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Hi everyone! This is my first thread I'm creating so I hope you all enjoy it.
And I know that I have greeted you all like a 13 year old girl, I think it's about time to get down to business. I'm feeling a little good tonight and I'm going to give you a guide to my favorite PvZ build. I recently got promoted into diamond and I have used this build for forever, even waaaay back in bronze league. I have been refining this build and when I use this build, I would have to say my PvZ win % is usually above 80% and I haven't lost with this build since about early February to a 3 RR. I have tested this build at small tourney against masters rank people a it has about a 65% win rate there. Also what's nice about this build is it requires little micro. I have an average of maybe about 70-90 APM when I'm laid back and about 150 when I'm perfectly serious, so it's not that hard to pull off.
I guess I'll tell you why I use this build. Let's start by taking the 3 most popular PvZ builds of today and dissecting them a little bit:
3 gate star contain: good for expoing, but could get runover if the opponents reacts properly or does something non standard (mass queen kills the vrs)
X gate robo: also a macro heavy build used to push off roaches and clear the way for an expo and transition into 2base collosi play
and the ever popular 4 gate: love or hate it, some people do against all matchups anyway.
Other alternatives usually always involve on getting on even base terms with the zerg and trying to stop the third or fourth from kicking in while you slowly warp in 3/3 deathball. 6 gate blink, vr collosi balls, etc.
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But I use a build that's geared toward hitting between the seventh and he eighth minute and never letting the zerg recover.
Anyhow, the point is this is a solid build and before I draw up a shit storm about how protoss 4 gates are OP as hell, I would like to say the build is geared to look like an incompetent 4 gate with its delayed ass timings.
It is in fact a variation of the 4 gate. BUT with my favorite unit from Brood War making an appearance.
+ Show Spoiler +
Now again, before someone screams that there is a thread already on this I'm just saying, this is my build and people are entitled to their own opinions and builds. And in the case the mods shut me down, well whatever.
Now, here's the mechanics and the rough build:
Build order
9 pylon (chrono boost probes 3 times during the build)
12 gate (wall, scout with this probe)
14 assimilator, 3 probes on gas
16 pylon
17 core
17 zealot (fill wall)
21 assimilator
23 at 100% core and 100% gas, twilight council 3 probes on gas
23 after getting 50 more gas, start warpgate research and chrono it out
25 zealot
25 2nd gate and pylon in back of base
26 zealot (or stalker take your pick)
28 dark shrine in the back of your base (cut probes)
29 3rd gate
30 4th gate (move out with this probe to set up the proxy)
30 pylon (not proxy yet)
--- Warpgate should finish when you have 2 gates done. SHOULD BE ABOUT 5:50 RIGHT NOW
30 2 stalkers and 3 gate should be finishing
34 proxy pylon a good distance from his base but not too far. this should be your fifth pylon, and as this happens, dark shrine finishes.
34 warp in your base, 1 more stalker and 2 more zealots as the 4th gate finishes, and move out with this army (SHOULD BE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 7:10 AND 7:40
39 set up 2nd proxy pylon closer than the 1st one
39 dt at first proxy and make it move join your army.
41 3rd proxy pylon
41 warp in 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 dt and join your army.
HIT at about the eighth minute with 6 zealots, 4 stalkers, 2 dts with constant reinforcements. Don't forget chrono boosts on your gates. The reinforcements should be as follows:
if z as roaches or lings or 3+ spines, 1-2 more dts with 1-3 zealots
if z has overseer, 4 stalkers while keeping the dts alive
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Why this works
Why?
Let's take it from a zerg point of view:
He's in the dark about my tech because although his overlord scouted 4 gates, its past 6:30, no attack yet and he has 3+ spines no to mention his lings
He's got a decent size army that can tackle any 3 basic gateway unit compositions
He's on 2 bases
The lair is about 2/3 done
The evo is done with carapace on the way
And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting.
Suddenly the attack hits after a good 90 sec looking like something he was fearin 2 minutes ago and sends his speedlings to surround. But suddenly everything is dead and he realizes a couple things.
