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Teamliquid being there is unfortunate, but you can just say it's a "political" decision which has nothing to do with the team. You just have to "eat" that. It's not good but they were given the rules, they did not like them, they did chose to not participate. Thats unfortunate but at least it's "clear" and somewhat "fair" (not the lag, but the "decision").
What really bothers me more and more are BIG invitational tournaments.
I reay get tired of it, no matter if the invites are made for teams or for single leagues.
Is it that hard (at least for single player events) to have some qualification tourneys WHITEOUT any pricemoney to get into a league instead of just randomly inviting people?
As long as players get chosen due to invites, it never will be "good" and people will allways find several justified reasons to bitch about it.
As long as there are invites there will be bias, knowingly, unknnowlingy... There just is bias. There is no way around that, you can't ask the community because the fanfavorites will win the polls.
The truth is: "BIG" Invitationals are bad and allways will be.
Btw: The Weekly cups in Europe are THE thing to show that your a top player... Some guys calling them "smaller/not important" Cups just show that they have no idea whats going on. Tons of very high profile players get regulary knocked out early in them...
BUT some players seem to be like ALLWAYS in the top 16 when they play in one. That probably says more about a player than winning one of said cups...
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On May 03 2011 02:37 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:13 NotSupporting wrote:On May 02 2011 10:12 Xeris wrote:On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up.
Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@ Are you saying that your argument for not inviting Empire was because of their previous results? If so you are making a mistake, Empire's lineup is better now and it's the team of many top EU players. If you compare them to ROOT, Sixjax, Millenium, and MYM I think you will find that Empire is above their standard, especially the later three. Uh... first: I had nothing to do with invites, this isn't my tournament. Second: Yes, I am judging based on previous results. How can you possibly judge based on something else? Third: Beastyqt isn't very good, he played in GCPL and lost most weeks. Fourth: Happy has no significant achievements, neither does Aristeo or Bly - so how can you say anything about them? Last: Ok, Nerchio is not bad, but having one extra player on the team that is decent doesn't warrant them being in this league. They had a chance to show that they didn't suck in GCPL, and they donked it up.
Please do some research before making such close-minded statements.
There is very much an food-chain when it comes to SC2 foreign scene. First you have NA/UK players who get invited to a lot more tournaments comparative to their skill level. Then you have EU and Australia, but primarily western European players who also have a comparatively easy time. Thirdly you got Eastern Europe and lastly Asia (China in particular).
Their is some rationality in this, especially when choosing invite to offline events as some countries have visa difficulties and language barriers. But a lot of preferred treatment is because tournament organizers are too ignorant to check out foreign scenes.
It's pretty easy to check the viability of unknown European players since the  Weekly Cups are well documented on for example Liquipedia. If you check them out you'll see that Eastern European players is far better than they get credit for. Weekly cups are indeed and in contrast to ladder good measurements of ones ability.
Talking about Empire specifically, I'm pretty surprised that no-one has mentioned Cubert-Aristeo which has been the dominant 2v2 team in the western scene since release. Kas is arguably one of the best Europeans atm. Nerchio is known but not to the extent he deserves, check out the TLPD and you'll see that he is ranked number 3 on the ELO list. Even "unknowns" like Beastyqt,  Bly and Happy have preformed well in online events.
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Russian Federation94 Posts
I don't play, so no reason to mention us.
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On May 03 2011 06:22 crms wrote:seriously. I know not everyone followed War3 but these guys were constantly spoiling heavy favorites and overall running a muck in the War3 scene with their 2v2 prowess. I still have my replays of one of the last Axslav/Strifecro vs Grubby/Happy sets. It was incredible. I eagerly await seeing them back in action for sc2.
