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On May 10 2011 06:59 Tracedragon wrote:
Guys I think we're all forgetting something.
SCII Spines do 20(+5) damage per shot.
SCBW Sunkens do 40 damage per shot.
They both have roughly the same attack rate.
Maybe that's what makes a difference?
Pre-laid Creep Colonies are also a much better reactionary defense than the Spine Crawler, which takes almost a full minute to build.
While yes maybe the damage was a major difference, comparing stats isn't helpful. The games' stats scale vary differently. It's more about the feel. In BW you knew you could start making defense when the terran pushed out. In SC2 you have to make the defense before hand, so you have to guess "hmm he'll probably move out sometime soon."
Makes for kind of stupid ways of getting behind in ZvT/ZvP
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On May 10 2011 07:00 Samhax wrote:
Sc2 macro (mules, queen, chrono) is really too strong from 1 base, you can produce way too many units just from, 1 base it's scary sometimes. add to that you have to respond perfectly to the unit mix because of the hard counter system.
Not to mention that your units don't clump up as much which is very very beneficial in rushing vs spines and zerglings.
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On May 10 2011 07:01 Trusty wrote:
If either point is made to be true, then it's a sad day for sc2.
Basically you want to never lose to a player taking a risk. Risks exist in the majority of competitive sports, they make it exciting.
A player taking a risk is putting himself into a win/loss situation, that he didn't need to be in. It's a gamble, its exciting when it pays off, or when it doesn't.
If you want to have a game of no risk, I don't suggest you play any sport involving a ball for the rest of your life.
This is a gross oversimplification. I suggest you read the OP next time. The point of the OP is that Zerg needs scouting to be able to detect WHICH all-in the Terran is doing and be able to react accordingly. Otherwise it's just a coinflip for Zerg where they have to guess right or they die. This is not a question of playing "with no risk".
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On May 10 2011 04:50 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Perhaps we should think of ways to incorporate creep tumors into the concept of aiding in static defense. Perhaps a drone will create a spine or spore crawler faster if they are built where a creep tumor currently lies? Its just a suggestion because I agree spine crawlers take a long time to root and move when trying to prepare a defense.
i really like that idea, if a spine crawler is built on top of a creep tumor it has half built time or something unique like that. It would add a solution but not really add any obvious problems
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On May 10 2011 06:46 Beef Noodles wrote:
That is exactly what we are arguing. Faster defense build times wouldnt negate all all-ins, but it would make them less strong. All-ins are soooo strong in SC2. People have been saying this for a long time now. It just gets so boring watching zerg get all ined, play very well, and just get caught off guard and lose (even if they tried to scout). In BW, allins were cool because a lot of them were REALLY hard to pull off.
Going to truncate the quote a bit before we get some sort of weird tur-duc-ken of quotes going on.
This is where we reach an end-pass. I believe having faster construction time on defenses would necessarily give Zerg too much breathing room to take economic advantage. While I will concede that Protoss has a fairly easy time abusing Zerg, decreasing building time on a core defense would ruin what many consider to be one of the most balanced and understood matchups right now (TvZ). It's already delicate with the balance of hatch-gas-pool orders and marine pressure. Throw in a fast(er) defense for Zerg and then Zerg is able to abuse Terran economically and aggressively a LOT easier.
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hehe in bw there was the double raks medic marine push which was almost unstoppable for the zerg unless they had sunkens. its kinda the exact same thing we have in sc2 only that the terran push is weaker because no medics and that the zerg is able to have way more larva.
PS: the zerg always died if they were greedy and didn't have the spines up in time. (building creep colos was a standard )
So lets talk about this can hold everything a zerg can build a hatch near the ramp and put up spines there. This is a can hold everything early game, just like all the other races can. or putting some spines at the natural if they protect the ramp as well as the natural its also can hold everything. And its not much different then any other wallin.
Oh and also it doesn't work as black and white as it is stated in the op.
Every race in sc2 isn't able to hold everything (you can't hold pure eco production if you save yourself against any possible threat, zergs should know this the best)
every race isn't able to scout everything the opponent is doing for free.
But for that one race got map control on default, the other two can block pathways without hindering themselfs later on.
So as some people said its just like bw.
For the creep colo. It would switch the balance of defense structures. So to make up for this, turrets would be enabled to be scrapable or cost reduced to 75. and protoss pylon fields would reduce the time shields start to regenerate by 25%.
Or they would remove the moving ability of the spines and spores. For me i prefer building 2 spines and moving them later on to fight against drops, rather then have them sit in no where land unti the huge terran force will just destroy them within seconds.