There's one dt in the main, killing the drones that should have been lings/roaches
There's one dt tearing up his lings
The stalkers and dt are feasting on his roaches
There are more toss units the way
The lair is only 90% done at best if he expected the standard 4 gate and doesn't have enough gas for 2 overseers. If the lair was done, he had to have cut some spending on drones and roaches a little earlier
And the one overseer is simply going to get sniped by the stalkers.
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Now, why dts?
Well first ask, what choices does the zerg have?
15 hatch, 14-16 pool
Speedling Expand
Roach Rush
2 base muta
The first two get killed easily by this build because DTs will simply kill your workers and lings in one hit. The econ advantage has no play because of that frustrating larvae cap.
Same for RRs, instead, modify the 2nd lot to be a stalker and install an easily cancellable wall and abuse vision and chrono out a stalker and sentry. He'll be quite behind after a failed 7 RR push
I said he wasn't in a position to have a lair. Also, the spire takes forreeeevvvvveeeeeerrr.
Also, this is just theoycrafting.
I have no replays.
Jk, I don't wanna get banned yet:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/158880-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/158879-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/158879-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
BTW: All these zergs are diamond level
These were just my three most recent ones.
These builds are also viable against both terran and protoss and I have replays if you want (PM me o something)
I'm welcome to feedback too! :D
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this looks like a good build except that, how can you deny zerg the scouting of your twilight council? I mean, at this point you only have a zealot.. any good zerg will fly an overseer and see what's going on
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On April 04 2011 11:58 BreatheDeep wrote:
I guess I'll tell you why I use this build. Let's start by taking the 3 most popular PvZ builds of today and dissecting them a little bit:
3 gate star contain: good for expoing, but could get runover if the opponents reacts properly or does something non standard (mass queen kills the vrs)
X gate robo: also a macro heavy build used to push off roaches and clear the way for an expo and transition into 2base collosi play
and the ever popular 4 gate: love or hate it, some people do against all matchups anyway.
Aside from the 4 gate, none of those are popular PvZ openings atm.
3 Gate stargate contain doesn't really exist, it's an all in, not a contain. Containing doesn't do anything but delay your expo. 2 Gate stargate phoenix voidray harass into expo is fairly popular at the moment, Ace showcasing it over and over at IEM and Naniwa beating Idra with it yesterday.
X gate robo is one of the only openings that is just plain not viable in PvZ. 1 Base immortal timing attacks have been very weak ever since the roach nerf in the beta, they're very easily countered by roach speedling. XiaoT tried this twice against Sen in the games prior to the World Championship in the GSL a week ago and was crushed about as hard as you can be crushed in sc2.
There's a few main problems with the build. Mainly, that you start a dark shrine with exactly 2 zealots out.
This will be scouted literally every game by z's even in low masters, it's a huge blunder to not have an overlord in your base at that point after seeing 2 zeals at the ramp.
To do damage with this build, you have to be at his expo with him out having detection, which is unrealistic. Even if you delayed your dark shrine to get a stalker to deny scouting, it should be delayed enough for the zerg to have either an evo or a lair up.
Not to mention, this strat is entirely dependant on being able to sneak a proxy pylon somewhere on the map. If he sees dt's coming out of your base, on the majority of the map pool, he'll have enough time to reactively get detection to stop your rush.
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@Ghoststrikes: Thanks :D
Getting inside the base is the problem, how do you propose the zerg gets in?
The overseer is not viable. The build is designed to hit before lair tech fully comes into play.
@Werx: There are three problems in your arguement although 1 is situation dependant.
Also, I usually have 2 lots and a stalker when I start the shrine look at pop 26.
1. The zealots are there to deny runbys, the stalker to stall roaches, nothing suspicious. Also the two stalkers I put down at 30 are specifically designed to shut down those overlords
2. I position my shrine in the spot where his overlord is least likely to see it; notice in I believe replays 2 and 3 the slightly different placements of the shrine depending on his spawn. ^_^
3. The most important portion is where you are half right. SHOULD he scout my gates, like I said earlier it's designed to look like a stalled 4 gate. this is the situation dependent one .
Another thing I believe to be correct but correct me if I am wrong, the zerg sacks the overlord somewhere between 7:40 to 8:00 to catch a glimpse at tech tree which looks like a 4gate potentially going 6gate blink if he sees the council. This attack is designed to be a semi all-in rolling into the zerg base at about 7:50. The evo ges put down at about 7:30 and doesn't finish until about 8:20?