I did follow it a bit but wasn't Grubby quite good in 2v2 as well? Or were Axslav and Strifecro overall seen as the best team? Just a question out of interest 
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On May 03 2011 05:28 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 05:09 Azarkon wrote:On May 03 2011 04:58 crms wrote:On May 03 2011 04:42 Azarkon wrote:On May 03 2011 04:26 crms wrote:And I think the comments Xeris is making about Empire and some of their players being bad and then inviting lesser teams like MYM in their place. Even if Empire was bad (which they clearly are not), why would you, Xeris, who is suppose to be representing this league straight out call a team and their players bad. Not only is that completely out of line for yourself, it reflects poorly on the whole project. 100% agree. At this point with his history of posting, outright lack of knowledge and complete lack of professionalism I can't for the life of me see how he is employed with anything pertaining to eSports. I mean a representative of many leagues and NASL just called out one of if not the best team in EU right now and called their players bad.. what? The best thing about eSports growing is eventually we will weed out these amateurs. First of all, Xeris is not a representative of EG. He's not associated with this league and he's giving his personal opinion. Get that straight. Second, Xeris is here because he has done a tremendous amount of organization for the community in Beta. He maybe an amateur, but he has done far more than any of his critics in this thread in terms of organization. I don't agree with Xeris's assessment of Empire, but he's not just someone who came out of nowhere. He is widely understood as one of the top organizers during Beta. I know he isn't involved in this EG event. He is a big player in the community and his attitude in this thread is unbelieveable. He isn't Dana White. This isn't the first time hes displayed horrid judgement on the boards as someone so involved with the community from a organizational\managerial aspect. If I was his boss at NASL with all the problems they've already been going through I'd be pissed that one of their figureheads is getting in silly debates and calling amazing teams 'bad' on a public medium. Part of the reason for inviting Mym & Millenium instead of Empire is probably to give those teams more exposure. Would it be fair for Mym & Millenium if Empire kept getting invited in their place despite not having a good showing the last time they were invited into a NA team league? Not really, so the best argument for inviting Empire is that they have the best players. Yet, how do you expect NA organizers to know or think that Happy is the best player in Europe? For most of us in NA, Happy still hasn't gotten a major win and so still hasn't proved himself. Clearly, Europeans disagree, but if so, how do you go about closing the gap? Just for the record, the fact that it's Happy means people should keep track of him. It's not like it's some unknown up-and-coming player, the guy was basically at Grubbys level for the last three years, but without the big tournament results due to playing Undead and he would run into an Orc sooner or later. Easily top 3 EU since 2007 or so.
This. Happy was an amazing WC3 player and will no doubt be one of the best in Europe at SC2.
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Dunno why this thread didn't stop when someone said TSL is a worldwide turnament and EG MC is not, that's why there's only EU and NA teams (unless im wrong, TL is an American Team).
The only mistake EG did was not saying that the TL invite was only symbolical, because they knew TL wouldn't accept.
pd. sorry for the bad english, im trying my best here u.u
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On May 03 2011 06:33 Weemoed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 06:22 crms wrote:On May 03 2011 05:54 Zlasher wrote:
Axslav+Strifecro hwaitingggg 2v2 beasts seriously. I know not everyone followed War3 but these guys were constantly spoiling heavy favorites and overall running a muck in the War3 scene with their 2v2 prowess. I still have my replays of one of the last Axslav/Strifecro vs Grubby/Happy sets. It was incredible. I eagerly await seeing them back in action for sc2. I did follow it a bit but wasn't Grubby quite good in 2v2 as well? Or were Axslav and Strifecro overall seen as the best team? Just a question out of interest
Grubby/Happy were phenomenally good but some how the 'low apm' players of Axslav and Strifecro took it took them and beat them in some great games. I'm not sure of their records vs. each other over their careers but their games were some of the best 2v2s I've seen.
neither axslav or strifecro were at the level of grubby or happy individually but on a team level they were very good and one of the better 2v2 teams in war3 near the end.
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I love the idea of this league. Including just 1 2v2 so it is not too important, but still important enough to practice for. It's cool too see Team Leagues in SC2 as well. The GSTL's that have been run were my favorite leagues to watch, just as the Pro League in BW was.
Look forward to seeing some high level Team play for the West. Having watched the Masters Cup before, I can only expect professional and quality casting and production.
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it'd be sick to see some huk,TLO 2v2s
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Edit: moved my argument down below in response to another post.
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I think that 1 2v2 series will be interesting  it will be at the very least amusing so people should calm down. Also it's their tournament they can invite who they want!
On May 03 2011 06:26 Velr wrote:
Is it that hard (at least for single player events) to have some qualification tourneys WHITEOUT any pricemoney to get into a league instead of just randomly inviting people?
also I think your not aloud to plug in company advertisement in your comments. jklol
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There is nothing awesome in 2v2. games are rarely longer then 8 minutes and cheese is 99.9%/ of the games. GLHF
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this thread is a testimonial to the sc2 community´s ability to self organize and engage in a process of collective decision making. while at some points the discussion might appear bad mannered, one cannot fail to acknowledge the uniqueness of the community. name me one other domain of human interaction where producers (tournament organizers), participants (players) and observers (us) can and do engage in a level discussion like this. literally everybody can participate in the discourse side by side with internationally known pro-gamers like jinro, idra or naniwa.