So i guess its quiet strange to say 2 things have to be true but they aren't for any race present ^.^ well for terrans maybe. (they can build a proxy raks to scout ^^ and that thing is sturdy enough to survive, yeah we are so op <3)
PS: i really hope that turrets will get a buff soon either in form of a price reduction or scrabable  the bunker nerf is only a step in that direction tehehe
PPS: please stop suggestion early game buffs in any way to the zerg, they can fast expand by default on the smallest maps and still have map control unless some hellion reaper builds from the terran. Thats damn strong.
more pses: spine crawlers were changed alot in the beta, don't expect changes on the strongest defense structure ingame not including the planetary fortress
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On May 10 2011 07:13 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 06:46 Beef Noodles wrote:
That is exactly what we are arguing. Faster defense build times wouldnt negate all all-ins, but it would make them less strong. All-ins are soooo strong in SC2. People have been saying this for a long time now. It just gets so boring watching zerg get all ined, play very well, and just get caught off guard and lose (even if they tried to scout). In BW, allins were cool because a lot of them were REALLY hard to pull off. Going to truncate the quote a bit before we get some sort of weird tur-duc-ken of quotes going on. This is where we reach an end-pass. I believe having faster construction time on defenses would necessarily give Zerg too much breathing room to take economic advantage. While I will concede that Protoss has a fairly easy time abusing Zerg, decreasing building time on a core defense would ruin what many consider to be one of the most balanced and understood matchups right now (TvZ). It's already delicate with the balance of hatch-gas-pool orders and marine pressure. Throw in a fast(er) defense for Zerg and then Zerg is able to abuse Terran economically and aggressively a LOT easier.
That's why I said in earlier posts that you can buff protoss/terran aggressive options *IF* the defense buff makes zerg defense too powerful. The problem is not that zergs are losing, the problem is that they are forced to guess what their opponents are doing and guess when to make defense.
Don't be afraid to address a game design flaw because you are afraid it will break balance. Design the game correctly (meaning without huge amounts of guessing), then balance it.
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Calgary25979 Posts
On May 10 2011 06:59 Tracedragon wrote:
Guys I think we're all forgetting something.
SCII Spines do 20(+5) damage per shot.
SCBW Sunkens do 40 damage per shot.
They both have roughly the same attack rate.
Maybe that's what makes a difference?
Pre-laid Creep Colonies are also a much better reactionary defense than the Spine Crawler, which takes almost a full minute to build.
BW Sunken Colonies also are explosive, meaning they're basically 20(+20). Most low tier rushing units were light anyways, meaning they took 20 damage.
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Beef Noodles, right now we're at a point where "design flaws" aren't easily fixed with a patch. Changing the dynamic of early Zerg to fix primarily 1 matchup (mainly ZvP) only to probably break an additional 2 (TvP, TvZ) in the process is not good developing. That's the equivalent to taking a hammer into heart surgery.
Like I said in another topic, I do have problems with the way Zerg is designed. I just think the proper avenue to discuss radical changes is closer to HotS than 1.3.X. I'd much rather see a topic like this evolve (lolpun) into a discussion of how to make the most of the situation and reacting correctly with limited information.
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On May 10 2011 05:30 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:Oh man the sheer zerg biased statements going on here. FASTER creep spread? Hatchery size? What the fuck really? Already with 3 queens on 2 hatch creep is half the map in 10 minutes. You have sight of it all. OLs are already everywhere, in every drop path, at every edge of the base poking, now they want them faster, cheaper, and earlier? lol Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
...Because. They. Move. Doesn't matter how fast they move, they move fast enough that if I did a 16 marine drop in your main you could lift 3 spines, and land them before the marines have killed anything but a queen and some drones. All these ideas of making tumors turn into spines is ridiculous. So with your mad excess minerals not only can you make a disposable army, you can make an insane amount of static MOVING defense, and not even have to waste a drone to make it. Why is it ALWAYS zerg players complaining about every, single, thing in the game. Check everything on TL. It's always ZvX help. Pro zergs post Z strats. Mrbitter does Z streams with pros. Find any pro T's posting any strategys? Nope. Stop complaining. /rant/ If anything, get rid of sight of creep if you want creep colonies to spread hatch sized creep, and tumors to turn into creep. Else, no one can do anything to zerg. Once I leave my base you already know my entire composition, when I expoed, what tech path I went. Has anyone ever just seen a speed upgraded Overseer fly through a base? Jesus the thing has turrets! lol GAH! It's just so irritating. To me, zerg can stop every kind of cheese with 2 units. Queens, and slings. It really seems just that easy to me... As a terran player, I can say 75% of these changes proposed would make me tear my face off as not only can you out macro me, now you can have faster, stronger, mobile static defense. How funny is that. I say just give you guys lurkers back. Bane/infestor/lurker. That'd be fun to play against, even if you'd never beat it the micro involved would be SO sick awesome. What level do you play at? How can you say that 3 spines are the counter to a 16 marine drop in the main? How can you say 2 queens definitely cover half the map in creep by 10 minutes? If you are really worried about creep, scan and kill creep tumors when you push. Or go hellion expand for map control and deny creep spread. Many of your concerns seem unfounded at higher levels. For the record, I'm no pro. Mid-master zerg. I just think it odd for you to call this thread "zerg biased" and then bring up seemingly very biased/incorrect complaints.
