economy is GG for the other races, they just have to play defensively and max out or do a very strong timing-attack. But that's something that has nothing to do with this discussion!
We are discussing about a fundamental design-flaw that makes TvZ a much too volatile MU for Zerg, whereas the discussion about Zerg with a good Economy being too strong (even if it was true, which it isn't) is a balance-related discussion.
So Terrans or other People fearing that Zerg might just get too strong in TvZ if sth. was changed about early-game scouting, shouldn't forget that other stuff can be balanced afterwards, but it's just too important for the game that TvZ isn't such a gamble for Zerg!
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The problem is in ZvT is that T is getting smarter. Its nearly impossible to scout properly unless your willing to sac at least 2 overlords which is not cheap. Plus, many T are hiding their units in the middle of their base and use marines to patrol the edges.
As Z you have prepare for everything that might come out. Tank pushes, blue flame hellions, banshees. Since you are trying to prepare for everything, you can't crush any one of them so regardless of what they do they will still do some damage.
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I'm sorry I just notice.
Discussion threads like this are great and supposedly productive.As much as I'd love to discuss also, I was lead to believe that TL no longer deals with this kind of threads, particularly suggesting new game mechanics/units/etc as they should be brought up to Blizzard. In fact I remember a few specific threads that were closed specifically for reasons like "TL is not Blizzard" or "Sorry TL does not do suggestion threads anymore." If only I could find them. Im surprised this one reached 11 pages.
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It is because of chronoboost/warp-in, MULES and spawn larvae that make all in much easier to maintain. However, the ability to scout was still the same, making all in harder to stop
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On May 10 2011 21:53 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 21:25 Noocta wrote:On May 10 2011 21:20 ffadicted wrote:
The build time, root time and DPS of the spine crawler is fine imo. Just have to react and scout better. Spines are already the most versitile static D due to the fact they can be moved, and don't require any other buildings to make.
Just scout better Dude, the whole point of the thread is that, on almost every map, you scout a push, you put down spines, the push in here before the spines are finish. And I'm arguing that's not needed lol It would be stupid if zerg can just do whatever they want economically, then put down a handful of spines whenever the other guy moves out and hold everything. Try playing safer instead of greedy maybe and you'll see that zerg is very good at holding early game pushes due to spawn larva. At least you don't have to build a forge to get out static defense.
You, toss players, make it sound like if you let zerg players make their economy unpunished then zerg will get free win. But the answer is they just won't be at a disadvantage.
And btw how can you play "safer" with zerg? If terran goes for 7 rax all-in then 10 lings won't help here, 2 spines won't help either on most maps. Or by "safe" build you mean 4 queens, baneling nest, roach warren and 4 spines early game?
On May 10 2011 21:20 ffadicted wrote:
The build time, root time and DPS of the spine crawler is fine imo. Just have to react and scout better. Spines are already the most versitile static D due to the fact they can be moved, and don't require any other buildings to make.
Just scout better
On certain maps, like Xel naga not only your spines won't be ready but they won't cover anything usually, or you need 5 of them. And how can you scout fake 3 gate expand into 5 gate allin? I suggest you try to play some games as zerg so you see how things work.
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Why every zerg cares so much about idra and his balance thoughts dont get me wrong he is good.
In my eyes idra ideal zerg is that the can drone up to 80 without making units.
i don t think the game is perfectly balanced and there are some issues but for every race and in my eyes idra is very one side (could be because he just knows zerg very very well)
but the problem with idras balance thought in my eyes is he is so emotional and wont give a player any credit if he loses to another race. He would simply say he i know i am the better player but yeah he plays an imba race or an unbeatable strate or what so ever. i can t take idra seriously anymore when it comes to balancing.
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United States17042 Posts
"how I would change the game thread" is not allowed in sc2 general, and sc2 strategy it needs a ton of evidence and replays stuff.
Not indicating agreement or disagreement, but the thread quality is degrading into bw vs sc2 and balance, therefore closed.
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EPT