having said that i would like to end on a less serious note:
Poll: After heaving read this thread whom would you take to a lonely island?idra (33) 26% hotbid (31) 24% uniden (19) 15% nony (16) 13% naniwa (10) 8% jinro (6) 5% beastyqt (4) 3% incontrol (3) 2% plexa (3) 2% nazgul (2) 2% xeris (1) 1% 128 total votes Your vote: After heaving read this thread whom would you take to a lonely island? (Vote): nony
(Vote): incontrol
(Vote): jinro
(Vote): idra
(Vote): hotbid
(Vote): plexa
(Vote): naniwa
(Vote): xeris
(Vote): beastyqt
(Vote): nazgul
(Vote): uniden
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
There's a lot of good stuff that's already been said here. But to me the most important points are:
#1. NA server should not become the default server for tournaments. This is the issue brought up by Liquid' obviously. As nearly every player on these teams has accounts on the major servers, and as guest accounts can be easily provided, it only makes sense to have a fairer and more accommodating server switching layout. Sure EG is a NA organization, but since when has that hindered anybody? The whole thing feels like it was put together without any real ambition. More on that.
#2. Ver and others bring up a great point. Why weren't qualifiers of some kind held for this? Running qualifiers will only bring more teams, players and fans into the fold. Everyone would love to see a round of qualifiers. Praetoriani and FXO fighting for a spot? Empire and Virus? Who wouldn't love to watch that? There are tons of teams waiting in the wings to prove their worth. Complexity has the potential to do well. Ai showed promise at Copenhagen.
We all know that a true teamleague is going to have to look something like the ICCUP clan leagues in BW, with multiple tiers and a robust system of promotion and demotion. But here, for this preliminary event, why not widen the net?
Supporting ESPORTS doesn't cut it anymore. I'm tired of people saying, "Well, this is overall a good thing, and we're supporting esports, so watch us." That's the theme here, and it's annoying. "Good enough" shouldn't be "good enough". We've seen events like the TSL set a high bar in organization and delivery, and we've seen events like ScReddit and IGN set a high bar in production effects. And then events like this make no effort to even reach that bar. That's not the point of setting an example. The NASL is belatedly realizing this. Prize pool isn't everything. Big names aren't everything. I'm always annoyed when people criticize other people who are trying hard, but I dunno, this whole event hasn't really been handled in a way that really distinguishes it, and it should be.
Re: The poll
Taking Hot_Bid to a lonely island is a recipe for disaster.
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Sigh.
Their money, their tournament, their rules. And quite frankly, wanting to restrict play on the NA server when the majority of teams is NA is reasonable.
If Team Liquid wanted to participate in the GSL Team League, no one would expect them to alter their format or make concessions. It's not like TL would demand that the GSL fly in Tyler and TLO, or play games on the NA server, etc.
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On May 03 2011 07:32 tree.hugger wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff that's already been said here. But to me the most important points are:
#1. NA server should not become the default server for tournaments. This is the issue brought up by Liquid' obviously. As nearly every player on these teams has accounts on the major servers, and as guest accounts can be easily provided, it only makes sense to have a fairer and more accommodating server switching layout. Sure EG is a NA organization, but since when has that hindered anybody? The whole thing feels like it was put together without any real ambition. More on that.
#2. Ver and others bring up a great point. Why weren't qualifiers of some kind held for this? Running qualifiers will only bring more teams, players and fans into the fold. Everyone would love to see a round of qualifiers. Praetoriani and FXO fighting for a spot? Empire and Virus? Who wouldn't love to watch that? There are tons of teams waiting in the wings to prove their worth. Complexity has the potential to do well. Ai showed promise at Copenhagen.
We all know that a true teamleague is going to have to look something like the ICCUP clan leagues in BW, with multiple tiers and a robust system of promotion and demotion. But here, for this preliminary event, why not widen the net?
Supporting ESPORTS doesn't cut it anymore. I'm tired of people saying, "Well, this is overall a good thing, and we're supporting esports, so watch us." That's the theme here, and it's annoying. "Good enough" shouldn't be "good enough". We've seen events like the TSL set a high bar in organization and delivery, and we've seen events like ScReddit and IGN set a high bar in production effects. And then events like this make no effort to even reach that bar. That's not the point of setting an example. The NASL is belatedly realizing this. Prize pool isn't everything. Big names aren't everything. I'm always annoyed when people criticize other people who are trying hard, but I dunno, this whole event hasn't really been handled in a way that really distinguishes it, and it should be.
Re: The poll
Taking Hot_Bid to a lonely island is a recipe for disaster.