Uhm, 860 NA / 700 EU masters both, under 120 games b/w both names.
3 spines give you time to get the slings into the area. Sometimes I don't feel like spelling every detail out. Giving zerg early OL speed, back to topic, would rape any kind of risky play vs Z. Therefore, you'd have to macro the Z out, which in and of itself, is hard enough.
Bunkers take 40 seconds to build
Cannons take 40 second to build
Spine Crawlers take 50 seconds to build
Bunkers don't move. Cannons don't move. Spines....move. And kinda fast enough to stop an 8 marine 3 hellion 1 medic elevator vs the ice fisher, if they react right and pick up the spines and run em into the main.
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i still think larger, more well-designed maps would give us a better look at how the races perform. if we are constantly given tiny maps to ladder and form opinions on (with xelnaga towers and rocks everywhere) it skews our views entirely.
i'm still waiting for a map without xelnaga towers. the idea that controlling such a small space gives you access to so much intel removes a large part of threat from the game.
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On May 10 2011 07:58 mahnini wrote:
i still think larger, more well-designed maps would give us a better look at how the races perform. if we are constantly given tiny maps to ladder and form opinions on (with xelnaga towers and rocks everywhere) it skews our views entirely.
i'm still waiting for a map without xelnaga towers. the idea that controlling such a small space gives you access to so much intel removes a large part of threat from the game.
Sorry as a Zerg, i looooooooooove xelnaga towers, i can't play without them now, i'm too used to it...
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One thing i don't understand though, is why its so important for it to be able to morph on moments notice. you still lose a drone and all the mining time if you have the colony just sitting there, and the cost are basically the same. A creep colony >>> sunken still took a long time to complete in bw from start to finish.
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if Zerg could scout everything all the time and there was no way to denie zerg Scouting. Zerg would have the highest most consistent win ratio out there. Zerg is on the upswing mark my words the EZ Mode econmic play clashes with the EZ mode micromanagment from protoss and Eco > All
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On May 10 2011 07:58 mahnini wrote:
i still think larger, more well-designed maps would give us a better look at how the races perform. if we are constantly given tiny maps to ladder and form opinions on (with xelnaga towers and rocks everywhere) it skews our views entirely.
i'm still waiting for a map without xelnaga towers. the idea that controlling such a small space gives you access to so much intel removes a large part of threat from the game.
With the exception of close spawn 4 player maps, a great deal of these "tiny" maps are gone. I'm not really sure what the point is with xel'naga towers. In most cases, they give players with the ability to take map control an easier job taking map control.
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i'm actually all for creep colony. this would improve zerg's reaction-based-play as they could save a few cents here and there for later.
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On May 10 2011 04:42 decaf wrote:
A simple reduction of the spine crawler build time does not work, because it would ruin ZvZ. Early pool builds would be just too good and a must in that matchup. It also doesn't adress the issue of needing a spore crawler faster against DTs or banshees etc.
I don't think that a reduced Spine Crawler build time would necessarily ruin ZvZ, or at least adding the Creep Colony would be ruining it in the same way. But in my opinion both would not. What if early pool build where the best option to start the game? People would adapt, at best we would have action right from the start, whorst case you have to take a risk.
Still don't understand why Blizzard doesn't go crazy with the PTR Server and try all this stuff out...
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I've heard some people suggest it before: make overlord speed a hatchery tech upgrade instead of lair. Faster spines might be too exploitable, especially with the kind of thing that Nestea just did in GSL. Spines are ok as they are, the only problem is not being able to scout their all-in in time to know whether or not you need them on some maps. The faster overlord speed would allow for the scouting, and might not be overpowered.
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United States7483 Posts
Don't worry about it guys, in HotS, you can just steal the bunker from the 2 rax-ing terran.
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Idra is 100% wrong. Zergs need to prepare for multiple openings because if they know 100% what the other player is doing they are at a MASSIVE advantage.
The other races also have the exact same disadvantage. Protoss CANNOT scout until they get hallucination or observers. Terran has to rely on scans which will never see the exact army composition, they don't see what they need to half the time, and it hurts their economy (Which is much weaker than Zerg and Toss without mules).
People who think this is a zerg only problem are ridiculous. Toss won't know if Zerg is doing a roach/ling all in until it's at their doorstep. Terran won't know unless they get lucky.
Also, neither race can hold a Xel Naga tower from zerg early in the game.
Ability to scout early game: Terran > Zerg >>>>>>>>> Protoss
Seriously, Toss have it so much worse than Terran or Zerg ever will.
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EPT