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Also,
@Ghoststrikes: I asked somepeople what the thought when they scouted the build. Only one thought dts. One thought high temp, chargelot; another thought weirdly timed +2 attack timed push, but most of them said 5/6 gate blink
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Let me start by saying I play zerg at a high diamond level and this wouldn't work.
A few problems:
1) 4 gate dt sounds silly. I think the whole build would work better with 3 gates, as you can't support constant production out of 4 especially if you're teching.
2) You can try to deny scouting, but if you're on one base that long I will have spores and lings, which will be able to defend any one base toss. ( Protoss hide blink/dt/air which are easily countered by this).
3) You cannot prevent me from seeing your gases and the units that kill the overlord. That will let me know you are hiding either air/dts (both gas heavy) and I will make spores.
4) You are wrong that zergs sac an overlord at 7 min to see the tech tree. Against one base, it will be much earlier.
5) You are completely misinformed about the 3 most common PvZ strategies.
6) I won't be making 3 spines. More like 2 spines and if the 4 gate is delayed I"ll be making spores. My economy is way ahead of yours and I know I can afford it.
7) "And he's droning like Idra and Ret expecting to build his econ and go muta/coruptors to deal with that collosi and vr ball he's expecting." This is completely wrong. No good zerg will drone like crazy if you're on one base.
8) "Well first ask, what choices does the zerg have?
15 hatch, 14-16 pool
Speedling Expand
Roach Rush
2 base muta" I don't see where you've gotten the idea that the first 2 will lose to your build.
Not to mention, this build utterly fails if he has a baneling nest, which starting to become popular against toss.
All in all I think it's very cheesy and would only work against greedy opponents who don't scout, or don't like banelings.
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And to add, on one base there is no such thing as a void ray collossi death ball. It is more like a single voidray, a single collossi, and zealots.
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TL;DR
I always stop tosses trying cheesy stuff like this, I get a evo chamber ZvP very early and if I think he's going DTs or stargate I just throw down 4 spores (2 per hatch) and I've always been fine.
Also the title is kinda strange, I've never heard of a passive attack.
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1. There is a massive flaw in what you just stated. A good zerg with infact have his lair up and running by the time this hits. Not to mention the typical zerg is going to throw down spores and build an overseer on top of those spores if you see a 4 gate that doesn't actually attack when it's supposed to. (because opening with DT's isn't something new.)
2.15 hatch/ 14 pool/ Speedling can defend this no problem. Then probably counter push you and you die. Especially if I scout you with one base. I'm going to cut drones, defend and then roll you over and giggle.
3.The ovie scout will infact see all of this, not to mention the lings that poke up the ramp every 30 seconds or so. Also we generally will have that drone we send into your base alive until about 4:30 min mark. Which will spot the dt shrine.
4. Should probably state that this is a all-in and has no follow up early in the post.
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The Dark Templar is my favorite Protoss ground unit. Thank you so much for making a strategic build using DTs that doesn't involve DT rushing! I can't wait to try out this build.
User was warned for this post
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On April 04 2011 14:06 CoSyN wrote:
The Dark Templar is my favorite Protoss ground unit. Thank you so much for making a strategic build using DTs that doesn't involve DT rushing! I can't wait to try out this build.
*facepalm* This is a dt rush...
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On April 04 2011 14:06 Killswitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 14:06 CoSyN wrote:
The Dark Templar is my favorite Protoss ground unit. Thank you so much for making a strategic build using DTs that doesn't involve DT rushing! I can't wait to try out this build. *facepalm* This is a dt rush...
It's 8 mins mark, get over it.
If he want to 4 gates like PvP, it just take 6 mins.
User was warned for this post
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Problem with this build is warp gate research is too late, you can't know for sure Zerg is going all-in or 2 bases banelings burst, and you don't have enough sentries to block the ramp again zerg with heavy pressure.
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I don't think it's wise to rely on surprising your opponents with hidden tech to win a game. It might be good to have in your arsenal, but it is just risky because it only works if your opponent screws up (with scouting or just being prepared for different strategies).
I believe you are wrong that your build would beat a good early roach attack. I would need replays of someone beating this to be convinced. If I read it right you don't get any sentires, which are important for forcefielding your ramp to cut a roach force in half.