Yes, the TSL did do a tournament with sever switching. But why is server switching more fair then playing all games on the server that has the smallest difference in player latency? I'm not saying that the NA server has a smaller difference for KR-NA then the KR server does, but if it does, why not play all games there? And if, as Jinro mentioned he'd be willing to, you tried out SEA, and found that SEA had an even smaller difference in latency between the two players, why not play all games there.
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On May 03 2011 07:32 tree.hugger wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff that's already been said here. But to me the most important points are:
#1. NA server should not become the default server for tournaments. This is the issue brought up by Liquid' obviously. As nearly every player on these teams has accounts on the major servers, and as guest accounts can be easily provided, it only makes sense to have a fairer and more accommodating server switching layout. Sure EG is a NA organization, but since when has that hindered anybody? The whole thing feels like it was put together without any real ambition. More on that.
#2. Ver and others bring up a great point. Why weren't qualifiers of some kind held for this? Running qualifiers will only bring more teams, players and fans into the fold. Everyone would love to see a round of qualifiers. Praetoriani and FXO fighting for a spot? Empire and Virus? Who wouldn't love to watch that? There are tons of teams waiting in the wings to prove their worth. Complexity has the potential to do well. Ai showed promise at Copenhagen.
We all know that a true teamleague is going to have to look something like the ICCUP clan leagues in BW, with multiple tiers and a robust system of promotion and demotion. But here, for this preliminary event, why not widen the net?
Supporting ESPORTS doesn't cut it anymore. I'm tired of people saying, "Well, this is overall a good thing, and we're supporting esports, so watch us." That's the theme here, and it's annoying. "Good enough" shouldn't be "good enough". We've seen events like the TSL set a high bar in organization and delivery, and we've seen events like ScReddit and IGN set a high bar in production effects. And then events like this make no effort to even reach that bar. That's not the point of setting an example. The NASL is belatedly realizing this. Prize pool isn't everything. Big names aren't everything. I'm always annoyed when people criticize other people who are trying hard, but I dunno, this whole event hasn't really been handled in a way that really distinguishes it, and it should be.
Re: The poll
Taking Hot_Bid to a lonely island is a recipe for disaster.
i agree. "support Esports" is basically like "don't forget 9/11" around here. why does the TSA need to touch my genitals? because 9/11. why am i being called a monster for not supporting NASL? because Esports.
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On May 03 2011 07:32 tree.hugger wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff that's already been said here. But to me the most important points are:
#1. NA server should not become the default server for tournaments. This is the issue brought up by Liquid' obviously. As nearly every player on these teams has accounts on the major servers, and as guest accounts can be easily provided, it only makes sense to have a fairer and more accommodating server switching layout. Sure EG is a NA organization, but since when has that hindered anybody? The whole thing feels like it was put together without any real ambition. More on that.
#2. Ver and others bring up a great point. Why weren't qualifiers of some kind held for this? Running qualifiers will only bring more teams, players and fans into the fold. Everyone would love to see a round of qualifiers. Praetoriani and FXO fighting for a spot? Empire and Virus? Who wouldn't love to watch that? There are tons of teams waiting in the wings to prove their worth. Complexity has the potential to do well. Ai showed promise at Copenhagen.
We all know that a true teamleague is going to have to look something like the ICCUP clan leagues in BW, with multiple tiers and a robust system of promotion and demotion. But here, for this preliminary event, why not widen the net?
Supporting ESPORTS doesn't cut it anymore. I'm tired of people saying, "Well, this is overall a good thing, and we're supporting esports, so watch us." That's the theme here, and it's annoying. "Good enough" shouldn't be "good enough". We've seen events like the TSL set a high bar in organization and delivery, and we've seen events like ScReddit and IGN set a high bar in production effects. And then events like this make no effort to even reach that bar. That's not the point of setting an example. The NASL is belatedly realizing this. Prize pool isn't everything. Big names aren't everything. I'm always annoyed when people criticize other people who are trying hard, but I dunno, this whole event hasn't really been handled in a way that really distinguishes it, and it should be.
Re: The poll
Taking Hot_Bid to a lonely island is a recipe for disaster.
Very good post sir. Spot on. A good example of a not so big organization doing what you are talking about in #2. http://starcraft2.ingame.de/sc2cl/?m=league&leagueId=2
If some large organization or many got togather to support a system like that, we could have a really interesting team league in the future when the format and teams evolves and matures.
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On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences.
Exactly why the NASL isnt the big deal it try's to be Idra - well said - ironic? LOL
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Hmm... I'm pretty sceptical to the invites to this league.
Aswell regarding the arguments about Team Liquid being a minority in this tournament "dragging others down":
Isn't this what every functioning system is evolving around; adapting so that everyone can be somewhat happy?
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EPT