The build also requires so much gas. 4 gates with DTs just seems impossible to transition out of if your attack fails or your build is scouted.
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On April 04 2011 14:16 hitman133 wrote:
Problem with this build is warp gate research is too late, you can't know for sure Zerg is going all-in or 2 bases banelings burst, and you don't have enough sentries to block the ramp again zerg with heavy pressure.
Yeah, the problem is definitely that Zerg will allin against your allin, not the fact that the build itself is an allin...
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On April 04 2011 13:16 BreatheDeep wrote:
Another thing I believe to be correct but correct me if I am wrong, the zerg sacks the overlord somewhere between 7:40 to 8:00 to catch a glimpse at tech tree which looks like a 4gate potentially going 6gate blink if he sees the council. This attack is designed to be a semi all-in rolling into the zerg base at about 7:50. The evo ges put down at about 7:30 and doesn't finish until about 8:20? First of all, Zergs will sac their ovy around 5:30-6:00 to check for the 4-gate. However, against you, this won't be necessary as I could keep my scouting drone alive to scout everything you do. You build a twilight council while having only 2 zealots -- that means the initial scouting drone never actually has to leave your base and will see this going down.
Second, 6gate blink??? You have one base, throw down a super early twilight council, and you think Zergs believe you are going 6gate blink?! This is so absurd it makes you look like a troll. Not only can't you support 6 gates on 1 base, but a blink build would have an earlier stalker than your build.
As I see it, your build is an all-in that relies on your opponent being terrible at scouting and playing stupidly.
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I would say my 1 base mothership+carrier build is better than this even after the nerf.
no-one starts droning off 2 bases when you don't expand when they scout 3 or more gateways. they will keep their 2 mineral line advantage until they can scout you. as soon as lair hits you are dead.
all the builds you listed are not standard and are pretty much horrible builds.
you can't 6 gate blink or deathball off 1 base you will mine out before you get more than 1 colossus and 1 voidray.
as soon as zerg sees 2 zealot they know you are teching, they would expect air since thats way more powerful than this but the reaction is pretty much the same, when they don't see you expanding or attacking at 6-7 mins, either get lair fast or get some spores.
as for zerg's point of view. have you ever even played zerg? holy... dt kills zerglings in 1 hit? wow!!!! now if each dt kills 10 lings you actually be even in resource used, not to mention gas on 1 base is worth like 3x as much as minerals so you would need to kill 20 lings with each dt to make it even. hahahahahaha have fun sitting there slicing lings all day and not getting anywhere. lair timing is about 8 min mark and will be up if zerg seen no chrono on warptech. roach ling will beat this even if your dts stay invisible until lair is up, everything but dts will die.
this is also not viable against toss because you will die to the 4 gate before you get dts. this is ok against terran if you do it correctly with a timed expo and tech switch.
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two zealots when taking both gases is EXTREMELY suspicious, even if you make 4 gates. DT builds just seem obvious, as you keep poking with lings they simply don't have a massive unit count.
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There are so many things wrong with this post in afraid to post in fear of bannage.
I mean the bottom line besides the impossibility of hiding this build is the fact that the risk/reward factor just isn't there. You are going to take a HUGE risk that the zerg player wont have a quick enough lair(which wont happen too often even in the masters league). And the reward might be a few drone kills. And the downside is that if he does have a lair, it will be impossible for u to get an expo up without a high sentry count. Meaning the zerg can deny ur nat while taking the map.
Its great seeing more p's experiment with dt's as i think they have an untapped potential, but simply relying on a strategy not to be scouted and using that the foundation of your play is not healthy for your sc2 development.
p.s. as a random player, ur POV of the zerg possibilities is very wrong. The only strength i can see in your build is that you can delay a lair, but once a zerg doesnt see any sort of expo plan coming they will want to pump queens and lair/overseer.
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Maybe a good opening, but if it doesn't work you are almost dead. You dont have an expo, since you wasted your money making reinforcement. Dont even have a forge, and if you have it, you will make canons, so zerg will make his 3rd very easy. Also, since you got DT, your tech-tree is far away from colossi.. so it becomes hard to play a good mid-game.
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EPT
